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Comment on the lateral tautness / liminal stiffness with regard to my BlackBird Rider (see below video).
Easy.
In the dark ages preceding El Rumbero and his Blackbird Rider, flamenco guitarists in the dark web were fighting over which of their fragile ticking wooden time bombs has nice Pulsacion and which one does have Pulsacion of a brick.
Then arrived El Rumbero with his Rider and changed flamenco history forever.
The answer was: carbon fiber. A material with almost illegal physics, with consistent mysteriously self-modulating lateral taughtness and liminal stiffness, creating an out of this world Pulsacion, which made luthiers question their entire careers and aficionados their entire guitar collections (and their feelings).
All these centuries, the total lack of organic cellular material and total lack of hand work and manual labor and total lack of feelings, was the simple answer, yet it was El Rumbero who discovered it first.
MUST NOT REPLY… 🤐
Oh **** it, years ago my nickname at the aerospace repair place was CARBONDEZ! Just for kicks I would use dated prepreg CF material to make all kinds of cool ****. Once I made a batch of fancy clipboards with it and nomex honeycomb cores, my supervisors supervisor at the time came up to me to complain about it and I before he got to far I handed him one with his name already on it. Then I laid it in thick how I was exploring the limits of the material…
My last two flamencas and two classicals have a CF cloth bridge plate.
You can think of it as a harmonic stiffener but I just call it a hummer ;)
Don’t have photos of the flamencos handy but here are a few of the classical:
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I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
Credit to Ernandez R for both his carbon fibre and his neck off construction. Although as Arash suggests, these transgressions away from the flamenco guitar 'suum perfectum’ are vellicating the purist feelings in me.
(PS Arash don't actually use this type of English vocabulary, no one will understand you. This is my attempt to amuse Stephen.)
Credit to Ernandez R for both his carbon fibre and his neck off construction. Although as Arash suggests, these transgressions away from the flamenco guitar 'suum perfectum’ are vellicating the purist feelings in me.
(PS Arash don't actually use this type of English vocabulary, no one will understand you. This is my attempt to amuse Stephen.)
E-Hern gets a season pass on purism in my book. He eats Mexican food, he’s an Alaskan bush pilot and he’s been stepped on by a moose. I think he’s had enough trauma. 😂
Yes. I enjoy his creativity. I was mocking my own purist sensibilities.
Nothing wrong with being a Mocker h/t: Ringo
I wish I had another life to build my guitars, I started too late.
The two flamencas with the CF bridge plate were strung up two years ago, one spruce and one cedar, 666mm, both dry, not quite the bass of my previous builds but I was aiming for that as before the bass was a touch too much, I reduced the box volume by pulling in the boughts a few mm and the ribs about 5mm. Both are sub 1kgm, 970-ish if I recall. With pegs they are well balanced.
The cedar one has some magic around the midrange and even the third string has it going on mid fretboard. Almost to much sustain but still dry. I like her.
I had an issue in the go bar deck glueing the sticks on the spruce top, should have shaved them off and started again, got impatient, so be it. I had some gaps and just filled them with glue-full on googan move. A lot of gaps… I’m sure this is the main difference between the two tops, the difference between liking the spruce guitar and loving the cedar.
As for the CF bridge plate, I want to make two more guitars with half the width on my next flamencas, or perhaps the same size but cut out 50% in the middle in a way the plate captures the corners of the bridge on the other size.
I have about ten more sets of the cedar from the same fitch so I might stick with it rather than the spruce. Also note the CF diamonds on the seam aft of the bridge plate, I want to use much smaller units, 15mm diamonds say on 4cm centers: I want even less mass there but perhaps more flexibility.
I might bring the rib width up half of what I took away.
Andy Culpepper posted this on the Delcamp yesterday, I feel it’s relevant I’ll post in in closing as food for thought:
I'll take a small stab at it: the more the closing struts drift up toward the bridge area, the more control they will exert over certain vibrational modes like the cross dipole. The more they stiffen the top cross-grain in more relevant vibrating areas, like near the bridge, that should have the effect of raising the cross dipole resonance. Thinking back to my days of actively using Chladni patterns, I usually noticed that good flamenco guitars generally had lower cross dipole modes than classicals, indicating less cross-grain stiffness near the bridge. So to boil it down: increasing the angle of the closing struts would make the guitar sound LESS flamenco :-P This is of course speaking VERY broadly, and at the end of a very thin limb!
