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RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (no trolling)   You are logged in as Guest
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cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010
 

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to estebanana

Yes but they are still better sounding than the Alhambras , rodriguez etc. It's very diffuclt to find a luthier or a hand made student guitar around here .
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 2:43:47
 
estebanana

Posts: 9358
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to cRobson12

quote:

And yes I see what you mean with the guitar "build" statement. But they are just words and I think that they get the point across.


The only thing that separates artists from corporate schlubs that want to sell you stuff in an unethical manner is our language and our style. Language and the precise or imprecise way you use it means everything. Often it's ok to just get your point across, but if you put effort into articulating your point the meaning is clearer.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 2:51:06
 
estebanana

Posts: 9358
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to cRobson12

quote:

What about.... assemble, cast, compile, compose, contrive, engineer, erect, evolve, fabricate, fashion, fit together, forge, form, frame, jerry-build, knock together, make, manufacture, model, prefabricate, produce, put together, put up, raise, rear, reconstruct?


It's great you made a whole list of words to choose from, but to call it a "build" by comparison to all these great words and ways of expressing it sounds uneducated.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 2:53:46
 
cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010
 

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to estebanana

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 2:58:39
 
Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to cRobson12

Arrogant is not a word I would choose for your insinuation that I'm retarded or lack an education.
More descriptive words usually spring to mind whenever I come across someone who feels the need to insult and put others down just to make themselves feel ever so important.
Next time you get up off your throne don't forget to flush, I'd rather not smell that kind of ****.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 4:06:30
 
avimuno

 

Posts: 598
Joined: Feb. 9 2007
From: Paris, France

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to cRobson12

Damn... It's funny that 'Andalusian Guitars' and Ruben are still causes for such passion.

I've met Ruben a couple of times and he seemed like an overly enthusiastic geek to me... Nothing wrong with that, we are all pretty much that when it comes to what we are passionate about. But the problem with Ruben is that he seems to couple that trait with a very advanced state of megalomania - it's quite simply a wrong combination.
But I'm in no position to judge, and apologize if I've seemed harsh... it's his life and his opinions. We live in a world that values individualism and freedom of speech, and as Voltaire would have said it: "Sir, I despise you and your ideas, but I would give my life so that you have the right to express them"... Summarizes my feelings entirely.

What does however constitute a point where I would voice my humble opinion strongly is what lawyers call 'misrepresentation'... and it's exactly what Ruben does with 'Andalusian Guitars'. It's too easy to claim to sell an Aston Martin when you're selling a Renault. But then again, most people playing Andalusian guitars are beginners who have not yet learned what a good flamenco guitar should be like, so it does not really harm the honest luthier who works hard at delivering the best possible instrument at a fair price.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 6:37:29
 
rogeliocan

Posts: 811
Joined: Nov. 23 2009
From: Canada

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to avimuno

quote:

I've met Ruben a couple of times and he seemed like an overly enthusiastic geek to me... Nothing wrong with that, we are all pretty much that when it comes to what we are passionate about. But the problem with Ruben is that he seems to couple that trait with a very advanced state of megalomania - it's quite simply a wrong combination.


Well said, I also met him, at the 12th fret in Toronto and he was pushy. If you want to kill time, visit other guitar forums and see what you find on Ruben. Only one forum did not end up kicking him out, one from France, only because he could not speak French. Read the developments in the threads, it's amusing.

quote:

is what lawyers call 'misrepresentation'...

Right on too.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 10:45:51
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I absolutely hate it when people call making a guitar a "build". It's incorrect English.


What part of England are you from? Maybe "construct" is a better word but to "build a guitar" is colloquial and correct. I dont think a build requires a pre set builders plan. For example a beaver builds a dam...thats perfectly correct.
I can understand your point of frustration with exact terminology but please dont state that its not English. England has many guitar builders!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 11:35:06
 
Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Pimientito

I tend to say "guitarmaker" and that "he makes guitars".

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 11:54:56
 
Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Pimientito

http://www.guitarbuilder.org/

"Before mid 2000 Andrew Guyton was almost unknown in the field of guitar building. Since that time he has established himself as one of the premiere guitar builders in the UK.The Guyton Guitar Company specializes in building high quality instruments..."
http://www.guytonguitars.com/

"Brian is one of the UK's top guitar builders and repairers.."
http://www.brianeastwoodguitars.co.uk/


I'm just saying that the term "building a guitar" is acceptable and common English...certainly in England. I wouldn't even go to the bother to make this point but I took exception to the statement that " It's retarded language and retarded thinking." Are we still talking about English language or people here?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 13:50:48
 
GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to avimuno

quote:

ORIGINAL: avimuno
But then again, most people playing Andalusian guitars are beginners who have not yet learned what a good flamenco guitar should be like, so it does not really harm the honest luthier who works hard at delivering the best possible instrument at a fair price.

