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There is no consensus on notating bulerias, solea, and seguiriyas. In the case of seguiriyas, many transcribers start on the second beat of the 3/4 measure (or equivalent) and they either notate full measures, one of 3/4 and another of 6/8.
Herrero uses a solid barline to separate the beginning of the compas in the 3/4 measure and dotted lines for the 6/8 measure and the final beat (which is the first beat of the 3/4 measure.
After listening to a lot of old seguiriyas, it seems to me that the 6/8 measure came first. The recognizable 6/8-3/4 hemiola eventually got displaced by a rhythmic cadence at the first beat of the 3/4 measure and an anacrusis phrse picked up back into the 6/8 measure. And that is how we got to the weirdness of the seguirya.
Most people on the foro will probably be able to read the examples I am including. The first example is from one of my teachers and I notated it using a compound meter of 3/4-6/8 with a dotted line to signal the beginning of the compas. All staves are either two or four bars long so that the compas is always intact on a staff. (I hate when transcribers divide a compas, or even several, across multiple staves. I suppose that is a printing and economic issue but there are ways to tidy up transcriptions so that they don't have to do that).
The middle example is Herrero's and the one counted in "5" seems like one of the better ways to notate it. My way is just a modification of that. As you can see though, he divides the compas up (ugh).
Faucher also uses the "5" count (starting on the second beat of what would be the 3/4 measure). He just uses solid barlines throughout. Does that make any difference to anyone, or is it all irrelevant since most people can read most of the conventional ways of notating it?
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RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Romerito)
quote:
Does that make any difference to anyone, or is it all irrelevant since most people can read most of the conventional ways of notating it?
It is irrelevant to performance/learning how to play or interpret stuff. We get used to any and all transcriptions. At this point I have no major issues with this topic, having had to compromise my own method to fit the Juan Serrano series with Mel bay recently (and to come this year vol. 3 of the series). In other words "practice what I preach" was not even permitted or it looks like a "conflict" between authors, which is not what I want to show.
I do have however, a LOT more insight into the historical reasonings behind all the variations coupled to form and song title, and would love to go through some concrete historical score examples to make my case. But I don't have time today. If you are interested check back tomorrow or maybe we can take it off line since I have like 6 or 7 scores to show.
RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Romerito)
My father who at the time was the head teacher of classical guitar at Rotterdam Conservatory wend to a guitar congres in Mettmann in 1984 aiming to meet Paco Peña and Manuel Barrueco. He brought his flamencoguitar, his 11 string alto guitar and his baroque guitar.
Paco's 2th lesson started with checking out the students recollection of the 1th lesson. That turned out to be a great disappointment. Most if not all participants were classical guitarists used to read music transcriptions only and not to learn by means of monkey see monkey do.
My father who excelled in both disciplines already had the first lesson on paper (for private use) and suggested to share it with the other students before checking them again. That worked well and saved the day so for the remaning lessons my father became the translator between Paco (who couldn't read an write music) and the others who couldn't manage without a written score. So every day after class my father and Paco met so my father could provide partitures up front for the next day lesson.
That's how their friendship was borne. At the time flamenco transcripts still were quite rare and often wrong (flamencoplayers generally were not able write/ read music themself and the ones hired to do it for them often lacked compasknowkedge with notes ending up all over the place). Paco actualy was convinced flamenco could not be captured in a written score. My father showed him that was actualy true for all types of music. To make his point my father played Paco some Bach on his altoguitar. First the way it was actualy written, then with a more baroque phrasing and next adding some melodic decorations showing there are 2 disciplines, on one hand the annotation that have to be readable and on the other hand the skills of a knowledgeable player who knows how to read/play/interpret it. Next he showed Paco rasgueado already was comon practice in the guitara Español. Paco always suspected that to be the case but now he could see it with his own eyes in the old partitures.
When my father told him that for his classical guitar students at Rotterdam Conservatory he offered a special interest course teaching them some flamenco basics. Paco instandly offered to drop them a visit and do a guest appearance. As it turned out my father's flamenco study group was quite the way Paco had in mind for his future flamencoschool. He already had plans to start a flamenco academy at a Conservatory, no mather where.
