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SilverShark

 

Posts: 15
Joined: Aug. 26 2008
 

Trouble with Rasgueo 

I've been hacking away at the learning process, and every once in a while I feel really good about my rasgeuo but then sometimes it seems like the 3-finger and continuing rasgueo just isn't there yet. Especially with my ring finger (a). The coordination is really slow in coming.

I'm just trying to keep the frustration down to a minimum. I know that never helps...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2008 17:29:13
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to SilverShark

hi

i am not sure how u practice but for clear even powerfull rasqueado, i like practicing really really slow focusing on each fingher separateley

eg. strike with a pause ....m pause....i pause.... i up pause repeat

focus on each strike beeing even, powerfull and the same volume


have your fingers overlapping eachother under your thumb to get that flick effect and power on each one and dont allow the fingers to just follow eachother as they naturally wanna do, prolong the pause between each strike if you have to when you practice to make sure that you control when the next finger strikes and not the momentum.

you dont want that fanlike, soft brush effect that you dont feel like you are controling.. u want the powerfull digging in the strings effect that feels like you are in charge of each strike effect

the slower you can go the better it is, this kind of practice helps every rasqueado combination....ofcourse in some cases the strikes arent dead even when they try to emulte the feel of the compas, but they should always be controled 100%, that alows you to better emulate the compas in any palo

eg... solea por bulerias

12........1........2.........3

taKa taKataKa taKa Ta TaM.......etc

(sorry i know its hard to make any sense of this but in my head i know what i mean lol)

or whatever rithm you trying to emulate

hope this helps

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 16 2008 17:39:42
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12569
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to SilverShark

Rasgueao is THE most important part of flamenco guitar playing, and therefore taken for granted how difficult it really is. It takes years to really feel GOOD about it. I still work on it myself. Remember there are many different ways to do them, so learn a bunch, but in practice, it becomes personal which techniques you like to use. No need to master them all, but you need master just a couple to do a good job.

If you have a weak finger, and this goes for ALL and any techniques, work on the rhythm of it with a metronome. Emphasize your weaknesses rhythmically, and they will smooth out in no time. Like Florian said, control is key, rhythmic control is the way to go about it.

Ricardo

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2008 7:57:44
 
n85ae

 

Posts: 847
Joined: Sep. 7 2006
 

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to SilverShark

One thing to remember, your fingers don't have the right kind of muscle
strength when you start, and this takes time. I think a year or so before you
have developed the muscles. At least that's my experience.

Jeff
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2008 11:43:10
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

rhythmic control is the way to go about it.


Yeah, I second what Ricardo says.
Another good thing to try, (say, with 3 fingers a,m,i) is just getting up a rhythm like...

a,m,i,i (second i up when there is a double i), then
a,m,i,i
a,m,i,i and
a,m,i,i

Do each of them over and over again, or even combine them.

This will help show up and excercise your weakest point.

Finally (and importantly IMO) just let rip for a bit before putting the guitar away in it's case. )

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 17 2008 12:04:22
 
rpguitar

 

Posts: 27
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: New Jersey, USA

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to SilverShark

This is good advice from Ron because it helps each finger develop strength by being painfully isolated. Also it helps avoid the natural tendency to hear and play a rasgueo as a single, grouped phrase... rather than as a sequence of independent rhythmic strokes.

This is really important to understand, because the beautiful even rhythms that good players execute are a result of that finger independence. For example, play a repeating (SLOWWW) eami 4-stroke rasgueo. But do it several times, each time changing the finger that you perceive as beat 1:

E a m i E a m i E a m i E a m i

A m i e A m i e A m i e A m i e

M i e a M i e a M i e a M i e a

I e a m I e a m I e a m I e a m

This helps you hear the beats within, rather than the four stroke phrase as a single thing to execute.

I've been at this for about 10 months now, and I've seen great progress, but I also see where I need to be. I do practice rasgueo like a nervous tic at work, at leisure, wherever! It really helps you develop the muscles.

Roger

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'08 Eliasson hybrid blanca, '07 Hmnos Sanchis Lopez Bulerias negra, '72 Conde blanca
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2008 6:41:50
 
Stu

 

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2008 6:55:02
 
eddie

 

Posts: 12
Joined: Sep. 8 2008
From: Middlesbrough

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to SilverShark

The muscles in the fingers are designed to grip. Great for holding beer but not for rasgueo. I suppose every cloud has its silver lining though.

