RE: Conde Questions

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RE: Conde Questions

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jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sean

So Hauser asked to see Segovia´s guitar and measured it thoroughly. However, it appears that he did not make an exact copy, but used it as a basis, and presented Segovia with a new and different guitar every year. It was not until between 1934 and 1937 that he finally came up with a guitar which Segovia liked.

Precisely the reverse happened with José Ramirez, who began to present guitars to Segovia to wean him away from the Hauser, but it was not until 1961 that Segovia returned to play a Ramirez.

Sean,
I respect your experience and knowledge of guitars but I had the opportunity to examine a Hauser I made adjacent to the one Segovia played for years. It was owned by Manuel Lopez-Ramos, the date on it was 1936 if I remember correctly. I didn't see any similarity between this guitar and early M. Ramirez guitars. Segovia himself said that the Hauser developed a problem with a couple of strings (I'm not quoting exactly just using my aging memory) otherwise he would never have stopped using it. The one Maestro Ramos had was a remarkable guitar with that typically nasal trebly voice of Hauser I but I doubt it was as good as the one Segovia played.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2009 6:49:30

kovachian

Posts: 506
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: Americanistan

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to TANúñez)

Segovia claimed to have "saved the guitar from the gypsies". Not a very nice thing to say huh!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2009 7:05:59

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to elkabong!)

Rudy,

Lovely guitars. Do you have sound samples?

Cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2009 10:18:07

elkabong!

Posts: 51
Joined: Mar. 31 2006

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ricardo) 1 votes

Hey Ricardo;
I hope you're keeping well man !
Personally; I don't think it's 'too expensive'. When you consider the 2nd generation 'Conde/Sanchis' A26's are also $10,000.00 and even way more $$$$$ for the "Cadillac Felipe V " models.
You & I were just fortunate enough to land our 70's Condes at the right price. AND they're "GOOD ONES" !
( Having said that, I should quantify that I haven't seen or heard yours. but becuase you seem to be pleased with & still own it (?). I assume it MUST BE a great guitar...)

AS for the economy..yes, it does suck... Bad for everyone,

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2009 16:40:32

elkabong!

Posts: 51
Joined: Mar. 31 2006

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Jim Opfer) 1 votes

Hi Jim;
No, sorry I don't. But as I state in the auction for the '72 Faustino Conde; if you've seen the Camaron "Live in Paris '87" DVD; the 70's Conde that Tomatito is playing, sounds virtually IDENTICAL to my '72
Cheers;
Rudy

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 13 2009 16:44:12

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to jshelton5040)

quote:

Segovia claimed to have "saved the guitar from the gypsies"

What he actually said was "I have saved the guitar from the noisy fingers of the flamencos" I used to find that insulting too but you have to remember that the guitar had not been recognised as a classical instrument before the time. Segovia heard Rumbas, Tango and Bulerias all the time but recognised the harmonic possibilities of the guitar as a concert instrument. Also flamenco musicians were not (in general) as musically advanced as they are today.

John -Segovia asked Ramirez III to repair his Hauser with the following words "my Hauser guitar has fallen ill. It has a strange vibration, and furthermore there are two notes on the first string that do not have the same intensity as the others."

Ramirez was then able to examine that guitar very carefully. He wrote in his "things about the guitar" that "....there was something that gave me food for thought. The thicknesses in some areas were considerably greater compared to those traditionally used by Spanish guitar makers"

Here is the reference I was thinking of to the small boys sweeping up.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2009 1:55:27

Guest

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to jshelton5040)

Hola

Nice posts, Pimientito.

I have only played one Santos, from the 30s, with Manuel Ramirez label. It is quite pleasant, but with its small body and old style construction, it bears no resemblance to a modern guitar.

I have used its headstock as part of a fan of various guitar heads in the cover of my homenaje recording of José Millán, who died last year. If I knew how to upload, I might be able to send acopy, though it is not yet finished.

