Dance and cante accompaignement advices

Dance and cante accompaignement advices (Full Version)

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Franchiquito -> Dance and cante accompaignement advices (Apr. 16 2007 14:33:25)
How is it possible to learn cante and baile accompaignement in a school? In my city there are a lot of flamenco dance school, i'd like to enter and start learning accompaignement but i don't how to approach them, how to introduce myself etc etc. anyone can give advices or suggestions on how to approach the problem?

John O. -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 16 2007 14:57:17)
Cante accompanyment outside of Spain is really tough to find. If there's a singer at one of your schools, go for it! As far as Baile goes, just go into one of the schools and ask the instructor if they know of a good guitarist. Most flamenco guitarists accompany at dance schools for part of their living and most will offer to let you sit in if you take lessons from them! Good luck, John

XXX -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 16 2007 15:04:19)
John, what is with money? Is it not good to accompany for free? Not that i would take money, im just beginning. But would you ask, if they dont offer it from theirselves?

Florian -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 16 2007 15:15:01)
quote: what is with money? thats a tricky one, if they offer fine but most of the time for a guitarist whos never accompanied before most of the time they dont pay, depends on the person u are dealing with, its different in each situation, but expect to put in atlist 1 to 2 years of free accomp, and also expect to have to move schools after that time to get paid because the teacher will always see the unexperienced accompanist that walked trough the door 2 years ago, there comes a time when u can say " Ok , i would like to get paid now please" but like i said its different in each situation, there are many people who will pay straight away. but the way i see it u are using the teacher as much as he or she is using u in the first 2 years. my circumasances were very different , i was a beginner beginner at guitar had mibe 4 months of lessons and dance teacher told me to start going into classes, i was learning compas and learning getting used to guitar at the same time as i was learning to accompany it was pretty hard, i was humiliated and embarrased and thrown into the deep end way too soon [:D] but i dont regret a second of it, one thing any guitarist needs when accompaning is to develop thick skin and lose your ego. and i did free accomp for about 4 years but like i said i used the teacher as much as she used me.

Jon Boyes -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 16 2007 15:47:31)
To add to what Florian and John said, two more things to bear in mind are the level of the class (compared to your level as a player) and also how many other flamenco guitarists there are knocking on the door. In other words, if there are not many flamenco players in the area and none working at the school then will probably welcome you with open arms, especially if its a beginners level class. My experience was the same as above i.e. started doing it for free but now I get paid. Just dive in and go for it. Take your guitar along to a dance class, go see the instructor and see what happens, you have nothing to lose.

Guest -> [Deleted] (Apr. 16 2007 16:32:17)
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koella -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 16 2007 16:40:16)
If I may add something to this.[&:] Even when you're unexperienced, when the teacher is charging the students extra for live accompanying, you should at least get paid something !

Franchiquito -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 16 2007 16:57:12)
thank you very much guys! I plucked up courage and called, waiting for an answer! let's hope so!

Ricardo -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 16 2007 17:59:47)
quote: Even when you're unexperienced, when the teacher is charging the students extra for live accompanying, you should at least get paid something ! True. Even if you are "learning on the job", you are still working and DOING the job, so deserve to be paid or compensated in some way. BUT, if you are generally fuera compas, missing endings constantly, and don't really "get it" or just practicing your solos or techniques while they 'dance to it", that is not really doing your job. Or you should be "fired", [:D]. But most teachers forgive these mistakes if you are learning, but for god's sake you should not be charging if you can't keep a beat. So best is to ask the teacher while understanding where YOU stand as a player at the same time. Number one problem I find with students playing for dance is tempo. If teahcer says, please don't speed up, and you say "I was going with you guys....", umm, you are not helping the class, nor are you learning. Holding down the tempo the teacher wants is priority one. Ricardo

John O. -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 16 2007 22:27:46)
You'll also wanna watch out for guitarists who think you're "ruining the business" by working for free. If others get paid playing at the same school, make sure you talk to the other guitarists before doing it for cheaper.

John O. -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 17 2007 8:42:13)
You'll get frustrated more than once, don't give up though. I've been at it three years. Not to say I'm the quickest learner or that I have it all down now, but it took me a while to discover the similarities in the different choreographies and develop a certain intuition needed. At least now I can say I'm earning what I get paid at the school I'm at [:)]

Georg -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 17 2007 10:40:38)
Do you think it would be appropriate if the guitarist had to pay the dancing teacher if he plays for dance classes for the first time?

