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Fawkes

 

Posts: 104
Joined: Feb. 11 2015
 

Barbero wood details? 
Looking at Brune's drawing of the '51 blanca makes me curious: are mahogany necks common on Barbero blancas from the 1950s? What about mahogany back bracing?

I know the modern norm for grain direction of the back reinforcement strip is cross-grain, but I'm having trouble confirming that this is what Barbero did?

Many thanks for any help!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 31 2015 19:22:51
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Barbero wood details? (in reply to Fawkes) 
I have a book which has details of what is purported to be a representative Marcelo Barbero flamenco guitar from 1954. The book, edited by Jose Romanillos, is "La Guitarra Español," based on an exhibition of Spanish guitars at Museo Municipal Madrid and The Metropolitan Museum of Art (New York) 1991-1992. It says:

"This guitar has a spruce soundboard with seven fan-struts on the lower bout and two harmonic bars, one above and one below the soundhole. The two piece back and ribs are of cypress. The back has three equidistant transverse bars on the lower bout, waist, and upper bout. The cedar neck has an ebony fingerboard with nineteen metal frets. The face of the head is veneered with rosewood, and the pegs are rosewood." (p. 180)

I did a Google search of "Marcelo Barbero guitar label" and found photos of the labels and the back strips, which seem to be cross-grain as I would expect. Here is a link to a webpage with such a photo:
http://www.kentguitarclassics.com/classical-guitars/marcelo-barbero/marcelo-barbero-1953-flamenco-2

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2015 3:35:28
 
Fawkes

 

Posts: 104
Joined: Feb. 11 2015
 

RE: Barbero wood details? (in reply to Fawkes) 
Thanks very much for that Ethan.

I had looked at that photo and some other interior photos but I am not familiar with guitar woods and it wasn't clear to me what the grain direction was. Mostly I see flecks of some kind (medullary?).

I guess this 1953 example at Guitar Salon most likely has a cedar neck?

http://cdn.guitarsalon.com/productimages/resized/544-1386972557-large.jpg

A 1950, dark cedar or?

http://cdn.guitarsalon.com/productimages/resized/549-1320186652-large.jpg

Although much earlier could this possibly be with-grain reinforcement in this 1934?

http://cdn.guitarsalon.com/productimages/resized/38-1382743996-large.jpg

I don't take this as bearing on Barbero, but offer as a curious aside that Jose Romanillos stated in his chapter on the guitar in Making Musical Instruments (1979, ed. Charles Ford) "A reinforcement strip.... with the grain going along with the grain of the back." (emphasis original).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2015 5:03:48
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Barbero wood details? (in reply to Fawkes) 
Practically all wood except walnut darkens with age (walnut lightens). I think these are all cedar necks. If you carve a piece of Cedro into the shape of a cross-grain back reinforcement strip, I think you'll see that the rays look like they do in the pictures.

A couple of times I have fixed guitars that I made several years ago when I wasn't using pultruded carbon fiber neck reinforcement. I had to remove the fingerboards and install reinforcement and then put on new fingerboards. The heat from my clothes iron that I used to remove the fingerboards messed up the finish on the necks, so they had to be refinished. I saw that the aged surfaces of the necks were much darker than originally, so I used dark garnet lac to refinish the neck shafts (after scraping and sanding off the old finish and the surface wood) which made them match the heels and heads that were finished with a much lighter colored shellac.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2015 5:19:06
 
Stephen Eden

 

Posts: 914
Joined: Apr. 12 2008
From: UK

RE: Barbero wood details? (in reply to Fawkes) 
It does look like a same grain direction back reiforcement. I use same grain direction reinforcements all of the time. It makes more sense to me to do it this way so the back responds relatively the same under humidity changes.

There is plenty of naturally dark Cedrella out there. I find that Indian Rosewood also gets lighter with age. That could just be sun exposure though.

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Classical and Flamenco Guitars www.EdenGuitars.co.uk
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2015 9:36:23
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Barbero wood details? (in reply to Fawkes) 
Not sure if this helps but here are two photos I took of Sabicas' 51 Barbero. The first is the backside of the headstock and the second is the label. The photos were taken before restoration a couple of years ago.

I am not an expert of guitars of the early 1950's so I cannot contribute to the discussion on guitar history but I recall a passage from Jose Ramirez's book about the difficulty in getting good wood during the civil war. Additionally, National Geographic had an photo layout/article about southern Spain and interviewed Miguel Rodriquez Sr. who mentioned his love for Cuban Mahogeny for necks.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2015 13:00:30
 
estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Barbero wood details? (in reply to Fawkes) 
quote:

I know the modern norm for grain direction of the back reinforcement strip is cross-grain, but I'm having trouble confirming that this is what Barbero did?


