thumb upstrokes

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thumb upstrokes

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Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

thumb upstrokes

Hello!
how often do u folks use a thumb upstroke for single notes with the thumb??

(I dont mean alzapua or rasgueados)

i rarely see it indicated in tabs and just came across one in paco tangos falseta.

do modern players use this technique much or is it becoming old hat??

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2010 10:14:05

Elie

Posts: 1837
Joined: Apr. 10 2010

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Stu)

quote:

how often do u folks use a thumb upstroke for single notes with the thumb??

never , except when I PRACTICE pulgar or alzapua

quote:

do modern players use this technique much or is it becoming old hat??

I give my vote to the second choice , because I've never seen any modern player doing it .

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2010 10:34:49

Munin

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Stu)

Chicuelo does it a lot from what I've seen. I think it's pretty awesome if done right.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2010 15:57:47

Andy Culpepper

Posts: 3023
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Stu)

It was/is very common in Morón style playing.
I wouldn't say it's old hat, I think Gerardo uses it a lot too. I don't think any technique can be considered "uncool" in flamenco.. it can always be reinvented and used for a cool effect by somebody.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2010 16:26:44

Mike_Kinny

Posts: 689
Joined: Feb. 12 2009

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Andy Culpepper)

quote:

I don't think any technique can be considered "uncool" in flamenco.

Exactly my thoughts. There is nothing old in any technique. They are just techniques and guitarists mix and match to their likings.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2010 16:45:18

Ricardo

Posts: 14839
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Stu)

They ALL use it. Sort of like cooking with the same ingredients but different amounts to taste.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2010 19:41:08

Chiste de Gales

Posts: 298
Joined: Jan. 13 2009

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Stu)

I use that technique, but not very often. It all depends on where the notes land on the guitar and if it is most comfortable to do it that way.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 28 2010 22:21:49

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Stu)

i like the sound of this technique, especially on the G string. you can get that oud-ish sound. it's also fun to mess around with and change things that are normally in 8th's into 16th's.

plus, it probably makes your thumb upstrokes stronger in general, say for alzapua.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2010 5:24:50

el prado

Posts: 13
Joined: May 7 2010

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Stu)

Hi. They usually indicate this by using a short upward arraow, as in the two examples. The first is in solea, and the second is an extract from an etude by Andres Batista, Although he himself refers to it as "Alzapua en una cuerda", or alzapua on one string.

If you take a scale and repeat each note three times in triplets. down, up, down, you will quickly form a habit, and will soon play it as if you know no other more comfortable way of playing it.
Regards,
El Prado de Sevilla

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2010 14:42:05

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to el prado)

Hi El Prado,

Now THAT'S partcipating!

Thanks for your input. Much appreciated.

(We all benefit from other's experiences and knowledge here.)

Are you still resident in Sevilla? Or is it a place you visit often? Any vids?

Sorry if there was any misunderstanding on my behalf earlier.

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2010 18:21:19

Stu

Posts: 2537
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Ron.M)

Thankyou for your answers fellas! i guess theres no more to be said.... but i will endeavour to try this single note upstroke more.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2010 19:16:07

mark indigo

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Stu)

do you have Gerardo's Encuentro vid? there is some stuff there in the thumb section about single string upstrokes. It's not like everyone uses it all the time, i think some players use it more than others.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2010 21:29:54

el prado

Posts: 13
Joined: May 7 2010

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Ron.M)

Ron, let bygones be bygones.
Thanks for the encouragement. Since 2003, I have tried to study in Sevilla as often and as long as I could.
I studied with Manuel Berraquero, Eduardo Rebollar, Juan Maria Real, Juan Jose socorro, Lito, el Pulga. ...... No big names, but some of them are really good teachers.
Regards,
El Prado de Sevilla

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 29 2010 23:33:38

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Stu)

Interesting thread. A few years ago I started to develop stiffness in my right hand. I first noticed it with arpeggios’. Up to that point I hardly practiced them as they came so effortlessly. It got so bad, I had absolutely no power or control. Picado was out of the question. It got to the point I was thinking of selling my guitars and hanging it up, but adversity can sometimes be the mother of invention.