John O. -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 17 2007 10:51:59)
I'd say if necessary meet after classes for that. After all, there are dance students who are paying for the accompanyment. It is possible to get great tips from a dance instructor as a teacher once you're able to speak the same language.

Jon Boyes -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 17 2007 10:54:24)
quote: ORIGINAL: GuxDiBux Do you think it would be appropriate if the guitarist had to pay the dancing teacher if he plays for dance classes for the first time? Definitely not. Doing it for free is one thing...but paying the dance instructor??

koella -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 17 2007 11:11:57)
I would say, if the dance instructor can really teach you ( methodically ) how to accompany, what do play in what palos, how she counts, show you llamada's, silencio ( etc. ) to keep attention to. Well, I would say offer to pay for that info. It can give you a good start. [:)]

John O. -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 17 2007 11:16:47)
My words exactly. It can teach you a lot going through a choreography with a professional dancer if the dancer can explain things to you as a guitarist correctly. I learned a lot from doing this but didn't pay for it, it was for a show we would both get paid for. This is of course the better way to go if possible...

Jon Boyes -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 17 2007 11:27:23)
quote: ORIGINAL: koella I would say, if the dance instructor can really teach you ( methodically ) how to accompany, what do play in what palos, how she counts, show you llamada's, silencio ( etc. ) to keep attention to. Well, I would say offer to pay for that info. You're missing the point, its not his/her job to do all that in the class, there isn't time. The instructor is there to teach the dance students, not the guitarist. You learn a lot from accompanying but its not like having guitar lessons, most dancers would simply not have knowledge to show you what you should be doing.

Jon Boyes -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 17 2007 11:31:42)
quote: ORIGINAL: John O. It can teach you a lot going through a choreography with a professional dancer if the dancer can explain things to you as a guitarist correctly. I learned a lot from doing this but didn't pay for it, it was for a show we would both get paid for. Aha, now that is a very good point. Its one thing belting out the same thing for an hour or two in a dance class where the learning curve can sometimes be small, and another entirely when you start working with a dancer and building a choreography together.

John O. -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 17 2007 11:35:00)
quote: Number one problem I find with students playing for dance is tempo. If teahcer says, please don't speed up, and you say "I was going with you guys....", umm, you are not helping the class, nor are you learning. Holding down the tempo the teacher wants is priority one. Oops, done that. It wasn't until the actual show though, ahem. We were supposed to speed up at the end/climax, but I guess not as much as we did. I was kind of caught up in the excitement. At least it came over really well, though it pissed off the instructor...

XXX -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 17 2007 11:35:34)
The competition here up north is not that big. There are two more flamencos, who already have done alot accomp but now only accomp on shows, not in classes. So there are two instructors doing their classes with CDs atm. I would never pay for dancer. For guitar teacher teaching me dance acommp, maybe yes. But then i would prefer him teaching me falsetas instad of accomp. Its only fun. Last time there was a female cajon player i played first time with. That is alot of fun. With or without money. Not so important. Hopfeully it will be fun. The only problem is my guitar. Its not loud enough. I took it to a pro luthier who also makes flamencoguitars for 6000 € (!) and he said it is very bad constructed, especially the angle at the bridge is too low, the holes are too high. [X(]

John O. -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 17 2007 11:39:31)
quote: when you start working with a dancer and building a choreography together Exactly - that's where you ask "How do I know that llamada's coming?", she shows you and you're like AAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAA!!! when you realize she's doing it often whenever she needs a llamada.

koella -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 17 2007 11:41:53)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jon Boyes You're missing the point, its not his/her job to do all that in the class, there isn't time. The instructor is there to teach the dance students, not the guitarist. You learn a lot from accompanying but its not like having guitar lessons, most dancers would simply not have knowledge to show you what you should be doing. Yes it depends on the quality of the teacher. If she knows what is musically going on, she can learn you a lot.