It's not unusual at all to find 'with the grain' back strips on older Spanish work. Often made of beech wood and the back linings are also common of beech.

Like Eden I also use mostly with the grain back strips. Backs so seldom rip along the seam anyway. Some modern makers don't even use that back strip at all, Lester Devoe often goes with out it.

quote:

I am not an expert of guitars of the early 1950's so I cannot contribute to the discussion on guitar history but I recall a passage from Jose Ramirez's book about the difficulty in getting good wood during the civil war. Additionally, National Geographic had an photo layout/article about southern Spain and interviewed Miguel Rodriquez Sr. who mentioned his love for Cuban Mahogeny for necks.


I'm not an expert either, but the older Spanish work I've been shown from that era often exhibits three piece spruce tops and neck heels stacked from what looks like left over hunks of cedar and mahogany of odd sizes. Especially Esteso.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2015 13:33:58
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Barbero wood details? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

Some modern makers don't even use that back strip at all, Lester Devoe often goes with out it.


Wow, that's interesting. Maybe because they're sure about the holding power of modern glues that they use (?)

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2015 13:58:29
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Barbero wood details? (in reply to keith) 
quote:

Not sure if this helps but here are two photos I took of Sabicas' 51 Barbero.


These are really nice photos, Keith. I am certain that the back strip is cross grain. What's interesting about the head shot is that the grain is slanted. I wonder if this was to make the splice joint stronger, less of an end-grain joint, or because it looks nice, or because it was the most efficient use of wood.

I just unearthed my supply of back strip blanks, which I cut from a plank of 16/4 Cedro that was as wide as they are long.









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_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2015 14:04:28
 
Fawkes

 

Posts: 104
Joined: Feb. 11 2015
 

RE: Barbero wood details? (in reply to Fawkes) 
Thanks very much Ethan, Keith, SEden, and Stephen. Ethan that last photo sure makes the connection.

Keith thanks for your photos. Brune thought the back braces and neck looked to be mahogany.

Oh, no wonder. I had no idea Sp. Cedar was related:

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/spanish%20cedar.htm

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/mahogany,%20cuban.htm

Stephen--Esteso is another maker I wish I could learn more about.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2015 15:44:13
 
Fawkes

 

Posts: 104
Joined: Feb. 11 2015
 

RE: Barbero wood details? (in reply to Fawkes) 
For those who may be interested, Aaron Green did an article with some very nice photos of the '51 instrument for The Fretboard Journal, issue no. 27, Fall of 2012. I love the internet, received my copy two days after ordering from Amazon.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 2 2015 19:37:58
 
estebanana

Posts: 9367
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Barbero wood details? (in reply to Fawkes) 
quote:

Stephen--Esteso is another maker I wish I could learn more about.


Brune' knows a lot about Esteso and you might also chat up John Ray.

From what I gather Esteso was a saver of scraps and he cobbled together heels and other components out of small saved pieces when he needed to. Those were lean times and trade goods were expensive. That is why you see woods like Beech used as liners, they were cast offs and mill ends from furniture makers and cabinet shops probably.

I like Esteso work, if you get one of those guys to chat about it please share with me if they consent it it. Not many people get to see that work up close these days. You might also check with the John Harris Foundation to see if there is any information. Or the Collector Sheldon Urlich

http://harrisguitarfoundation.org/

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 3 2015 2:21:32
 
keith

Posts: 1108
Joined: Sep. 29 2009
From: Back in Boston

RE: Barbero wood details? (in reply to Fawkes) 
Fawkes, Aaron posted several videos of Dennis Koster playing the Barbero.
Here is a link to Aaron's video page. I am at work which has a block on youtube so I can only get the page with the links. Scroll down to Koster and Barbero--there are 3 of them. I was lucky to get a chance to play the guitar--it was awesome. I am sure it was just me and my love for Sabicas but that guitar was radiating some mysterious and great energy.

http://www.vintageclassicalguitars.net/videos.html
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 3 2015 13:02:46
 
Fawkes

 

Posts: 104
Joined: Feb. 11 2015
 

RE: Barbero wood details? (in reply to Fawkes) 
Keith--yes, thanks--and the intro. video has some good photos in it, including a particularly nice one of the heel.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 3 2015 14:41:31
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