As it happened the director of Rotterdam Conservatory was a huge flamenco lover. In 1984 the 16 year old Vicente was invited to give a demonstration concert which left the director so enthausiastically he decided to do the unthinkable and to start the first flamencoguitar academy in the world. So not a special interest course for their classical guitar students but as a completely new 5 year study discipline. So the question remained who should be the head of this new study discipline. He himself aspired Paco de Lucia but everyone he asked (including my father) told him to ask Paco Peña in stead (obviously De Lucia was our flamenco God as well but there is a difference between being the best player and being the best candidate for a project like this. Paco Peña already had a keen interest in how to teach others by means of a step to step path developing one's technical and musical skills, an approach he shared with my father).
So it became indeed Paco Peña and to my father's surprise Paco Peña only exepted the job on condition my father would join the team. That first year about 144 people auditioned to join in as a student 11 of who (including me) were exepted as a student.
My father covered the weekly guitar lessons (Paco only was there once a month), the technique lessons, the lessons/exams in the history of the instrument and the art of teaching and on top co-supervised the didactic fundaments of this new discipline (one of his expertises) and obviously was in charge of making the music transcripts that came with it.
That finaly brings me to your siguiriyas. My father who was an expert in music annotation already had a lifetime of experience when it came to crossing paths with (annotated) seguiriyas and noticed that in the past decades/century many (including famous Spanish composers) tried to grasp it's Compas but all failed miserably in catching it. They all came up with different ways to annotate/interpret the compas and so did my father..... It is verry well possible that in the old days the Compas of seguiriyas was played even more rubato then it is at precent day making grasping the compas even more difficult.
My father choose to write it down just the way it is, meaning a 5 beat compas starting on beat 1 and ending after beat 5 so basically like in your 2th example but WHITHOUT the noncence of deviding it into smaller groups so just 1 bar closing the Compas after beat 5 and that's it.
When Paco showed my father's first seguiriyas transcription to some classical bobo's that crossed his way they all told him my father was dead wrong and it should be annotated in 3/4 6/8. So Paco told my father to do it like that which my father rightfully refused to do (Paco's choice to include my father actualy was way wizer then he could have imagined). As always when they had a dispute Paco changed his mind/view later on and soon became an ambassador of my father's way of annotating siguiriyas. Whenever a classical Bobo told him it should be 3/4/ 6/8 Paco would smash their ears with my father's transcriptions stating this is how WE do it :-).
Years later Paco Serrano had the ambition to become a teacher at the Conservatory of Cordoba. One of their demands was he had to graduate at Rotterdam Conservatory first. So Paco Serrano came to Rotterdam to do just that. The fun thing was that at the time many over here claimed that rather then studying in Rotterdam one would be better of going to Spain and take lessons from Paco Serrano. And now, much to their horror Paco Serrano became a student of Rotterdam Conservatory (but also a teacher sharing his experience in the art of accompanying singers and dansers). He himself had the smart concept of having 1 set of the needed ingredients (like intro, falseta, escobilla etc) for each style so he could cover each style and work up his way from there.
He had guitar lessons from Paco Peña and received private lessons in the art of teaching and music annotation from my father for various years. When Paco Serrano was asked to join the encuentro study book/video series he would have favored my father to do the transcriptions but the publicer already had a contract for the whole series with someone else. Years later Vicente's publisher asked my father to do the transcriptions of the first Vicente Amigo book but failing the time to do so he passed it on to one of his students (Max). He also had to decline the request of the Rosenberg trio to cover their repertoire. One only has 1 life and for the Rotterdam Conservatory alone he singlehandedly wrote about 1400 pages of essential flamenco partitures.
Years after Paco Serrano graduated the foro was buzzing over a new lessonbook that was to be published by Paco Serrano. I assumed it was the still unpublished exercise book Paco Serrano had written years before which at the time was annotated by my father because Serrano himself still lacked the skills to do so.