I had never heard of anyone using the thumb like a pick with down and upstrokes in flamenco, but my theory was I may be able to get some enjoyment from the guitar, even if it wasn’t traditional. I have been working on it for the last three or so years and can play a fake picado with my thumb at pretty good speed and it doesn’t sound half bad. I can’t play at Paco speed, but who can?

The problem with the thumb up stroke is it doesn’t involve the flesh so it sounds different from the down stroke. You have to really work at thumb angle to make it sound passable. The best for me has been to keep a fairly high wrist position so the thumb upstroke is more at a 90 degree angle to the string. If you keep the thumb flatter to the string, the upstroke sounds thin. The best way for me to practice it, is to just vamp on scales. It doesn’t sound exactly like true picado, but not bad. I can hit 16ths at about 140 which is more an issue with my left hand versus the right.

It’s cool to see other players are using it and I’m not alone.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2010 17:32:47

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Stu)

quote:

The problem with the thumb up stroke is it doesn’t involve the flesh so it sounds different from the down stroke.

Given your circumstances, if you want to try something a little far out, let your thumb nail grow really long and just use it exactly like a pick. No flesh on the downstroke. The upstroke will still sound a little different, but not as much. I think you would probably be able to even develop a bit more speed that way. Just a thought.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2010 19:13:12

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Stu)

quote:

Given your circumstances, if you want to try something a little far out, let your thumb nail grow really long and just use it exactly like a pick. No flesh on the downstroke. The upstroke will still sound a little different, but not as much. I think you would probably be able to even develop a bit more speed that way. Just a thought.

Tried it. To get a picado staccato sound you need the flesh on the down stroke to mute the string from the up stroke. If I play slow what you get is the “flesh thumb” sound with a thinner up stroke, but played at speed the next down stroke mutes the string like staccato picado. Played fast enough you don’t really notice the thinner up stroke.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2010 20:09:55

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Stu)

quote:

Tried it. To get a picado staccato sound you need the flesh on the down stroke to mute the string from the up stroke. If I play slow what you get is the “flesh thumb” sound with a thinner up stroke, but played at speed the next down stroke mutes the string like staccato picado. Played fast enough you don’t really notice the thinner up stroke.

Patrick -
I don't entirely understand what you mean.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2010 20:28:21

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Aug. 30 2010 20:52:27

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2010 20:52:14

rombsix

Posts: 7816
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Stu)

http://www.4shared.com/video/RsNq0fGx/Amir-Haddad-Pulgar-up-down.html

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2010 20:55:10

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Stu)

Patrick –

I'm trying to get clear what you mean. I can understand what you mean by the downstroke muting the vibrating string of the upstroke, but then what mutes the vibrating string of the downstroke, if muting the strokes is your intention.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2010 21:44:38

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Stu)

quote:

Could you run that by me again. I don't entirely understand what you mean. Thanks.

Flamenco picado in my view needs that fast attack, staccato tone to sound right. We have all been taught to stop the string just played with the next finger in regular picado to get that short sustain, punchy tone.

When we strike a string with our thumb it continues to ring until we stop it. So the first down stroke with the thumb is ringing, if we play an up stroke on the same string it is really not muted rather plucked again (and with no flesh). Only on the next down stroke does the string get muted by the flesh of the thumb (assuming it was the one just played). So you see we can’t duplicate the mechanics of picado with thumb alone.

Like I said before, if you play fast enough, the un-muted up stroke blends in somewhat and it sounds more like proper picado. I have worked on this a bunch and just until recently can I see a lot of progress.

The Haddad video shows the same way I do it. I saw this same video a year or so ago and felt, well if he can do, it, I must be on the right track.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 30 2010 22:22:26

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Stu)

Patrick -

A few things come to mind. First, you haven't said whether or not you're playing apoyando with P on the downstroke. I assume that you are, in which case that exacerbates the difference in sound between down and up strokes. If you were to play the P downstroke as a free stroke you would get a more evenly balanced sound. I think you could also get more speed that way. It might be something to look at.

Next, though most flamenco players advocate and play picado staccato, that is not universally the case. I see nothing wrong with some variety in all aspects of flamenco, and it is not chiseled in granite that you must play picado staccato. I have heard players play picado more legato, and it sounds fine. Below, Pepe Romero plays a fairly legato picado in some places and it comes off perfectly fine, even in Bulerias.