Eddie
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2008 11:21:58
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to rpguitar

Hi Roger,
Yeah it's the same kind of idea, but the only thing is that you will never make a practical "continuous" rasgueado without using i up, just using the fingers.

i up is an incredibly important and much used technique in Flamenco guitar.
It's what gives you the counter-timing in Bulerias and also helps keep you in compás in many rhythmic toques.

i up is your friend.

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2008 12:05:35
 
farteindj

Posts: 41
Joined: Mar. 7 2007
From: Norway

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to eddie

There are absolutely no muscles in the fingers. A lot of people seem to think so. I even had a lesson with a flamenco guitar teacher who thought the muscles in question were located in the hand.

They actually sit in the forearm, upper side the ones for extending the fingers, underside the ones for retracting them. What you don't want is these pairs working against each other. One set needs to be fully relaxed while the other is doing its business. Much more important than pure strength IMO.

Farus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2008 12:18:41
 
HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to farteindj

to be honest...that wierds me out.

i'm looking online here, and i dont see anything about muscles in fingers....

just tendons and ligaments

i called my friend who is a nurse....she concurrs.

WIERD!!!!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2008 14:38:46
 
eccullen

 

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[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Sep. 18 2008 16:27:01
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2008 16:26:28
 
rpguitar

 

Posts: 27
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: New Jersey, USA

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to SilverShark

Tendons do not move on their own fellas. Tendons are moved by muscles. Muscles in the forearm move tendons which pull the fingers. I never referred to "finger muscles," just "THE muscles." Maybe it was one of the other posts (I didn't go back and re-read).

As for "up i" - without a doubt I agree. But here's another point of view. I learned from both Juan Martin's and Dennis Koster's books to do lots of 5 stroke eamii rasgueado. I can do continuous eamii rolls fairly well. But then I saw clips of others doing eami (no up) 4 stroke rolls. And those were WAY harder because of the missing up stroke, which helps control the timing. Hence a focus on rasgueos with no "up i."

Like it has been said, there are many types of rasgueos and I was advising only on one tidbit of practice.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 18 2008 18:11:38
 
Stu

Posts: 1841
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to rpguitar

Yeah whats the deal with continous rasgueado without (i) up??

I never do this but have seen it in jm book.

do modern players/teachers use/promote this or what?

Stu
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2008 3:19:46
 
farteindj

Posts: 41
Joined: Mar. 7 2007
From: Norway

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to rpguitar

Roger, my post was a reply to Eddie who wrote that "The muscles in the fingers are designed to grip. Great for holding beer but not for rasgueo." I kind of disagree with that point of view (except for the beer thing), cause it seems to imply that rasgueo is a technique that works against the anatomy of the hand -- no technique does IMO.

Thing is, I think my own problems with rasgueos are more due to using TOO much force to little effect than anything else, ie the muscles have more than enough strength, but I end up wasting it fighting myself rather than getting it into the guitar. Makes sense?

Farus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2008 4:43:32
 
rpguitar

 

Posts: 27
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: New Jersey, USA

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to SilverShark

Farus, your struggle makes sense to me. It's actually much easier to hit the strings hard but without accuracy. You will read over and over to "practice slowly" and it's not a lie... You need more strength to execute each finger's stroke in time and with careful control than just executing a "splat" against the strings.

Tremolo is similar - it's kind of easy to do it fast but sloppy. Slow it down, and you really hear the beat subdivisions - and have to control it or it sounds terrible. I think electric guitar "shredders" sometimes have this problem too - turn off the massive distortion and play it at half speed. Still sound good?

Think about it like lifting something very heavy. You might be able to do it quickly and clumsily, to dislodge it or shove it. But it takes more strength to do it slowly and under careful control, say, to move it around other objects for example.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2008 5:16:39
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12569
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to Stu

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stu

Yeah whats the deal with continous rasgueado without (i) up??

I never do this but have seen it in jm book.

do modern players/teachers use/promote this or what?

