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Trouble with Rasgueo
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Ricardo
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to SilverShark)
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Rasgueao is THE most important part of flamenco guitar playing, and therefore taken for granted how difficult it really is. It takes years to really feel GOOD about it. I still work on it myself. Remember there are many different ways to do them, so learn a bunch, but in practice, it becomes personal which techniques you like to use. No need to master them all, but you need master just a couple to do a good job. If you have a weak finger, and this goes for ALL and any techniques, work on the rhythm of it with a metronome. Emphasize your weaknesses rhythmically, and they will smooth out in no time. Like Florian said, control is key, rhythmic control is the way to go about it. Ricardo
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Date Sep. 17 2008 7:57:44
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Ron.M
Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland
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RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
rhythmic control is the way to go about it. Yeah, I second what Ricardo says. Another good thing to try, (say, with 3 fingers a,m,i) is just getting up a rhythm like... a,m,i,i (second i up when there is a double i), then a,m,i,i a,m,i,i and a,m,i,i Do each of them over and over again, or even combine them. This will help show up and excercise your weakest point. Finally (and importantly IMO) just let rip for a bit before putting the guitar away in it's case. ) cheers, Ron
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Date Sep. 17 2008 12:04:22
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rpguitar
Posts: 27
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: New Jersey, USA
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RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to SilverShark)
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This is good advice from Ron because it helps each finger develop strength by being painfully isolated. Also it helps avoid the natural tendency to hear and play a rasgueo as a single, grouped phrase... rather than as a sequence of independent rhythmic strokes. This is really important to understand, because the beautiful even rhythms that good players execute are a result of that finger independence. For example, play a repeating (SLOWWW) eami 4-stroke rasgueo. But do it several times, each time changing the finger that you perceive as beat 1: E a m i E a m i E a m i E a m i A m i e A m i e A m i e A m i e M i e a M i e a M i e a M i e a I e a m I e a m I e a m I e a m This helps you hear the beats within, rather than the four stroke phrase as a single thing to execute. I've been at this for about 10 months now, and I've seen great progress, but I also see where I need to be. I do practice rasgueo like a nervous tic at work, at leisure, wherever! It really helps you develop the muscles. Roger
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-- '08 Eliasson hybrid blanca, '07 Hmnos Sanchis Lopez Bulerias negra, '72 Conde blanca
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Date Sep. 18 2008 6:41:50
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to Haizum)
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i posted this in another thread about rasgeo, it follows on from what ron was saying about stressing different fingers, and is really useful for both developing rhythmic control AND developing the ability to fit rasgeos into any compas in different ways, ie. you can play 3, 4, 5, 6, 8 whatever strokes per beat in solea, tientos, alegrias, siguiriyas, solea por bulerias, etc., etc., etc., you can skip the emaii bit and go straight to amii if you want.... To practise eamii, use it to play a 6 stroke rajeo (all down strokes except for 2nd i upstroke - 5th group ends down, and 6th starts up); 1 2 3 4 5 6 2 2 3 4 5 6 3 2 3 4 5 6 4 2 3 4 5 6 5 2 3 4 5 6 e a m i i e , a m i i e a , m i i e a m , i i e a m i , i e a m i i , Each group begins with, and therefore is easy to stress, a different finger. Another way of doing it is to do 4 strokes with eamii; 1 2 3 4 2 2 3 4 3 2 3 4 4 2 3 4 5 2 3 4 e a m i , i e a m , i i e a , m i i e , a m i i , this is as well as the basic 5 stroke eamii, and should help to even that out. You can do the same thing with amii, play a 5 stroke with it; 1 2 3 4 5 2 2 3 4 5 3 2 3 4 5 4 2 3 4 5 a m i i a , m i i a m , i i a m i , i a m i i , and/or a 3 stroke; 1 2 3 2 2 3 3 2 3 4 2 3 a m i , i a m , i i a , m i i , as well as the basic four stroke amii and should help to even that out. you gonna have to practise this for like years at a time, so you better try and make this a bit more interesting, and as the goal is to play music, try to put it into compas, get creative with it. Solea, tweaked a bit, 3 beats on each chord, F (maj7), C, F (maj7), E ; and/or try A-, G, F, E 1 e + a , 2 e + a , 3 and, 4 e + a , 5 e + a , 6 and, e a m i i e a m i i e a m i i e a m i i 7 e + a , 8 e + a , 9 and, 10 e + a , 11 e + a , 12 and, e a m i i e a m i i e a m i i e a m i i (Beats 3, 6, 9, and 12 are just down up on and off the beat) You can do the same thing with amii, but you can do 5 strokes per beat and/or 6 strokes per beat. 5's; 1 2 3 & 4 5 6 & 7 8 9 & 10 11 12 & amiia, miiam, i i, amiia, miiam, i i, amiia, miiam, i i, amiia, miiam, i i And 6's - something like this is used by Manolo Sanlucar and Vicente Amigo etc. (for the first 6 beats anyway - it's an exercise, so don't worry about it! ); 1 2 3 & 4 5 6 & 7 8 9 & 10 11 12 & amiiam, iiamii, i i, amiiam, iiamii, i i, amiiam, iiamii, i i, amiiam, iiamii, i i
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Date Oct. 24 2008 11:36:08
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mark indigo
Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
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RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to Munin)
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quote:
I'm really looking for some not too difficult rasgeado exercises in a more musical context. Doing them "dry" just bores me in the long run see above about putting them into solea context/using chord sequences, but see also about putting into other palos, eg. alegrias, which is the same rhythmically as solea, but obviously different chords, and you can use keys of A, E, C, you can put them into solea in A por medio, or D# phrygian or whatever, work them into solea por bulerias, siguiriyas, etc., etc., get creative, try different keys and different rhythms, different palos etc. that way you don't just develop rasgeo, you learn chords in different keys, you work on rhythm, etc. etc. ps Ron's sample/example is from La Andonda on Rosas Del Amor cd, am I right Ron? i was waiting for the little run at the end of the rasgeo "theme" which just stumped me when i tried to learn it from the encuentro DVD - and you pulled it off, nice one mate!