But when a few small examples were shown on the foro it became clear to me it was a new book annotated by Paco Serrano himself. It looked pretty good but everything that made his transcriptions better then most were inventions of my father including annotating seguiriyas in a 5 beat system so various years of receiving private coaching by my father seemed to pay of.
I don't own the book myself but the seguiriyas included in that book seems to be a good example of how seguiriyas should be annotated.
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RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Romerito)
Erik, great anecdote. I personally like Herrero's version for practical matters but it ignores the historical evolution of the compas. The example in question is for practical use, so it might be better to use Herrero. (Problem is, shifting an entire piece by one beat in any editing software can range from super quick and simple to downright horrifyingly time-consuming).
@Ricardo: Thanks Ricardo. I already have scores and also transcriptions of the early discos de pizarra, which is really where the evolution can be heard. The early scores can be helpful but they suffer from what Erik pointed out; they are mostly interpretations by "erudite" musicians in time signatures that don't necessarily reflect a) the compas of flamenco, nor b) its evolution.
RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Romerito)
I remember my father once agreed to make some scores for a publisher. He was asked to instal/use a professional program (finale) which was a hell to learn. It took my father over a year to learn how to handle it. As far as longer time lines and bars were concerned he discovered that sometimes it was easier to use extra bars when entering the notes and remove the unwanted bars afterwards. When after years of struggling my father finally had it in his computer and to his liking disaster stoke. As it turned out the publisher used Apple and my father windos and on the apple version the notes ended up all over the place. On another occasion they agreed to use/publish my father's handwritten scores for which occasion he changed his writing style in a more straight lined way of writing. Don't think it was ever published.
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RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Romerito)
quote:
I already have scores and also transcriptions of the early discos de pizarra, which is really where the evolution can be heard.
We can trace things in the early audio evidence, knowing it is also the tip of a bigger iceberg. At least it gives us the time stamps of "before and after this date". But I am talking about much OLDER material, like where it comes from in more specific examples rather than "it is the hemiola and it is everywhere and popular in Spain". "proto flamenco" if you must. Knowing the trajectory I suggest might be informative interms of interpretation or decision making in the future. But if nobody else cares, I will keep it to myself.
Before moving on, please understand there are even other versions, such as David Leiva's Luzia score, 5 bars that represent the accents with quarter notes (2/4, 2/4, 3/4, 3/4, 2/4). As coming from drumming this is more "correct" than alternating 3/4 and 6/8 because when you switch notes like that you need to re-express WHAT gets the tempo EVERY damn bar or it is WRONG. Or at least add "8th=8th" at the start of the score. The old finale program made me learn that reality the hard way, and classical music transcribers take it for granted this changing meters is plain WRONG without that clarification. Really what they wanted was freedom to "beam 8th notes" as they need it.
Along with Erik's dad possibly (we can't see anything yet, but I believe him), I noticed after playing for dance classes early on that my drummer sensibility was like "no this is neither 3 nor 6 going on". It is basically a relentless expression of two odd meters, 7/8 and 5/8, though with a specific pattern: 1.2.1.2.123 plus 123,1.2. The lack of symmetry between 7 and 5 is born out by the fact unlike ALL the other compases we use in flamenco, there is NO SYMMETRY breaking ever. At least not deliberately like often occurs in the other 12,6, or 8 count cycles. The historical thing I wanted to show is that this likely came from the poetic meter historically, or I suspect it influenced the guitar at least, while other folkloric music that uses the same poetry understood that 5+7 = 12 and therefore the lyrics can be sandwiched into basic 6 metrics. (but again, if nobody cares to see my argument I will leave it there). Serrana Siguiriyas share in this poetic thing with some folkloric stuff. Oddly Tona martinete etc does NOT and should not really get lumped in with Siguiriyas family...(I believe it was el Bailarin that forced the 8 syllable Martinetes into the siguiriyas compas as the intro of his dance??)
