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A good mix of fact, speculation and questions always makes a long lasting thread! Fact: My 65 Vda y Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso blanca has a bracing pattern almost identical to the 51 Sabicas Barbero (but without the inclined harmonic bar) - plan available at http://www.luth.org/plans/classic.htm#plan42 Speculation: Barbero faked his death and secretly made guitars for the bros. Question: Does anyone know when the currenly Felipe V bracing pattern was introduced and does it appear on the Atocha and Gravina guitars? Rob
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Anders - we would have have 1st, second and third grade Picasso art. Just like we have with Conde Guitars, depending on shop and maker
quote:
Pimientito - You think you are buying a product to find out you are buying another of lesser quality with the same label on it. In any other business this would be fraud.
Anders, your last 2 answers have been so tongue in cheek, I dont know whether to agree with you or argue with you. If a Painter signs a masterwork of another painter its clearly a fraud. Now to use Rons analogy, if a Sony and Samsung TV have the same internal componants made in Taiwan, thats just product marketing.
I guess it depends on whether one regards a hand made concert instrument simply as a labelled factory product or a unique handmade piece of art. Is "la Leona" by Torres considered in the same category of instrument as one of the thousands of acoustic guitars from a chinese factory(that do not pretend to be anything but mass produced)? Can a hand made Italian sports coupé be in the same category of car as a Vauxhall princess? If the answer is Yes then the labelling doesnt matter as long as the customer gets his product. If the answer is No then I believe Condes business practices are questionable.
Anders, your last 2 answers have been so tongue in cheek, I dont know whether to agree with you or argue with you.
That was the whole idea of what I wrote. Someone has to be the joker.
I think you put the things together quite well yourself. I wont call Conde Hermanos a fraud because its spanish history to work like that but I think its OK to call it questionable.
There´s no doubt that a a lot of very good guitars have been made with the Conde label on. This cant be discussed IMO. But I have also tried some very dull ones and we only talk top of the line Condes.
They are expensive or over expensive but the second hand price is not specially high because there are so many of them. And to finish the money part, Ricardo said that he didn´t think Condes were overpriced and to this I will just add that I agree and that the thing is that the rest of us sell our guitars WAY to cheap. Everything is relative.
There´s no doubt that a a lot of very good guitars have been made with the Conde label on. This cant be discussed IMO. But I have also tried some very dull ones and we only talk top of the line Condes.
'just laid a fresh set of strings on my Conde AF/25R and it sounds like Vicente Amigo's "Reyes' ... FANTASTIC
Do you mean the actual guitar that was owned by him, or the same model of Reyes played by him?
cheers,
Ron
Oops! Sorry Ron. Seemed ludicrous enough not to be taken seriously. I do have a Reyes from the same year, but not his actual guitar. Just playing on gj's string thing earlier followed by Anders asking if gj had tried Vincente's guitar.
I guess that's a prime example of what not to do on a forum.
'just laid a fresh set of strings on my Conde AF/25R and it sounds like Vicente Amigo's "Reyes' ... FANTASTIC
oh... that's too bad, no one read my game (consitent with this thread), this was a pass for a: "are you now suggesting Manuel Reyes makes the Conde 25?"
It does sound great though, the Conde 25, and Vicente's Reyes and -really- Jim's Reyes as well.
I tried two, and with one i left my heart. Now i need to sart uploading files.
Question: Does anyone know when the currenly Felipe V bracing pattern was introduced and does it appear on the Atocha and Gravina guitars? Rob
Not sure....this 73 sobrinos has parrallel bracing Similar but not exact to my felipe V's....the sound is very similar but a touch more in the midrange (less bass and treble and overall volume...but closer in sound than to the Sanchis I own or compared...)
Thanks Ricardo. I did read somewhere that Faustino developed the bracing system rather like the current one used on Felipe V guitars sometime in the middle of his career. I guess there must be enough Forum members with a mirror and access to a Conde to tell me all I want to know! My guitar was bought in a musical instrumment auction and the severe fret wear and a sweat mark on the back of the guitar suggested pretty heavy use. Also, the contents of the guitar case inner compartment (priced in pre-decimal coinage and/or with names of companies that have long since disappeared) suggest that the main playing life was from 1965 to 1971. Rob
Question: Does anyone know when the currenly Felipe V bracing pattern was introduced and does it appear on the Atocha and Gravina guitars? Rob
Not sure....this 73 sobrinos has parrallel bracing Similar but not exact to my felipe V's....the sound is very similar but a touch more in the midrange (less bass and treble and overall volume...but closer in sound than to the Sanchis I own or compared...)