Stu


The i up stroke necessarily hits the treble strings first, and sometimes ONLY the trebs, so you get brighter sound than the fingers that strike down wards. In some cases, you really want the basses only to "roll", so you would use only down strokes to achieve this. That rasgueado (eami) you can target any group of strings you want,but it is very nice for say a Siguiriya llamad where you make those bass strings snap. Juan Serrano I think teaches that pattern as starting with index, so you end up feeling the beat strong on the index finger, not the pinky, and therefore do more even and clear rhythms that end with the strong lead finger that can keep the rhythm going (that being index down stroke) AND do a golpe with it to boot.

Hope that helps. I very rarely use this technique and don't practice or teach it much because I can make a similar sound with just amii.

Ricardo

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www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2008 6:24:12
 
farteindj

Posts: 41
Joined: Mar. 7 2007
From: Norway

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to rpguitar

quote:

ORIGINAL: rpguitar

Farus, your struggle makes sense to me. It's actually much easier to hit the strings hard but without accuracy. You will read over and over to "practice slowly" and it's not a lie... You need more strength to execute each finger's stroke in time and with careful control than just executing a "splat" against the strings.

Tremolo is similar - it's kind of easy to do it fast but sloppy. Slow it down, and you really hear the beat subdivisions - and have to control it or it sounds terrible. I think electric guitar "shredders" sometimes have this problem too - turn off the massive distortion and play it at half speed. Still sound good?

Think about it like lifting something very heavy. You might be able to do it quickly and clumsily, to dislodge it or shove it. But it takes more strength to do it slowly and under careful control, say, to move it around other objects for example.


Well, I guess we disagree a little, but that's ok. I practise not to get stronger, but to get nearer to the right, which is also the easiest way to do it. Technique in my definition is everything that's NOT to do with muscle strength.

Farus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2008 8:10:33
 
rpguitar

 

Posts: 27
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: New Jersey, USA

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to SilverShark

No disagreement. Do you think I want to be stronger so I can beat up my guitar? No... it's so I can be gentle and precise with it. The more strength, the better the control. It doesn't mean you are a brute.

The stronger you are, the less effort, and therefore the best dynamic control.

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'08 Eliasson hybrid blanca, '07 Hmnos Sanchis Lopez Bulerias negra, '72 Conde blanca
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2008 9:39:09
 
farteindj

Posts: 41
Joined: Mar. 7 2007
From: Norway

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to rpguitar

Sure, I guess we're saying more or less the same thing, just with different perspectives.

My guitar is actually a lot stronger than me, so I wouldn't dream of even looking at her the wrong way.

Farus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 19 2008 9:52:15
 
Haizum

 

Posts: 43
Joined: Apr. 21 2008
From: York, England

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to SilverShark

I found the 'flicking a ball of paper' exercise helped using each finger seperately. Ya can generally tell which is the weakest (apart from the little finger) or even a strength ball. The one that has the gyroscope or whatever its called in it. Five mins of using that felt like wan**rs cramp.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2008 9:14:47
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3295
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to Haizum

i posted this in another thread about rasgeo, it follows on from what ron was saying about stressing different fingers, and is really useful for both developing rhythmic control AND developing the ability to fit rasgeos into any compas in different ways, ie. you can play 3, 4, 5, 6, 8 whatever strokes per beat in solea, tientos, alegrias, siguiriyas, solea por bulerias, etc., etc., etc., you can skip the emaii bit and go straight to amii if you want....

To practise eamii, use it to play a 6 stroke rajeo (all down strokes except for 2nd i upstroke - 5th group ends down, and 6th starts up);

1 2 3 4 5 6 2 2 3 4 5 6 3 2 3 4 5 6 4 2 3 4 5 6 5 2 3 4 5 6
e a m i i e , a m i i e a , m i i e a m , i i e a m i , i e a m i i ,

Each group begins with, and therefore is easy to stress, a different finger.
Another way of doing it is to do 4 strokes with eamii;

1 2 3 4 2 2 3 4 3 2 3 4 4 2 3 4 5 2 3 4
e a m i , i e a m , i i e a , m i i e , a m i i ,

this is as well as the basic 5 stroke eamii, and should help to even that out.