buleria -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 17 2007 14:58:36)
Just to give the perspective of a dance teacher here - I would agree with many of the comments, particularly Florian's. I always pay the guitarist I work regularly with - because he is an excellent at accompanying dance as well as solo playing. (not always the same thing) However, if someone just called me up and offered to sit in, I wouldn't offer them anything in the first instance. I have known guitarists with a lot of complicated falsettas who cannot keep simple compas. If they are using the class to improve their compas, then that's fine but I don't see why I should pay them for it. (I also wouldn't charge them for spending my time explaining llamadas, dance structure etc) I also think there are some guitarists who perceive playing for a class as somehow 'second rate'. They think it's easy and just play whatever, whenever and wonder why you get annoyed. Luckily, there are not many of these but if one appeared I would not exactly be over the moon - and would be very glad if they went elsewhere! Karenanne

Mark2 -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 17 2007 18:02:57)
A teacher I worked for always wanted to have a guitarist in her classes and she paid me from day one, when I knew almost nothing about playing for dance. I could keep compas however, but I made a lot of mistakes. At a certain point I started working with her on her dances outside of class, and that is when i really started to get it. She never charged me for that, and unless she also had had guitar knowledge (ie:play a triplet ras here, then change to B7 here), it wouldn't be right to do so, IMO. A class, unless they are very advanced, cannot usually complete a professional dance and you could spend years in classes without learning how to play all the things needed for a pro level dance. Teachers often simplify and shorten the dances they teach their students. They usually can't reach the speed or have the strengh and stamina to do the full length dances. A big solea/sig/alegrias can last over ten minutes. That's a lot to remember and execute. To really do a good job playing for classes, you need to know what the teacher wants. It'a a matter of getting to know her and what she likes. Ideally, you should be supporting the class by playing things that will help them get the steps they are working on. Hopefully, you can also play inspiring things that keep everyone's interest, including your own. Guitarists who get paid to to play for a class full of women have a really good situation, IMO. In my area three hours of classes pays as much some jazz gigs...........with no dancing girls. [;)]

Ricardo -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 17 2007 20:24:32)
quote: especially the angle at the bridge is too low, the holes are too high. This problem can also happen to guitars with low bridge that you stretch strings by pulling up hard to stretch them. Very bad. Anyway, I had a friend with a guitar bought used that had a similar problem, not revealed until the bone was lowered as far as possible to break Angle ZERO. I took to a friendly luthier who filled the string holes with Rosewood and redrilled at a proper low angle. Then we could lower the bone and the guitar is set perfect IMO. The price of that job was less than $150. So something to think about. Also the LOUDEST guitar is not necessarily the best sounding guitar. Best to use a PA system for large dance classes. Ricardo

Franchiquito -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 18 2007 6:06:30)
Wow! this topic is going to contain a big number of useful informations probably it should be entitled in a different manner....

Florian -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 18 2007 10:21:09)
Kareanne, i must say its really nice to have a dancer here, to always get a different prespective on everything, its nice to hear from both dancers and guitarists. we should start something here :-) 10 things a guitarist expects from a dancer and you in return write 10 things a dancer expects from the guitarist it might be fun and educational for both sides of the champ, not saying u dont allready know this, but perhaps, its nice to see them side by side, and mibe we all learn something new about the other. il start.. No 1. Top things a guitarist expects from a dancer. 1st most furstrating thing for every guitarist is ,Dancers talking trough the Intros IMO :-) now your turn [:D] think hard, be frank and dont worry about hurting anyones feelings [:D]

John O. -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 18 2007 11:20:52)
quote: think hard, be frank and dont worry about hurting anyones feelings I like your name, Kareanne, please don't be Frank... [:D][:D][:D]

Ricardo -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 19 2007 3:10:24)
quote: Oops, done that. It wasn't until the actual show though, ahem. We were supposed to speed up at the end/climax, but I guess not as much as we did. Oh, missed that before. Actually, I am talking about in class. Of course in a performance you got to come across as "together" for the audience sake, not like you are teaching a lesson to the student performers on stage. But in class, you HAVE to teach a lesson about tempo. That is the point.

c -> RE: How the hell.... (Apr. 19 2007 4:19:58)
Ricardo Do you teach guitar accompany in a dance class? I know THAT YOU ARE A FANTASTIC GUITARIST but in a dance class thats far from important I find Guitarists have to pull back and be what the dancers really need..... even just playing for dance means playing subdued from what solo guitar can be But after saying that...... concentration ...is so important Flamenco can sound so cool but for it to be useable in dance class Simple and precise is so more important......... right? c

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