Finally, you might consider just playing nothing but P downstrokes apoyando. This can be done pretty fast. Look at the short run at the very end – about 5:25.

Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2010 3:26:39

Patrick

Posts: 1189
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Portland, Oregon

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Stu)

quote:

A few things come to mind. First, you haven't said whether or not you're playing apoyando with P on the downstroke. I assume that you are, in which case that exacerbates the difference in sound between down and up strokes. If you were to play the P downstroke as a free stroke you would get a more evenly balanced sound. I think you could also get more speed that way. It might be something to look at.

Yes I am playing a rest stroke, but at fast speeds it really becomes a free stroke. You are correct that the free stroke tends to even it out better, which I have found to be the case. As for fast down strokes, I can do that pretty well, but no where close to 16ths at 140 to 150.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2010 5:26:20

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Stu)

That Pepe Romero bulerias is a complete joke. wow... Awful..

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2010 6:03:04

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Stu)

that cepero one was sweeeeeet though.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2010 6:52:24

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Stu)

quote:

That Pepe Romero bulerias is a complete joke. wow... Awful..

Todd –

It's extremely interesting to hear differing opinions on different players. I am presently writing a book on the history of flamenco guitar, and I'm trying to do something a little different here. I plan to interview guitarists and include contemporary commentary and opinions by people who play flamenco guitar about famous guitarists. It would be very helpful to me if you could explain what you feel was awful about that Bulerias. That's exactly the kind of commentary about today's guitarists that I hope to include in my book, along with contemporary thought about famous guitarists of the past, which would bring a fresh perspective on those guitarists. I think it will be something different and unusual.

Thanks –
Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2010 20:17:07

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Ramon Amira)

quote:

It would be very helpful to me if you could explain what you feel was awful about that Bulerias.

Hi PC,

I didn't like the "Bulerias" either simply because it was a pastiche of Bulerias....no phrasing...no rhythm....robotically following the 12 beat compas as if being indicated by an orchestral conductor.

Even technically, the piece went beyond his Classical skills, especially on picado...although I feel he sold that to the audience as "wild..Gypsy abandon" and of no real consequence...as do other purely Classical guitarists I've heard who have decided to take on a Flamenco guitar piece for a bit of a "showcase" in the recital program.

It's just basically a piece of nothing...no soul...no anything really...

A bunch of Sabicas falsetas played incorrectly..

Just a show-off exercise for ignorant culture vultures IMO..

Pure rubbish..

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2010 20:28:17

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

robotically following the 12 beat compas as if being indicated by an orchestral conductor.

Ron, I think the sight of the orchestral players in the background pushed your anti-classical cliché button!

To me it sounds totally out of compás.
That being so, it's hardly necessary to go into detail regarding other reasons why it doesn't sound anything like flamenco.

Though I agree with you that 'he sold that to the audience as "wild..Gypsy abandon" ' - hence the big dramatic gestures (coincidentally occasioned by the necessity of doing the rasgueos up the neck where the strings are softer...)

Just listen to the original (Sabicas: Aires de Triana, from Flamenco Puro), a quick comparison makes it all clear. I was going to post a clip here but it won't take sound files in this department.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2010 20:39:14

Ramon Amira

Posts: 1025
Joined: Oct. 14 2009
From: New York City

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Stu)

Thanks for that Ron. This is exactly what I'm looking for. All that may end up in my book, assuming I get it published, and I think I will. Of course I will first request written permission to include it.

Thanks again -
Ramon

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2010 20:46:15

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: thumb upstrokes (in reply to Estevan)

Hi Estevan,

I'm not putting Romero down as a Classical guitarist or anything, but he is clearly out of his depth there and trying to follow some misunderstood concept of Bulerias he has.

John Williams is probably my favourite Classical player, yet in the late sixties he played around with Jazz for a while....and it was terrible...embarrassing...like Vicente Amigo playing Rock Music...

(BTW...on another note...a few words of wisdom I heard today was from someone relating some technical advice he got from the late jazz trumpeter Humphrey Lyttelton...)

"Never play the trumpet after having taken laxatives...."

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 31 2010 20:57:42