You can do the same thing with amii, play a 5 stroke with it;

1 2 3 4 5 2 2 3 4 5 3 2 3 4 5 4 2 3 4 5
a m i i a , m i i a m , i i a m i , i a m i i ,

and/or a 3 stroke;

1 2 3 2 2 3 3 2 3 4 2 3
a m i , i a m , i i a , m i i ,

as well as the basic four stroke amii and should help to even that out.

you gonna have to practise this for like years at a time, so you better try and make this a bit more interesting, and as the goal is to play music, try to put it into compas, get creative with it.

Solea, tweaked a bit, 3 beats on each chord, F (maj7), C, F (maj7), E ; and/or try A-, G, F, E

1 e + a , 2 e + a , 3 and, 4 e + a , 5 e + a , 6 and,
e a m i i e a m i i e a m i i e a m i i

7 e + a , 8 e + a , 9 and, 10 e + a , 11 e + a , 12 and,
e a m i i e a m i i e a m i i e a m i i

(Beats 3, 6, 9, and 12 are just down up on and off the beat)

You can do the same thing with amii, but you can do 5 strokes per beat and/or 6 strokes per beat. 5's;

1 2 3 & 4 5 6 & 7 8 9 & 10 11 12 &
amiia, miiam, i i, amiia, miiam, i i, amiia, miiam, i i, amiia, miiam, i i

And 6's - something like this is used by Manolo Sanlucar and Vicente Amigo etc. (for the first 6 beats anyway - it's an exercise, so don't worry about it! );

1 2 3 & 4 5 6 & 7 8 9 & 10 11 12 &
amiiam, iiamii, i i, amiiam, iiamii, i i, amiiam, iiamii, i i, amiiam, iiamii, i i
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2008 11:36:08
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to mark indigo

Hi fellow sufferers,

This rasgueado thing is worth looking at closely.
I'd say forget looking at playing rasgueado as some sort of a "set piece"....that you start on a certain finger and finish on a certain finger etc.

I'm not an expert, but I reckon that the idea of trying to get independence of the fingers, like mark indigo seconded is the key to kind of "generalise" this technique without getting too caught up in how it is executed.

This is an example of a Tomatito thing I tried a while back and it would have been impossible for me to do if I had thought about rasgueado cycles having beginnings and ends on certain beats or fingers.

I just basically forgot about technique and just tried to get into the rhythm.

make sense?

cheers,

Ron


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2008 12:27:29
 
Mark2

Posts: 1579
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to Stu

Don't know about JM, but Mariano Cordoba used the four finger all down stroke ras (starting with the pinky) continuously and it sounded monsterous. He really had it down. I worked on it for years and never got it sounding consistantly as good. I could never consistantly make it even. It was frustrating. Some days it worked, some not. Kinda like a lot of other techniques for me. I eventually pretty much abandoned it in favor of Marote's. It creates an older style sound, and I've never seen anyone else do it as well as he did. I'm sure there are others who did it as well. It was very powerful, though. And it created a unique sound. He would use it dynamically, often starting it soft and building the volume to a roar. He also did the same ras, but led with the thumb going up, making it a five stroke. Even more of a power house, but maybe just as hard to do consistantly even.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stu

Yeah whats the deal with continous rasgueado without (i) up??

I never do this but have seen it in jm book.

do modern players/teachers use/promote this or what?

Stu
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 24 2008 14:52:46
 
Munin

 

Posts: 595
Joined: Sep. 30 2008
From: Hong Kong

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to SilverShark

That's a great piece, Ron! May I ask what album it is from? I'm really looking for some not too difficult rasgeado exercises in a more musical context. Doing them "dry" just bores me in the long run, but then, I really need to polish it up...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2008 1:17:46
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3295
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to Munin

quote:

I'm really looking for some not too difficult rasgeado exercises in a more musical context. Doing them "dry" just bores me in the long run


see above about putting them into solea context/using chord sequences, but see also about putting into other palos, eg. alegrias, which is the same rhythmically as solea, but obviously different chords, and you can use keys of A, E, C, you can put them into solea in A por medio, or D# phrygian or whatever, work them into solea por bulerias, siguiriyas, etc., etc., get creative, try different keys and different rhythms, different palos etc. that way you don't just develop rasgeo, you learn chords in different keys, you work on rhythm, etc. etc.