HR
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I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
Among the best flamenco guitars I’ve ever played was Antonio Moya’s Bellido. It had fan braces that crossed the top parallel at an angle. What really makes flamenco guitars work is the geometry of the set up. There are flamencos braced with vertically oriented fans and flamencos that look exactly like Torres or Hauser and they work perfectly. It’s more about the low set up coupled with a light bridge. Anything rolls
I am sure that Bellido sounded great. I tried once a very good one as well even though I never happened to own one. I m curious about the picture you posted as I just don’t understand the logic behind that bracing system. I saw similar ideas and I agree with Stephen and yet…
I just don’t understand the logic behind that bracing system. I saw similar ideas and I agree with Stephen and yet…
Obviously it matters, and it also doesn't matter at all. Makes me wonder if anyone had tried something completely random and asymmetrical for fun? I guess that would be dangerous if you are trying to sell the thing.
At around 31:50 and 38:50 Hurtado uses the word pulsar and pulsacion. In what context?
As with many English words, "pulsar" has multiple meanings. The Royal Academy lists six: five as a transitive verb, one intransitive
quote:
pulsar1
Definición Del lat. pulsāre 'empujar, impeler', 'golpear'.
1. tr. Presionar un pulsador.
Sin.:presionar, oprimir, apretar.
2. tr. Tocar, palpar, percibir algo con la mano o con la yema de los dedos.
Sin.: Tocar1.
3. tr. Dar un toque a una tecla, a una cuerda de un instrumento, a un mando de alguna máquina, etc.
Sin.:tañer, rasguear.
4. tr. Reconocer el estado del pulso o latido de las arterias.
5. tr. Tantear un asunto para descubrir el medio de tratarlo.
Sin.: tantear, sondear, comprobar.
6. intr. Dicho de una arteria, del corazón o de otra cosa que tiene movimiento sensible: latir. Sin.: latir, palpitar.
The definition most confusing to English speaking guitarists and luthiers is the noun version "pulsación" of number 2, since the English cognate "pulsation" does not include perception. The definition employed by Hurtado in the video is number 3.
For those wondering why this works it’s like this:
The bridge is a lateral brace. It also moves driven by strings. Strings move the bridge more or less ‘multi directionally’ that is all different ways, up- down, side to side, all manner of pitch, roll and yaw. And it’s doing it really fast. The top resists the movement and also controls and feeds back into the movement of the bridge.
There’s an energy source and multi directional movement. Let’s just simplify it like that.
The movement can be articulated and cultivated by the thickness and thinness of the top. And by how the braces are shaped. The top thickness could be 2.4 mm in the center area and taper out to 1.8 around the outer edge. ( the whole top could also be a constant 2.0mm thick if not using a graduated concept)
The braces are also taller in the middle and taper out towards the rim. The center is stiffer the edges more more flexible. This way of graduating the thickness of the top works with practically every brace pattern or system because it creates a strong reliable way to moderate top stiffness.
Braces work by isolate areas of the top and makes them stiffer and lighter. Stiff membranes can vibrate better than loose membrane. And by allowing small or large spaces between braces there arises a way to moderate flexibility and stiffness.
The parallel angle braces are counter intuitive and look like they wouldn’t work. But think of the bridge as a brace and how the cross grain stiffness should be articulated now that the bridge crosses the braces at an oblique angle rather that perpendicular, or closer to perpendicular.
You have the same pallette of variables to create stiffness and flexibility, but the bridge crosses these variables at a slightly different angle. It’s not that radical of a departure from a Torres’ ‘Kite’ concept.
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
At around 31:50 and 38:50 Hurtado uses the word pulsar and pulsacion. In what context? I believe pulsacion doesn't mean action.