So I know I am not crazy regarding the odd meter thing, as Gonzalo Grau, highly trained and respected classical and salsa musician in New York had notated some Cello music for siguiriyas/serranas etc. and did exactly as I explained above (for a dance show. Meaning there was no discussion that was simply his intuition). Odd meters are done that way. That is not really up for debate interms of drumming crowds, it is absolutely standard. Mainly it is because of DOWNBEAT expression.
But Romerito is right that it 'changed" or rather, some old timers seemed to lead in to the 6/8 bar when it was faster. (again, I can explain this via old proto flamenco scores). So sticking a bar line there is NOT WRONG. However, it gives a false sense of symmetry to the phrase needed for most applications. I hear the drone as Bb=7, and tonic A = 5. BUT when we consider something super simple like a llamada or falseta, even that line there between 7 and 5 is misleading and implies we could be "allowed" to break these modules when actually WE ARE NOT PERMITTED TO DO SO. At least according to historical practice.
So I agree with Erik's dad (assuming it is similar to mine). A long 6/4 bar can get the job done for drummers, flamencos, classical "bobos" alike. As long as we use special beaming, which is totally legit in classical music. So attached is how I envision it (this is my Guitar Pro Tab for Mel Bay Formative Works), this was BEFORE I was asked to conform to the previous author's books in the Mel Bay series. For practical modern flamenco standards this is THE WAY it should be done. However, being informed about the historical stuff I keep eluding to, I totally allow for the other versions cuz there are good reasons why it is "wrong", or coded wrong if you like, cuz we can trace it on paper.
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RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Ricardo)
I have some alegrias I did in 12 and in 6. Paco Pena notates his soleares in 12/4 in the Toques Flamencos.
In any case, the meter is never simply the barlines and time signature. Bach disproved that long ago. I don't like the 6 even with implied not groupings. Barlines are only for counting and memorizing and to give a general meter and rhythm for the music (for me...and I learned the traditional way, "Here, play this..."). I suppose no one really cares if they can get a feel for the music (implying that they have had enough instruction to interpret the different palos).
There is also the issue of instrumental vs cante notation. I agree with those authors who notate cante (por solea) with the hemiola intact but I switch to 3/4 whenever there is a strictly guitar thing because very often the harmonic rhythm is leading.
Aside from the Ocon, there are not many transcriptions I trust from ca. 1850 to 1880. Of those, I do not see so much an evolution as different authors' interpretation of how to notate. The discos de Pizarra, for me, demonstrate that flamenco was still evolving. I know you think it was established earlier, but I don't thinks so. Perhaps certain aspects had been conventionalized but overall there is still so much evolution happening within and after the early recordings.
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RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Romerito)
quote:
Paco Pena notates his soleares in 12/4 in the Toques Flamencos
This ignores the inherent symmetry, which is often exploited in various ways or simply forced via symmetry breaking (half compás expressions). Likely the transcriber was before Erik's dad, as this book came I the 70s I think. Whoever did that long bar was thinking about the Cante as the defining factor, ie., tercios define a single compas.
quote:
In any case, the meter is never simply the barlines and time signature. Bach disproved that long ago.
Not sure by what example of Bach, nor "The" meter, which one you mean. I guess you refer to when Bach would also sort of "break" symmetry by crossing phrases like a half compas? I would say sure, but he would also (as per his autographs) slice a bar in the middle at the end of the line....sort of demonstrating the thought process there ("I am using beat 3 as the downbeat in this section so that when it repeats it wraps around"...that type of thing). Not sure when the drumming thing got formalized but there is a simple math logic there, and to be frank, some of Bach's meter use is simply "wrong" as well....at least in this regard.
quote:
I don't like the 6 even with implied not groupings. Barlines are only for counting and memorizing and to give a general meter and rhythm for the music (for me...and I learned the traditional way, "Here, play this...")