But doesn't it harm the beginner who may have overpaid for his/her instrument owing to their lack of experience and knowledge?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 14:17:59
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

First of all, never, ever use the term "build" in front of me. Besides being an assault on the English language, it makes me crazy raving mad enough to cut someone with a prison shiv. Please don't in my company refer to your guitar making project as a "build". Thanks.


Build, used as a verb, is a perfectly legitimate use of the English language when referring to "building a guitar." It is a synonym for "construct" and any number of other verbs referring to assembling or making something according to a plan. It certainly is not "an assault on the English language," except, perhaps, to someone for whom the English language is an extremely limited tool for expression.

Cheers,

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 14:28:38
 
Pawo

 

Posts: 104
Joined: Mar. 15 2010
 

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

Build, used as a verb, is a perfectly legitimate use of the English language


Just my two cents worth but I think the person didn't like the use of the word 'build' when used as a noun...when one talks about 'my build' etc....

Cheers

Dave
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 15:03:37
Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to cRobson12

[Deleted by Admins]
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 15:23:30
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Guest

POPCORN TIME!!!

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 15:31:17
 
Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Guest

quote:

FACT: the first few pages of this thread were from SATISFIED OWNERS of his guitars and then the trolls came on board and reduced this thread to another pissing contest.

FACT: The people posting sh!t about Andalusian guitars have never even laid hands on one of them or tested them out and are slagging his stuff because he p1ssed them off when he joined this foro.

FACT: As for a producer "misrepresenting" his goods, if anyone posting on this thread actually made it to law school (highly doubt it) they'd realise there is a very fine distinction between "misrepresentation" and "marketing" (selling a banjo and calling it a guitar is misrepresentation, selling an ordinary guitar and calling it the best ever made is marketing ... thats capitalism at its best, deal with it.)

FACT: Using concepts you know nothing off to try and bolster your argument usually ends up having the opposite effect ... its called PARADOX.


It seems you are the one speaking of things you know nothing of or you have a very short memory.

The back story is complex, nasty and did indeed involve real lawyers - one of them was ours, the other a fake one "from Madrid" (with childish mistakes someone raised in Mexico might make with their legal terms and spelling) starting a legal action against me. That might be considered a felony in the countries of North America, I would imagine.

The product is questionably represented by European standards of "country of origin" (if it still says "Spain" on the label and is called "Andalusian"), the PdL endorsement is far from solid and the multiple false identities posting here in order to continue this 'marketing' ploy were the last straw.

So who are the trolls in that scenario? Us? Gimme a break.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 15:40:12
 
CuerdasDulces

Posts: 277
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Toronto

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to cRobson12

Hey Cory,

I tried to warn you.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 15:41:07
 
GuitarVlog

Posts: 441
Joined: Mar. 19 2009
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Guest

quote:

ORIGINAL: nealf
... selling an ordinary guitar and calling it the best ever made is marketing ...


Anyone remember that Dilbert cartoon quote?

"I know what we do seems like criminal fraud, but it's not - it's marketing."


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 15:45:42
 
Sean

Posts: 672
Joined: Jan. 20 2011
From: Canada

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to cRobson12

I built this guitar 2 years ago and on that particular build I did not follow any plans.
The guitar was inspired by Torres but with a slightly larger plantilla drawn by me and altered strut angles to match.
I know all this because I was there at the time.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 17:45:51
 
cRobson12

Posts: 288
Joined: Dec. 8 2010
 

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to CuerdasDulces

quote:

Hey Cory,

I tried to warn you.



I should have listened
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 18:02:27
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to GuitarVlog

I've never tried one of those guitars, but reckon from the appearance they'd be OK guitars as guitars go. Maybe not at the price.

But can anyone tell me why ANY major artist or celebrity would publicly endorse a commercial product (in writing) and allow it to be used in advertising "ad infinitum", for ALL guitars coming from that house completely free of contract or charge?

Doesn't make sense to me.

Especially if that artist or celebrity has their own (signed) and business contract covered product on the market at the same time?

What sensible artist's business manager would even dream of that?

(Let alone that apparently Paco's business manager even denies this claim and is threatening legal action.)

That FACT alone, and the whole **** marketing campaign has frankly just put me off the brand, regardless of how good they are.

I'd rather get a signed guitar from a good and established Luthier myself, who is not ashamed of putting his signature on his work or disclosing where his workshop is located.

(By the way, I have a few "Paco de Lucia" cejillas for sale if anybody is interested, only $150 a time...total bargain IMO.)

