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Dance and cante accompaignement advices   You are logged in as Guest
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Franchiquito

 

Posts: 245
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Italy

Dance and cante accompaignement advices 

How is it possible to learn cante and baile accompaignement in a school?
In my city there are a lot of flamenco dance school, i'd like to enter and start learning accompaignement but i don't how to approach them, how to introduce myself etc etc.

anyone can give advices or suggestions on how to approach the problem?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2007 14:33:25
 
John O.

Posts: 1720
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to Franchiquito

Cante accompanyment outside of Spain is really tough to find. If there's a singer at one of your schools, go for it!

As far as Baile goes, just go into one of the schools and ask the instructor if they know of a good guitarist. Most flamenco guitarists accompany at dance schools for part of their living and most will offer to let you sit in if you take lessons from them!

Good luck,
John

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2007 14:57:17
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to Franchiquito

John, what is with money? Is it not good to accompany for free? Not that i would take money, im just beginning. But would you ask, if they dont offer it from theirselves?

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2007 15:04:19
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to XXX

quote:

what is with money?


thats a tricky one, if they offer fine but most of the time for a guitarist whos never accompanied before most of the time they dont pay, depends on the person u are dealing with, its different in each situation, but expect to put in atlist 1 to 2 years of free accomp, and also expect to have to move schools after that time to get paid because the teacher will always see the unexperienced accompanist that walked trough the door 2 years ago, there comes a time when u can say " Ok , i would like to get paid now please"

but like i said its different in each situation, there are many people who will pay straight away.

but the way i see it u are using the teacher as much as he or she is using u in the first 2 years.

my circumasances were very different , i was a beginner beginner at guitar had mibe 4 months of lessons and dance teacher told me to start going into classes, i was learning compas and learning getting used to guitar at the same time as i was learning to accompany it was pretty hard, i was humiliated and embarrased and thrown into the deep end way too soon but i dont regret a second of it, one thing any guitarist needs when accompaning is to develop thick skin and lose your ego.

and i did free accomp for about 4 years but like i said i used the teacher as much as she used me.

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Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2007 15:15:01
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to Florian

To add to what Florian and John said, two more things to bear in mind are the level of the class (compared to your level as a player) and also how many other flamenco guitarists there are knocking on the door.

In other words, if there are not many flamenco players in the area and none working at the school then will probably welcome you with open arms, especially if its a beginners level class.

My experience was the same as above i.e. started doing it for free but now I get paid.

Just dive in and go for it. Take your guitar along to a dance class, go see the instructor and see what happens, you have nothing to lose.

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Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2007 15:47:31
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2007 16:32:17
 
koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to Franchiquito

If I may add something to this.

Even when you're unexperienced, when the teacher is charging the students extra for live accompanying, you should at least get paid something !
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2007 16:40:16
 
Franchiquito

 

Posts: 245
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Italy

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to Franchiquito

thank you very much guys! I plucked up courage and called,
waiting for an answer! let's hope so!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2007 16:57:12
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13289
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to koella

quote:

Even when you're unexperienced, when the teacher is charging the students extra for live accompanying, you should at least get paid something !


True. Even if you are "learning on the job", you are still working and DOING the job, so deserve to be paid or compensated in some way. BUT, if you are generally fuera compas, missing endings constantly, and don't really "get it" or just practicing your solos or techniques while they 'dance to it", that is not really doing your job. Or you should be "fired", . But most teachers forgive these mistakes if you are learning, but for god's sake you should not be charging if you can't keep a beat. So best is to ask the teacher while understanding where YOU stand as a player at the same time.

Number one problem I find with students playing for dance is tempo. If teahcer says, please don't speed up, and you say "I was going with you guys....", umm, you are not helping the class, nor are you learning. Holding down the tempo the teacher wants is priority one.



Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2007 17:59:47
 
John O.

Posts: 1720
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to Ricardo

You'll also wanna watch out for guitarists who think you're "ruining the business" by working for free. If others get paid playing at the same school, make sure you talk to the other guitarists before doing it for cheaper.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 16 2007 22:27:46
 
John O.

Posts: 1720
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to John O.

You'll get frustrated more than once, don't give up though. I've been at it three years. Not to say I'm the quickest learner or that I have it all down now, but it took me a while to discover the similarities in the different choreographies and develop a certain intuition needed. At least now I can say I'm earning what I get paid at the school I'm at

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 8:42:13
 
Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to Franchiquito

Do you think it would be appropriate if the guitarist had to pay the dancing teacher if he plays for dance classes for the first time?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 10:40:38
 
John O.