Viva Jerez! Nice sounding 73 Sobrinos Ricardo..it does have nice midrange and not as metallic sounding as the newer Condes. I think I prefer this sound. Do you know if it has a thicker top than your newer A26? The past A26s that I owned were pretty darn stiff (thicker top) for my taste and not as bright. Below is a clip of my '00 Atocha - I used an iMac mic (not so good). It has the similar parallel bracing as Felipe V but I think the top is thinner.
Do you know if it has a thicker top than your newer A26? The past A26s that I owned were pretty darn stiff (thicker top) for my taste and not as bright.
Not sure if thickness and stiffness etc were so different, I don't have a calipur. the way I got the bracing patterns was with gooseneck reading light in a pitch black room. Sort of like an X ray of the inside of the guitar. Anyway, the Sanchis was super translucent and clear, which I assume means thinner top. The condes were pretty thick and harder to see through. The Old sobrinos was especially hard to see, so I assume it is maybe a bit thicker than the new condes, but I will check again.
This has been an interesting read regarding Condes. I personally have liked most Condes I have played and think they are great guitars. I have played a couple of great conde media lunas from the Gravina shop and a couple of duds from the Felipe V shop as well as some really nice ones. Have never played an Atocha, unfortunately.
I have a question to whomever might be able to answer. I have seen some media lunas from the 70's with the "primera" label (red printing on white paper) with only a date and no signature. Does this mean it is not a "primera" media luna?
Also, I have seen a 70's media luna with a green and white label. It was a fantastic, classic Conde and seem indistinguishable from a signed primera media luna (It looks exactly like the Robje's '65 Media Luna at the top of this page).
So, what's the story here? It all seems quite confusing to me.
Checked em out again in the dark room. The sanchis was darn close to the barbero style bracing up top of this page (plan 42), and yeah super thin. The sobrinos was almost identical to the 97 conde, bracing and thicknesses. Only minor difference was of the 5 parallel braces, numbers 2 and 4 are extended on the modern conde, and go all the way up along side the soundhole. Other than that, they are the exact same plan. So this plan is as old at least as 73, and the two guitar tops were about the same thickness based on translucency.
quote:
have a question to whomever might be able to answer. I have seen some media lunas from the 70's with the "primera" label (red printing on white paper) with only a date and no signature. Does this mean it is not a "primera" media luna?
Also, I have seen a 70's media luna with a green and white label. It was a fantastic, classic Conde and seem indistinguishable from a signed primera media luna (It looks exactly like the Robje's '65 Media Luna at the top of this page).
So, what's the story here? It all seems quite confusing to me.
yeah weird, earlier in the thread I think I said I have seen a late 60's conde, it was a different color maybe green label? but actually signed and had atocha AND gravina address. It was not a media luna (had the M. Ramirez type head) but the rest of the guitar was really similar to my 73 sobrinos....so my theory was that SANCHIS and maybe others in Valencia, have been helping Conde bros starting WAY back...maybe even all the way back to esteso. Not very different than what Ramirez did except Ramirez allowed his makers to stamp their initials on each guitar if they wanted.
So does this mean that all the "Fasutino-built" and "Mariano-built" Condes are a MYTH? Perhaps they are role models of the current Felipe V shop brothers and pioneered the business model they are using now at Felipe V shop?
It's really no biggie to me because I like Conde guitars, but the myths are interesting. However, the prices for Conde Fleipe V are way over the top
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Checked em out again in the dark room. The sanchis was darn close to the barbero style bracing up top of this page (plan 42), and yeah super thin. The sobrinos was almost identical to the 97 conde, bracing and thicknesses. Only minor difference was of the 5 parallel braces, numbers 2 and 4 are extended on the modern conde, and go all the way up along side the soundhole. Other than that, they are the exact same plan. So this plan is as old at least as 73, and the two guitar tops were about the same thickness based on translucency.
I remember comparing an early Felipe V Conde A-26 to a late 90's Gravina Conde A-26 equivalent and noticed that bracing was a bit different. The Felipe V blanca had the two parallel struts extended along both sides of the soundhole and the Gravina blanca did not. Other than that the only differences were the headstock shapes and finishes- Gravina was orange and the Felipe V was natural. The Gravina actually sounded better- fuller and more even and loud. The Felipe was very dry and nasally and had a really small neck.