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Date Oct. 25 2008 9:31:57
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Exitao
Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
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RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to farteindj)
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Lots of good stuff in this thread. I was doing quite a bit of copying and pasting for my notes. Thanks! quote:
ORIGINAL: farteindj Roger, my post was a reply to Eddie who wrote that "The muscles in the fingers are designed to grip. Great for holding beer but not for rasgueo." I kind of disagree with that point of view (except for the beer thing), cause it seems to imply that rasgueo is a technique that works against the anatomy of the hand -- no technique does IMO. Thing is, I think my own problems with rasgueos are more due to using TOO much force to little effect than anything else, ie the muscles have more than enough strength, but I end up wasting it fighting myself rather than getting it into the guitar. Makes sense? Farus It's not that anatomy works against it. What works against it is that for most people, opening or flexion of (the fingers of) the hand is the activity that is most required in daily life. Even actions like scratching or typing are flexing. When it comes to opening the hand, extension, we rarely need to have strength. Speed, maybe, but rarely strength. So strength must be built up. However, for speed, movement has to be done with looseness. Muscles use different fibres for speed and strength activities too. So I would imagine that you need to use exercises or drills specific to each goal, separately. As Ron points out, you do need to let loose occasionally, as the muscles and reflexes need to learn to move faster. If a runner plateaus in speed, the trick is to make him run down a hill where the only effort is getting the legs fast enough not to fall on one's face. However, I would suggest that after letting loose (even to the point of exhaustion), you return to as slow a speed as you need to to practise 'perfect' movements and be very mindful of it because you are building kinaesthetic or muscle memory and you don't want to end a practice session with possibly learning a bad habit. (I used to fence and this was a common technique of training in workshops where we would finish a completely exhausting session with the fine point work exercises, focusing hard to control movements past the fatigue and trembling. From a health point of view, it's important to exercise the opposing muscle groups of regular activities. Runners cure shin splints by using a strong elastic (e.g. bicycle inner tube) to lift their toes off the ground; shin splints is usually caused by over development of the calves while the opposing muscles (in the shins) are not developed sufficiently. I got tennis elbow recently from gripping/work related activities, I used elastic bands and bungee cords with finger extension exercises, after which my elbows started healing better than anything else previously. From a training point of view, you can plateau if opposing muscle groups are not trained enough to keep pace with the muscles most commonly used (diminishing returns). So I imagine, flamenco tocaores with monster arpeggio and picado skills probably owe some of that to the strength and speed trained into the opposing muscles, used in rageo.
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Date Oct. 27 2008 16:09:56
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Exitao
Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada
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RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to Mark2)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mark2 Don't know about JM, but Mariano Cordoba used the four finger all down stroke ras (starting with the pinky) continuously and it sounded monsterous. He really had it down. I worked on it for years and never got it sounding consistantly as good. I could never consistantly make it even. It was frustrating. Some days it worked, some not. Kinda like a lot of other techniques for me. I eventually pretty much abandoned it in favor of Marote's. It creates an older style sound, and I've never seen anyone else do it as well as he did. I'm sure there are others who did it as well. It was very powerful, though. And it created a unique sound. He would use it dynamically, often starting it soft and building the volume to a roar. He also did the same ras, but led with the thumb going up, making it a five stroke. Even more of a power house, but maybe just as hard to do consistantly even. I saw a bit of an encuentro video with Merengue de Cordoba and he doesa 4 finger rageo (with and without the extra i, IRC), without anchoring his thumb at all.
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Date Oct. 27 2008 16:15:00
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