Posts: 1720
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to Georg

I'd say if necessary meet after classes for that. After all, there are dance students who are paying for the accompanyment.

It is possible to get great tips from a dance instructor as a teacher once you're able to speak the same language.

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 10:51:59
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to Georg

quote:

ORIGINAL: GuxDiBux
Do you think it would be appropriate if the guitarist had to pay the dancing teacher if he plays for dance classes for the first time?


Definitely not. Doing it for free is one thing...but paying the dance instructor??

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Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 10:54:24
 
koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to Franchiquito

I would say, if the dance instructor can really teach you ( methodically ) how to accompany, what do play in what palos, how she counts, show you llamada's, silencio ( etc. ) to keep attention to. Well, I would say offer to pay for that info. It can give you a good start.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 11:11:57
 
John O.

Posts: 1720
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to Jon Boyes

My words exactly. It can teach you a lot going through a choreography with a professional dancer if the dancer can explain things to you as a guitarist correctly. I learned a lot from doing this but didn't pay for it, it was for a show we would both get paid for. This is of course the better way to go if possible...

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 11:16:47
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to koella

quote:

ORIGINAL: koella
I would say, if the dance instructor can really teach you ( methodically ) how to accompany, what do play in what palos, how she counts, show you llamada's, silencio ( etc. ) to keep attention to. Well, I would say offer to pay for that info.


You're missing the point, its not his/her job to do all that in the class, there isn't time. The instructor is there to teach the dance students, not the guitarist.

You learn a lot from accompanying but its not like having guitar lessons, most dancers would simply not have knowledge to show you what you should be doing.

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Spanish Guitarist in Devon, Cornwall and Somerset
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 11:27:23
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to John O.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John O.
It can teach you a lot going through a choreography with a professional dancer if the dancer can explain things to you as a guitarist correctly. I learned a lot from doing this but didn't pay for it, it was for a show we would both get paid for.


Aha, now that is a very good point. Its one thing belting out the same thing for an hour or two in a dance class where the learning curve can sometimes be small, and another entirely when you start working with a dancer and building a choreography together.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 11:31:42
 
John O.

Posts: 1720
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Number one problem I find with students playing for dance is tempo. If teahcer says, please don't speed up, and you say "I was going with you guys....", umm, you are not helping the class, nor are you learning. Holding down the tempo the teacher wants is priority one.


Oops, done that. It wasn't until the actual show though, ahem. We were supposed to speed up at the end/climax, but I guess not as much as we did. I was kind of caught up in the excitement. At least it came over really well, though it pissed off the instructor...

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 11:35:00
 
XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005
 

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to John O.

The competition here up north is not that big. There are two more flamencos, who already have done alot accomp but now only accomp on shows, not in classes. So there are two instructors doing their classes with CDs atm.

I would never pay for dancer. For guitar teacher teaching me dance acommp, maybe yes. But then i would prefer him teaching me falsetas instad of accomp. Its only fun. Last time there was a female cajon player i played first time with. That is alot of fun.

With or without money. Not so important. Hopfeully it will be fun. The only problem is my guitar. Its not loud enough. I took it to a pro luthier who also makes flamencoguitars for 6000 € (!) and he said it is very bad constructed, especially the angle at the bridge is too low, the holes are too high.

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Фламенко
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 11:35:34
 
John O.

Posts: 1720
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to Jon Boyes

quote:

when you start working with a dancer and building a choreography together


Exactly - that's where you ask "How do I know that llamada's coming?", she shows you and you're like AAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAA!!! when you realize she's doing it often whenever she needs a llamada.

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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 11:39:31
 
koella

Posts: 2194
Joined: Sep. 10 2005
From: holland

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to Jon Boyes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jon Boyes

You're missing the point, its not his/her job to do all that in the class, there isn't time. The instructor is there to teach the dance students, not the guitarist.

You learn a lot from accompanying but its not like having guitar lessons, most dancers would simply not have knowledge to show you what you should be doing.