We could have a competition to see who can correctly identify all the guitars

Suerte

Sean

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2009 6:01:07

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Guest)

I owned a Santos Hernandez too. It was a Ramirez with SH stamped in the corner of the label. It was light as a feather and quite delicate. It would have been originally strung in gut and the increased tension of modern strings didnt do it any good. In the end it was not much practical use as live guitar and was worth too much too hang on to and keep in a cabinet. I bought a Conde AND a Gerundino wth the money

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 14 2009 8:35:48

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 18 2009 14:31:08

elkabong!

Posts: 51
Joined: Mar. 31 2006

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to jshelton5040) 1 votes

Okay, so this is becoming a Headstock "Show & Tell" session huh ?

Here's my '72 peghead & '76 gearhead. Both Gravina 7's.

Both very "Un-Sanchis-Like", don't you think ?...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 19 2009 3:58:36

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Guest)

Ok my search continues. Im learning an awful lot about Condes on the way here. I have been offered 2 more different Condes today. They are both A26 models.
This first one is a 2005 Gravina 7. Here is the headstock to compare with 2 in the previous post.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2009 7:57:05

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)

I wont bore you all with the label again. Here is the guitar. Its immaculate and I doubt its been played. Fingerboard is clean and there isn't a finger mark anywhere.
Price: A little under 4000 euros

BUT and this is a big BUT.....it doesnt sound that great. Dont get me wrong, it sounds like a Conde but compared to the "Viejin" Atocha I posted earlier there is no comparison. I was very disappointed playing this guitar. Its very comfortable to play but there is a distinct lack of volume and attack. In fact my 19 year old Sanchiz A28 sounds almost the same. So here we have a beautiful looking guitar, probably 6000 euros new that sounds and plays like a 2000 Euro A28.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2009 8:06:59

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)

wow... you really are ammassing a volume of very detailed information. However, on the one at hand, not that i would want to encourage you to take that risk, but simply to share my experience, i had the same "apparent" problem with my Conde initially. I felt it sounded dull and volume-less, nearly as good as a Manuel Rodriguez student model i had for a tenth of the price. But after a few weeks it opened up. It is still not as loud as other guitars, but so balanced, brillinat and genuinely "flamenco" i never get tired of it.

After trying so many guitars, the "scent" becomes cloudy; ideally one should have a chance to play the "candidate" for two weeks, at least, before deciding... but i had to change more guitars than girlfriends, because of the "blind decision" !!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2009 8:23:30

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)

The vendor had some more Condes though and I learned a thing or 2. He said that Faustino built his last guitar around 88/89 so pretty much every Conde since then has been built by someone else. But surely you dont mean the 16,000 Felipe V models too? I asked. Now I know why Sean was very reluctant to post exactly who is making what. I tried a Felipe V for the first time today. What do you get for your extra 8000 euros? Well you get a beautiful guitar with a beautiful label and a slightly different headstock that IS NOT made by Sanchiz. Could it be that the Luthier is not even from Spain? Does it sound and play better than a top A26? Does it play 8000 euros better? Everyone is entitiled to their opinion but mine was that I would rather buy 4 fantastic guitars for that money.

So the second A26 was a well used Atocha Amarillo. Its got heavy signs of playing on the back and top. Bargain price of under 2500 euros. What to do? The price of the "Viejin" Atocha has been dropped too so its even more tempting to go for that one. Saying that Emilio Maya suggested last night that we could drive to Valencia and buy the equivalent of an A26 direct from Sanchiz for around 1550 euros. Thats quite a tempting idea too.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2009 8:26:48

Guest

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2009 13:17:45

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to elkabong!)

Elkabong,

Those headstocks look perfect. How are the guitsras to play?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2009 15:37:34

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)

Pimientito,

That's another design.
The carving is not as wide as the shoulders of the head. It's a bit like the picture gj posted earlier on in this thread.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 21 2009 15:39:25

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

Saying that Emilio Maya suggested last night that we could drive to Valencia and buy the equivalent of an A26 direct from Sanchiz for around 1550 euros. Thats quite a tempting idea too.

I have certainly noticed the similarities, but the bracing is very different (thicker top and parallel braces of conde vs thin top fan braces of sanchis), and the final sound is different. My friend did frequency response tests on a bunch of his guitars, and the sanchis were very different again from Conde. So you can get a guitar very similar, but not "equivalent". Believe me I was hoping so myself because of the price difference. Even the top line Sanchis by Carpio is different...