Ironically I started with drums as a kid, switched to guitar and forgot everything. It was in college when I was lucky to hang with the 3 top drummers in the state (VA, Concert, Marching, some other ensemble champs) and realized the simplicity and universality of the concept. So I envision EVERY rhythmic sound as if it were to be on paper for those drummer guys, because when they look at drum score that is written, they assume it is not only "correct" but they express exactly what is meant to be felt in the moment reading it. I watch them do this in real time at it got me thinking that most musicians allow WAY too much nuance in interpretation with various scores and transcriptions.
This is why, when I saw Gonzalo's siguiriyas I realized, "oh, yes he was trained in school with drummers...there really is just this one or two ways to express this thing". Like you can split a 4/4 bar into 2/4 and these drummers will admit very little is different...but if we really want to get it right it is good to focus on it IMO. That is why I eventually did away with the 7/8 and 5/8, which is fine for reading, but it is not really the bigger picture. It is really the 6/4 that capture the correct symmetry etc. My version is the same as Herrero (that you like), minus the dotted lines. I guess that is the only reason you don't like it? (notice there is no dotted line between counts 3 and 4 but should have one, or else this just adds confusion to people that already understand meter well).
And the cante is another story. When they are both together there is the guitar which MUST be taken as the "box" such that the melody fits in the box or it does not. Like Carol Whitney did it is correct. She added compas modules rather than bar lines, which is like double bar lines if you want, an added dimension that helps the concept get across. And we see Talega ignoring these modules so every thing is well understood regarding the elasticity etc. The interpretation of a score is up to the individual's knowledge. I do feel there can be different ways to do this thing, but justifying any specific way leaves out some nuance of some sort.
quote:
Aside from the Ocon, there are not many transcriptions I trust from ca. 1850 to 1880. Of those, I do not see so much an evolution as different authors' interpretation of how to notate.
Well, the thing is, in the case of "academic music" where some things are "composed", we catch a glimpse into the mind of the composer/transcriber etc. This is what I am talking about interns of evolution...the thought process on paper. We can take clues from these sources, knowing that they are not affecting the folk art. IN other words I am certain that no modern flamenco transcriptions such as Faucher, despite popularity, have affected the actual MUSIC of flamenco, so we can use these as snapshots. Likewise a recording is only a "snap shot" not the the whole thing with all the nuance. These did however, affect the flamenco evolution later.
Anyway you say you don't see "much evolution" in the early scores...it is why I would need to walk you through it with case by case examples, such that we can parse out what it points to, what was possibly going on and what wasn't.
RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
I also advocate the 5 beat notation.
But 6/4 looks ok to me only when the 4th beat is a quarter note rest and that 16th note triplet grace notes glide into the 5th beat which is a 8th note triplet. Any thoughts on that?
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From: Washington DC
RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to devilhand)
quote:
Any thoughts on that?
if you mean measure 2, the Bb chord on count 3, then triplet 16ths moving to count 4 (A bass note)? If so, yes, reading a quarter note there then the "naked" 16ths might be misleading for some readers. In my mind the drummer guys are ok with it, but a way to clarify (which I will use on occasion) would be to not use a quarter note for that chord, but rather two 8th notes beamed together such that the chord is tied and the 16ths are beamed to the two 8th before it, therefore to the tied chord. This would be super clear and correct, however, I don't think it is super necessary in THIS case. If a student played this incorrectly somehow as a result of having the quarter note and naked (unbeamed) 16th triplets, then I would in fact get into the habit of using the tied chord with 3 beamed 8th notes keeping the group together.
Keep in mind, I have not yet had a problem with this, and also, if you use a basic 6/8 meter, it is NOT a requirement to always beam the 8ths with ties instead of using quarter notes. For example, swing is often written as a quarter and one 8th note continuously repeating. It is a reading convention all drummers (that read) have no issue with, and other musicians should get used to as well. That is precisely what is happening here, a type of "swing". Like wise in basic ternary meter (3/4) there is no reason to tie two quarters then have a 3rd in the bar. A half note and quarter note gets the idea clearly across, and is the exact same expression, but half speed to the 6/8 version. I think rhythm dog had this example.