ps Ron's sample/example is from La Andonda on Rosas Del Amor cd, am I right Ron? i was waiting for the little run at the end of the rasgeo "theme" which just stumped me when i tried to learn it from the encuentro DVD - and you pulled it off, nice one mate!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2008 9:31:57
 
Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to Munin

Hi Munin,
I think Mark has identified the album, but I just learned it from a Tomatito/Cameron "live" video that was posted on YouTube.
It's a good exercise in ragueo!

cheers,

Ron
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 25 2008 11:24:45
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to farteindj

Lots of good stuff in this thread. I was doing quite a bit of copying and pasting for my notes. Thanks!


quote:

ORIGINAL: farteindj

Roger, my post was a reply to Eddie who wrote that "The muscles in the fingers are designed to grip. Great for holding beer but not for rasgueo." I kind of disagree with that point of view (except for the beer thing), cause it seems to imply that rasgueo is a technique that works against the anatomy of the hand -- no technique does IMO.

Thing is, I think my own problems with rasgueos are more due to using TOO much force to little effect than anything else, ie the muscles have more than enough strength, but I end up wasting it fighting myself rather than getting it into the guitar. Makes sense?

Farus


It's not that anatomy works against it. What works against it is that for most people, opening or flexion of (the fingers of) the hand is the activity that is most required in daily life. Even actions like scratching or typing are flexing.

When it comes to opening the hand, extension, we rarely need to have strength. Speed, maybe, but rarely strength.

So strength must be built up. However, for speed, movement has to be done with looseness. Muscles use different fibres for speed and strength activities too. So I would imagine that you need to use exercises or drills specific to each goal, separately.

As Ron points out, you do need to let loose occasionally, as the muscles and reflexes need to learn to move faster. If a runner plateaus in speed, the trick is to make him run down a hill where the only effort is getting the legs fast enough not to fall on one's face.

However, I would suggest that after letting loose (even to the point of exhaustion), you return to as slow a speed as you need to to practise 'perfect' movements and be very mindful of it because you are building kinaesthetic or muscle memory and you don't want to end a practice session with possibly learning a bad habit. (I used to fence and this was a common technique of training in workshops where we would finish a completely exhausting session with the fine point work exercises, focusing hard to control movements past the fatigue and trembling.


From a health point of view, it's important to exercise the opposing muscle groups of regular activities. Runners cure shin splints by using a strong elastic (e.g. bicycle inner tube) to lift their toes off the ground; shin splints is usually caused by over development of the calves while the opposing muscles (in the shins) are not developed sufficiently.
I got tennis elbow recently from gripping/work related activities, I used elastic bands and bungee cords with finger extension exercises, after which my elbows started healing better than anything else previously.


From a training point of view, you can plateau if opposing muscle groups are not trained enough to keep pace with the muscles most commonly used (diminishing returns).

So I imagine, flamenco tocaores with monster arpeggio and picado skills probably owe some of that to the strength and speed trained into the opposing muscles, used in rageo.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2008 16:09:56
 
Exitao

Posts: 907
Joined: Mar. 13 2006
From: Vancouver, Canada

RE: Trouble with Rasgueo (in reply to Mark2

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2

Don't know about JM, but Mariano Cordoba used the four finger all down stroke ras (starting with the pinky) continuously and it sounded monsterous. He really had it down. I worked on it for years and never got it sounding consistantly as good. I could never consistantly make it even. It was frustrating. Some days it worked, some not. Kinda like a lot of other techniques for me. I eventually pretty much abandoned it in favor of Marote's. It creates an older style sound, and I've never seen anyone else do it as well as he did. I'm sure there are others who did it as well. It was very powerful, though. And it created a unique sound. He would use it dynamically, often starting it soft and building the volume to a roar. He also did the same ras, but led with the thumb going up, making it a five stroke. Even more of a power house, but maybe just as hard to do consistantly even.



I saw a bit of an encuentro video with Merengue de Cordoba and he doesa 4 finger rageo (with and without the extra i, IRC), without anchoring his thumb at all.

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Callidus et iracundus.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 27 2008 16:15:00
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