Yes it depends on the quality of the teacher. If she knows what is musically going on, she can learn you a lot.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 11:41:53
 
buleria

 

Posts: 88
Joined: Jan. 6 2005
 

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to Franchiquito

Just to give the perspective of a dance teacher here - I would agree with many of the comments, particularly Florian's. I always pay the guitarist I work regularly with - because he is an excellent at accompanying dance as well as solo playing. (not always the same thing) However, if someone just called me up and offered to sit in, I wouldn't offer them anything in the first instance. I have known guitarists with a lot of complicated falsettas who cannot keep simple compas. If they are using the class to improve their compas, then that's fine but I don't see why I should pay them for it. (I also wouldn't charge them for spending my time explaining llamadas, dance structure etc) I also think there are some guitarists who perceive playing for a class as somehow 'second rate'. They think it's easy and just play whatever, whenever and wonder why you get annoyed. Luckily, there are not many of these but if one appeared I would not exactly be over the moon - and would be very glad if they went elsewhere! Karenanne
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 14:58:36
 
Mark2

Posts: 1692
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to Franchiquito

A teacher I worked for always wanted to have a guitarist in her classes and she paid me from day one, when I knew almost nothing about playing for dance. I could keep compas however, but I made a lot of mistakes. At a certain point I started working with her on her dances outside of class, and that is when i really started to get it. She never charged me for that, and unless she also had had guitar knowledge (ie:play a triplet ras here, then change to B7 here), it wouldn't be right to do so, IMO.

A class, unless they are very advanced, cannot usually complete a professional dance and you could spend years in classes without learning how to play all the things needed for a pro level dance. Teachers often simplify and shorten the dances they teach their students. They usually can't reach the speed or have the strengh and stamina to do the full length dances. A big solea/sig/alegrias can last over ten minutes. That's a lot to remember and execute.

To really do a good job playing for classes, you need to know what the teacher wants. It'a a matter of getting to know her and what she likes. Ideally, you should be supporting the class by playing things that will help them get the steps they are working on. Hopefully, you can also play inspiring things that keep everyone's interest, including your own. Guitarists who get paid to to play for a class full of women have a really good situation, IMO. In my area three hours of classes pays as much some jazz gigs...........with no dancing girls.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 18:02:57
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13289
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to XXX

quote:

especially the angle at the bridge is too low, the holes are too high.


This problem can also happen to guitars with low bridge that you stretch strings by pulling up hard to stretch them. Very bad. Anyway, I had a friend with a guitar bought used that had a similar problem, not revealed until the bone was lowered as far as possible to break Angle ZERO. I took to a friendly luthier who filled the string holes with Rosewood and redrilled at a proper low angle. Then we could lower the bone and the guitar is set perfect IMO. The price of that job was less than $150. So something to think about.

Also the LOUDEST guitar is not necessarily the best sounding guitar. Best to use a PA system for large dance classes.

Ricardo
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 17 2007 20:24:32
 
Franchiquito

 

Posts: 245
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Italy

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to Franchiquito

Wow!
this topic is going to contain a big number of useful informations
probably it should be entitled in a different manner....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2007 6:06:30
 
Florian

Posts: 9240
Joined: Jul. 14 2003
From: Adelaide/Australia

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to Franchiquito

Kareanne, i must say its really nice to have a dancer here, to always get a different prespective on everything, its nice to hear from both dancers and guitarists.


we should start something here :-)

10 things a guitarist expects from a dancer

and you in return write

10 things a dancer expects from the guitarist

it might be fun and educational for both sides of the champ, not saying u dont allready know this, but perhaps, its nice to see them side by side, and mibe we all learn something new about the other.

il start.. No 1. Top things a guitarist expects from a dancer.

1st most furstrating thing for every guitarist is ,Dancers talking trough the Intros IMO :-)


now your turn think hard, be frank and dont worry about hurting anyones feelings

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Rest In Peace Ron, I will never ever forget you my friend.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2007 10:21:09
 
John O.

Posts: 1720
Joined: Dec. 16 2005
From: Seeheim-Jugenheim, Germany

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to Florian

quote:

think hard, be frank and dont worry about hurting anyones feelings


I like your name, Kareanne, please don't be Frank...


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Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 18 2007 11:20:52
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13289
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to John O.

quote:

Oops, done that. It wasn't until the actual show though, ahem. We were supposed to speed up at the end/climax, but I guess not as much as we did.


Oh, missed that before. Actually, I am talking about in class. Of course in a performance you got to come across as "together" for the audience sake, not like you are teaching a lesson to the student performers on stage. But in class, you HAVE to teach a lesson about tempo. That is the point.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2007 3:10:24
 
c

Posts: 320
Joined: Nov. 20 2005
From: manitoba, canada

RE: How the hell.... (in reply to Ricardo

Ricardo
Do you teach guitar accompany in a dance class?
I know THAT YOU ARE A FANTASTIC GUITARIST
but in a dance class thats far from important
I find Guitarists have to pull back and be what the dancers really need.....
even just playing for dance means playing subdued
from what solo guitar can be
But after saying that...... concentration ...is so important
Flamenco can sound so cool but for it to be useable in dance class
Simple and precise is so more important.........

right?

c
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 19 2007 4:19:58
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