(Paco tells me personally that they are the best cejillas he's ever used and contributes a lot to his sound.. )

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 18:34:17
 
Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Ron.M

quote:

I'd rather get a signed make from a good and established Luthier myself, who is not ashamed of putting his signature on his work or disclosing where his workshp is located.


After having done a little research on this forum and elsewhere, and after thinking about it at length, I think that this is the only way to go. So much so that I am starting to get turned off of Condes, thanks again to some members who have raised some questions about these enigmatic guitars and their astronomical price tags. Certainly as one forum member alluded to, when you buy a Mercedes you know you are getting incredible quality, so does it matter who built it and where? Well, a guitar is not the same as a car to me, and I want to know that one man spent a lot of time and energy and effort constructing a guitar and can put his name on it with pride, and I also want to be able to support men who make a living building guitars in their workshops like Anders and so many others. At least until they get so big that they must have other men build guitars under their supervision!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 19:02:08
 
bursche

Posts: 1182
Joined: Jul. 19 2007
From: Frankfurt, Germany

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Harry

quote:

want to know that one man spent a lot of time and energy and effort constructing a guitar and can put his name on it with pride.


Sounds rather romantic, but if this is the story behind a good guitar then it is the best choice. In that case: "regardless of its maker".

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 19:10:03
 
Harry

Posts: 390
Joined: Jun. 24 2010
From: Montreal, Canada

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to bursche

Bursche,

I love your new signature!

Excellent!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 19:11:53
 
estebanana

Posts: 9358
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Sean

quote:

Arrogant is not a word I would choose for your insinuation that I'm retarded or lack an education.
More descriptive words usually spring to mind whenever I come across someone who feels the need to insult and put others down just to make themselves feel ever so important.
Next time you get up off your throne don't forget to flush, I'd rather not smell that kind of ****.


I was not meaning to insult you. Take it as comedic riffing not insult.

Which BTW my throne is inlayed with mother of pearl dragons and I have my ass-istant flush it for me. Royalty should never have to touch a common toilet handle.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 20:36:12
 
estebanana

Posts: 9358
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

Build, used as a verb, is a perfectly legitimate use of the English language when referring to "building a guitar." It is a synonym for "construct" and any number of other verbs referring to assembling or making something according to a plan.


I don't object to build being used as a verb as it is a verb. What grates on my ear for English is when it is used to say something like: Hey, how's your build going? - English has lots of nuance and people who use language can use it any way they like, but it does not mean it sounds good.

How is your build going sounds bad to my ear, and it sounds uneducated to my ear. So does the oft heard construction: Where you at?

Everyone has language bugaboos and pet peeves. How is your build - and - Where you at- are two things that sound horrible to me.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 20:45:44
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Everyone has language bugaboos and pet peeves. How is your build - and - Where you at- are two things that sound horrible to me.

I hate when folk in the UK say "step up to the plate".
There is no fuccking plate in the UK except for a dinner plate.

I wrote into the Today Programme about a year ago saying that John Humphries and others got on my tits about using that expression and also the one... "between a rock and a hard place", nearly every day.

It's not funny... it's not smart...it's just fk'all crap American koolspeak...

Amazingly... he hasn't used these expressions since!

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 21:16:13
 
Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Ron.M

You should hear my colleages at Microsoft:

"Playbook" - how to do something
"Go to" as a noun i.e. where to go for help
"Ask" - as a noun i.e. this is our ask
"Battlecard" - competive information
"Call to action" - go do something
"Reach out" - ask for help
"Ecosystem" - people selling stuff

yadda yadda....

Get's my goat, it does

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 22:04:39
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3459
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

How is your build going sounds bad to my ear, and it sounds uneducated to my ear. So does the oft heard construction: Where you at?


I totally agree with you. Sorry, I misunderstood your original complaint about the use of "build."

My pet peeve is the constant use in the U.S. of the phrase, "coming from," as in "I know where he's coming from," meaning one knows what lies behind his thinking or actions. More coolspeak. And it is downright ludicrous the number of articles by reputable journalists who use the term "penultimate" to mean the final, the ultimate of whatever they are writing about. It means second from last, and it confirms once again my opinion that aspiring journalists should obtain a degree in history, political science, or English; anything but a degree in journalism!

Cheers,

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 22:11:16
 
estebanana

Posts: 9358
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: "Andalusian" Guitars (... (in reply to Escribano

quote:

You should hear my colleages at Microsoft:

"Playbook" - how to do something
"Go to" as a noun i.e. where to go for help
"Ask" - as a noun i.e. this is our ask
"Battlecard" - competive information
"Call to action" - go do something
"Reach out" - ask for help
"Ecosystem" - people selling stuff

yadda yadda....

Get's my goat, it does


I hate when Yuppie art directors say impactful. Is it impactful? Why can't they just say: Does it have impact?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2011 23:02:00
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