As consistently mentioned in this thread, no Condes are equivalent and we all must try different ones to find suited for each of us, and avoid the inevitable dud.
Checked em out again in the dark room. The sanchis was darn close to the barbero style bracing up top of this page (plan 42), and yeah super thin. The sobrinos was almost identical to the 97 conde, bracing and thicknesses. Only minor difference was of the 5 parallel braces, numbers 2 and 4 are extended on the modern conde, and go all the way up along side the soundhole. Other than that, they are the exact same plan. So this plan is as old at least as 73, and the two guitar tops were about the same thickness based on translucency.
Ricardo
Interesting..I looked into the Atocha and it had 7 seven fan braces numbers 3 and 5 were extended to the soundhole and were much thicker than the 4. The top was also more translucent (light shining through more) just like the Sanchis Lopez minus the parallel bracing going all the way to the soundhole. I looked into Carrillo PdL and it had 7 fan bracing as well but much thicker top. Sanchis Lopez had only 5 fan bracing.
Im not sure but I thought my '07 Conde A26 that I sold had 7 fan bracing as well but I could be wrong.
I have a question to whomever might be able to answer. I have seen some media lunas from the 70's with the "primera" label (red printing on white paper) with only a date and no signature. Does this mean it is not a "primera" media luna?
Also, I have seen a 70's media luna with a green and white label. It was a fantastic, classic Conde and seem indistinguishable from a signed primera media luna (It looks exactly like the Robje's '65 Media Luna at the top of this page).
There have been a lot of labels over the years. This is a rough picture for the best (signed) guitars up to the death of Faustino in 1988. Note that periods of labels overlap.
1937-58 - label black on white - signed “Conde Hermanos” in full - sometimes with hand drawn treble clef sign. Vda y Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso ….Construccion de Guitarras …Gravina 7 Madrid Headtocks were: “Esteso” style as on current FelipeV A27/28 (1937-49), “Ugly” style as seen in pictures of Nino Ricardo with his Conde (c1949-c1955) and “Media Luna” style (1953-1958)
1958 - c1971 - label brown on white/cream - initials picked out in red - abbreviated signature Vda y Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso … Construccion de Guitarras … Gravina 7 Madrid Headstocks were: “Esteso” and “Media Luna”. Media Luna usually had best looking wood (no guarantee of best sound!)
c1969 -c1973 - label brown on white/cream - initials picked out in red - abbreviated signature Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso ... Construccion de Guitarras … Gravina 7 Madrid Headstock was: “Media Luna”
C1968 – 1988 - label brown on white/cream Hermanos Conde … Sobrinos de Esteso ... Construccion de Guitarras … Gravina 7 Madrid Headstocks were: “Esteso” and “Media Luna” Media Luna usually had best looking wood (no guarantee of best sound!)
Other labels for non-signed guitars included the brown label (various periods), a red on white label with the Gravina and Atocha addresses (c1967), a label with the Atcoha address - black on white with “Conde” and “Doming Esteso” picked out in red (1964-1965 seen), labels with address of the Pozuela factory (1957-1968), and various green labels, some with the Gravina and Atocha addresses. Dated labels indicate better quality – but not always.
Thanks for the breakdown regarding Conde/Esteso labels. Earlier I mentioned red on white labels, I guess I meant the "brown label". I have only seen the brown labels and green and white label.
So what is the difference between the signed and unsigned brown labels- is the signed the primera class and the unsigned being a segunda class. Kind of like the brown labeled A-26's with signature and date vs. the brown label A-28 without the signature and a date only.
Anyway, it all seems so confusing to me and perhaps meaningless.
Anyway, it all seems so confusing to me and perhaps meaningless.
You could be right. Look at a guitar and play it - then you will know if it is any good! A label is just one small piece of information about a guitar and increasingly you can't rely on it. It needs one of the big names to promote a campaign for honest labels. This is my favourite honest label. Rob
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May I ask how you knew it was fake? Was it the label or instrument that gave it away?
I have been offered yet another guitar but this time it seems too cheap to be true. I checked out the conde web site for pricings and was a bit concerned to see this warning.
WARNING INFORMATION: "We have found out fake guitars on sale, reportedly made by our firm. These fake guitars are shown on Ebay, auction online webpage and by an individual in Spain. We kindly ask our customers to be extremely careful whenever buying any piece outside our workshop".
Here is the label. The signature looks OK but there is no model number written on the label. I hae noticed that Felipe V and Atocha write the model number inside but Gravina leave it blank.
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