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 22 2009 13:12:19

TANúñez

Posts: 2559
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
From: TEXAS

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

I have certainly noticed the similarities, but the bracing is very different (thicker top and parallel braces of conde vs thin top fan braces of sanchis), and the final sound is different. My friend did frequency response tests on a bunch of his guitars, and the sanchis were very different again from Conde. So you can get a guitar very similar, but not "equivalent". Believe me I was hoping so myself because of the price difference. Even the top line Sanchis by Carpio is different...

I have come across some Sanchis braced like Conde's with the parallel braces but these were all on their FExtra models. They do not do this on any other model. I don't know why only a few have had these brace patterns. Maybe at some point these were going to be "Condes" but didn't make the cut.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 22 2009 14:10:48

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

My friend did frequency response tests on a bunch of his guitars, and the sanchis were very different again from Conde. So you can get a guitar very similar, but not "equivalent". Believe me I was hoping so myself because of the price difference. Even the top line Sanchis by Carpio is different...

Thanks for the heads up....I thought it sounded too good to be true. It also explains why everyone else isn't doing just that!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2009 0:49:13

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Guest)

quote:

No one knows who's making the Felipe V primera guitars

Thats a great reason to think about spending 16,000 to buy one then isnt it

quote:

Anyone "claiming" to have that info and then not releasing it in order to propagate the myth is frankly full of sh!t.

What myth are referring to here? The myth that Conde have been outsourcing to other other guitar makers and putting their own labels in the guitars? This whole thread has been about the relationship between Sanchis and Conde.

Its pretty clear that since 1989 most Conde guitars have been made by other guitarreros in Madrid and also in Valencia. The top Felipe V are made in Madrid. As close as I can ACCURATELY post they are constructed by a German Luthier. They are certainly not Sanchis. I have not met the luthier or tried his guitars so I cant comment or compare them....or say if its 100 per cent true...but this is what I am led to believe. I am not keen to publically post names until I can be sure that what I have heard is true.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2009 1:08:04

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2009 10:28:43

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Guest)

Incredible. I feel that we are so close to settle this myth or mistery... yet a slippery answer is teasing us. We cannot state that we are sure the Conde brothers are not building their guitars, as they claim that they are, until we find the "corpus delicti", the "smoking gun" .... the "substitute builder(s).

I met with my friend from GSI recently and he swore that the Conde Brothers have in turn formally confirmed that they build all of the top-notch (26-25- and Felipe V).

While i love my Conde, learning that an "assortment" of builders are working on the brand would open the doors to insecurity about which one is risponsible for the better ones and which for the worse.

Bravo Piementito, you press-on and something is giving (i feel)....

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2009 11:06:23

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

have in turn formally confirmed that they build all of the top-notch (26-25- and Felipe V).

Well gj,

Lehman Bros formally confirmed that there were no problems with the Bank.....

We can ALL issue formal statements....

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2009 12:34:47

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Ron.M)

quote:

Well gj,
Lehman Bros formally confirmed that there were no problems with the Bank.....
We can ALL issue formal statements....
cheers,
Ron

Yeap... there is a long list of them "formal statements" later awkwardly disavowed, ain't there?

I think it is safe to presume that the conclusions reached in this thread reflect the reality of the Conde business model, ie "outsourcing".

However, there is no more than some indicia and well thought conjectures to support them. Until then these people will swear they are the builders. But I am not sure they are truly worried about perjury.

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2009 13:33:26

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to jshelton5040) 2 votes

Hi guys, an advice (now I´m going down to below 0 in my score again , but this I accept. Its the name of the game here on foroflamenco

)

Dont even try to find out who´s making the guitars.
When you find out, it´ll all just be boring reality and Conde guitars will just be left as well build and overprized. flamenco guitars made by mr. X

Stay with the myth. Thats what makes Conde what they are now. Not reality. Just look at the time you can use on this topic. Its been up I dont know how many times during the almost 6 years I´ve been on this foro: Headstock, Gravina, Mariano, Label, Sanchis or not, Faustino, my brother in law and my friend Paco´s sister. All this is what keeps the myth ans the story alive. If you knew everything you´d see that Condes are just........ Guitars, and you´d have nothing but reality to discuss.