As Richard pointed out, he is using the word as a verb, not really different than the word "action" in English, such that it is about the way you play, in terms of your physical expression. To use colloquial "play it with balls, play it like a man", is a sexist cliche that leads to an impression that one is to play with stronger/louder dynamics, perhaps with an attitude of confidence or aggression. In context he was just talking about Miles Davis' version of Soleá and Saeta being flamenco forms interpreted in a jazz way, and generally the "way you play" a Soleá etc., would make the more "flamenco" expression distinguishable. The interviewer is asking super general questions that these guys are trying to explain but there is tons of nuance and depth to the true answers. The second occurrence was in regard to the distinction between playing guitar for cante vs baile. Again the same word and same issue, he means when you get experience for dance your "way to play" (the Compás is mainly what he means) is different, again what that is, is you play more aggressively as I said before, than you need to for cante or guitar solo (concert playing).
Now I don't have a problem with connecting the "way you play" to "THE action" of a guitar, and it's set up. The difference is we don't say "I play with a hard action", or "I will play this piece with a soft delicate action", we use terms like dynamics or the colloquial I explained to get that information out. But if they were to start talking about GUITAR SET UP, the word comes back into play, and the same dynamic adjectives get utilized..."Hard action" or "soft action"...doesn't necessarily mean the guitar set up has to be for one way of playing versus the other, but it COULD. As I explained earlier in this topic, I prefer the harder action guitar for lead playing, and the softer for rhythm, and the delicate precise balance in ONE guitar is what we are all after to cover both extremes. It does mean that the "soft action guitar" tends to FAIL when we play more aggressively, and Paco has famously stated that his main guitar is stiff but he NEEDS that due to his nervous stage energy, where as at home he prefers softer easier guitars on the couch. Next we could have a discussion of the word "flamenco" what that means to playing, musicality, guitar set up, etc. etc. These words are catch all expressions to convey a general idea. We need to keep the context clear for the usage, and in the case of this word umbrella "pulsación" the SPECIFIC usage by Amalia Ramirez clarified the issue perfectly.
The missing factor was how he chose to thin the braces that you’ve shown in your drawing. 🙏
HR
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
For those wondering why this works it’s like this:
The bridge is a lateral brace. It also moves driven by strings. Strings move the bridge more or less ‘multi directionally’ that is all different ways, up- down, side to side, all manner of pitch, roll and yaw. And it’s doing it really fast. The top resists the movement and also controls and feeds back into the movement of the bridge.
There’s an energy source and multi directional movement. Let’s just simplify it like that.
The movement can be articulated and cultivated by the thickness and thinness of the top. And by how the braces are shaped. The top thickness could be 2.4 mm in the center area and taper out to 1.8 around the outer edge. ( the whole top could also be a constant 2.0mm thick if not using a graduated concept)
The braces are also taller in the middle and taper out towards the rim. The center is stiffer the edges more more flexible. This way of graduating the thickness of the top works with practically every brace pattern or system because it creates a strong reliable way to moderate top stiffness.
Braces work by isolate areas of the top and makes them stiffer and lighter. Stiff membranes can vibrate better than loose membrane. And by allowing small or large spaces between braces there arises a way to moderate flexibility and stiffness.
The parallel angle braces are counter intuitive and look like they wouldn’t work. But think of the bridge as a brace and how the cross grain stiffness should be articulated now that the bridge crosses the braces at an oblique angle rather that perpendicular, or closer to perpendicular.
You have the same pallette of variables to create stiffness and flexibility, but the bridge crosses these variables at a slightly different angle. It’s not that radical of a departure from a Torres’ ‘Kite’ concept.
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
Apropo of Bellido diagonal braces, have ya’ll ever seen a late 19th century parlor guitar called a Tilton?
Ok, now your just straight up bending our strings ;)
Looks like they strung her up with steel?
HR
Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px
_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
I remembered I saw a similar bracing pattern in the past, actually in the Orfeo Magazine n.7. It's made by Thomas Norwood, and American Luthier based in Paris. He recalled to have seen it first on a 1950 Kohno guitar (or any a Japanese guitar of those years).
With regard of the video with Hurtado, the meaning of "pulsacion", I see the word is related with the usual meaning of bounciness/stiffness of the top to second the pulsar technique of flamenco.
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