We, the human beings always want to know everything untill we find out that knowing everything is boring.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2009 23:31:41

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Guest)

Wow there are so many good points here

quote:

Nealf - The myth I refer to is that which the condes themselves propagate as they claim to make their own primeras ...

quote:

Michelob - Conde Brothers have in turn formally confirmed that they build all of the top-notch (26-25- and Felipe V).

Firstly, That cant be true just because of the output of guitars every year. I believe that a single luthier can produce between 15 and 25 guitars a year depending on motivation. (Anders might be able to give a more accurate number) 3 luthiers therefore produce a maximum of 75 guitars. Bernal has a family operation of 6 or so that make handmade guitars but in batches of around 16 every 3 weeks or so. They produce around 240 instruments a year. Consider the output of Conde. They must have a considerablely higher number of luthiers or a much more automated system (which I doubt because of the build quality)

quote:

I know that Condes do not make their own guitars but I will say that I have enjoyed playing the two Gravinas (1984 & 1997) that have come through my hands. Whoever made them knew what a flamenco guitar was all about.

No argument. Conde (whoever they are) make great guitars.

quote:

there is no proof that Sanchis is making Conde primeras

I assume you mean the Felipe V. I'm sure that Sanchiz are NOT making those models. Its pretty common knowledge that they make most of the A26 models though (unless Conde are in fact copying Sanchis). Its more than a suspician though. The Sanchis flamenco is an EXACT replica to the A28. A friend of mine has one and the only way to tell the difference is the label and a slightly different headstock.

So that brings us to the "smoking gun" point. If Sanchis in Valencia is making the A28s and a good number of A26s....who are the luthiers making the Felipe V and Esteso reissues etc. Its rediculous to suggest "no-one knows". Conde know, some of their good clients and friends know and some of that info I have heard from various players , luthiers and guitar dealers.
As far as I am led to believe there are a half dozen or so luthiers in Madrid that are outsourced by Conde to make the primera models. If you want names I'll check them and post but it will be based only on what I have heard as i am not an intimate friend of Conde. The Felipe V are said to be made by a German luthier also in Madrid. Unlike Sanchis, I cant compare the guitars so I cant say if that name is true either. That is also why I suspect Sean does not want to post names either. If he knows 100 per cent for sure exactly who is making which models then yes, it would be nice to have someone on the inside let us know, but if like me his opinion is based on second hand hearsay then he will not want to be quoted in the future as leaking "false info"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2009 0:39:32

Anders Eliasson

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Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to jshelton5040) 1 votes

Well, I was told that Sanchis stopped making Condes some years ago....

Its not a joke and I´m not trying to keep the myth alive with more blurry information.

The output of a guitarmaker is higly individual. Most builders treating each instrument as and individual process with finetuning etc, porefilling and finishing themselves do few guitars a year. typically 10 - 12.

If you produce all guitars alike (like Conde and others) you can make a lot more and if you let others do the porefilling and the finishing, plus buy in a lot of parts of the guitar like rosettes, bridges, necks, inner linings etc. (its pretty normal) you can produce many guitars a year. I dont know how many because I have never tried.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2009 1:21:21

Ron.M

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Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Maybe the makers have a contractual agreement with Conde Bros that they will not identify themselves or leave any indentification marks on their instruments in the same way as the powerful marketing companies can commission "own brand" products?

Hey...I just thought, wouldn't it really shake the Art world to bits if some researcher found out that Picasso actually outsourced some of his work to other artists when he was busy!

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2009 2:02:38

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Conde Questions (in reply to jshelton5040) 1 votes

quote:

Hey...I just thought, wouldn't it really shake the Art world to bits if some researcher found out that Picasso actually outsourced some of his work to other artists when he was busy!

No no. You´re all wrong. It would increase value and people would have a new myth, so that they could serach, discuss and find out which was made by Picasso, by mrX, by Faustino and by Sanchis.

And the we would have have 1st, second and third grade Picasso art. Just like we have with Conde Guitars, depending on shop and maker.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 24 2009 3:00:55