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RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Romerito)
I was checking the Marin method where I knew he used 2/4+4/4 (basically the same as the 6/4 I was using), but most of his 4/4 bars are mathematically incorrect. Either the tuplet is wrong, or the dotted quarter is wrong. It is a mess. I think what he intended to capture is like my version bar 2..a normal quarter note, NOT a dotted one, with normal 8ths beamed in 3s. Look at his paseo section. If those 8ths are speed up to be a beat 3 triplet group, the math is correct, but that is NOT how anyone ever played siguiriyas. I am sure that that phrase would be "correct" if he removed the dot on the first quarter note. Sometimes after that there are triplets beamed and labeled, and the math works but again I don't think that was the intention either. Perhaps an editor tried to make sense of it by either adding the dots, or the tuplet groupings. Who knows, but it is a mess.
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RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Look at his paseo section. If those 8ths are speed up to be a beat 3 triplet group, the math is correct, but that is NOT how anyone ever played siguiriyas. I am sure that that phrase would be "correct" if he removed the dot on the first quarter note.
Yup, exactly. If you imagine a dot to make the beamed eights triplets, it becomes self-consistent, but wrong. If you remove the dot from the dotted bass note, it is both self-consistent and fits siguiriyas.
Also, agree that the 7/8 as 2-2-3 (3 pulses, the longer one is last) + 5/8 as 3-2 (2 pulses, longer one is first) fits the best in terms of trying to re-use already-known notation with its inherent assumption.
For others (you probably know this): these uneven meters are used a lot in Bulgarian folk music, and the 7/8 as 2-2-3 pulse configuration is very common (ръченица dance, except would be much faster tempo). The 5/8 is very common too except usually in the 2-3 pulse configuration rather than the first pulse being the longer one as above. The only notational 'novelty' here is the alternation of the two within the same piece, but there are no (or in any case, shouldn't be) new concepts for someone versed in standard notation being aware of uneven rhythms (i.e. for modern classical composers/academia).
The reason we need to specify the pulse configuration is because e.g. 7/8 can occur as a 2-2-3 division/pulsing, or 2-3-2, or 3-2-2 (all of these are used in folk compositions that are different to knowing ears, so just saying 7/8 is under-specifying.
For Bulgarian folk specifically, there is another assumption that pulses within any uneven meter would generally be either 2-long or 3-long (and only one 3-long pulse per bar) - not 1-long or 3+-long. So you can , for example, encounter 11/8 meter notation and would infer that there must be 5 pulses in some configuration, one of which (common) could be 2-2-3-2-2 (long pulse in the middle). As a consequence, we can conclude there is no existing Bulgarian uneven meter configuration that can be applied 1:1 for siguiriyas because the siguiriyas meter would have to have 2 long pulses per bar - and of course because a bar of it actually adds up to even number of eights - 12). Hence, writing it as alternating 7/8 + 5/8 in specific pulse configurations.
RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Ricardo)
The Marin was published in 1902 so the seguiriya that begins on beat 8 (on the compas clock; beat one in the five count) was already developed. Yet, that 6/8-3/4 siguiriya that is often associated as the "old" style and seems to have been best preserved in Jerez.
The Marin is not the earliest to notate it this way. There is a publication from earlier but I can't remember who it is. I'll have to go through my files. If I remember correctly it's between 1870 and 1885. I have to look that up too. But here it is.
The question I have (besides what members thinks about different ways of notating it) is how the siguiriya got from a hemiola 6/8-3/4 to the shifted 2/4-6/8-1/4. It is unlikely that the shifted compas would have developed independently. Not looking to answer that here. It is something I have been workin on, including transcribing ols recordings.
@Kitarist:
quote:
The reason we need to specify the pulse configuration is because e.g. 7/8 can occur as a 2-2-3 division/pulsing, or 2-3-2, or 3-2-2 (all of these are used in folk compositions that are different to knowing ears, so just saying 7/8 is under-specifying.
I personally don't like the idea of a 5/8 and 7/8 mixed meter because it ignores the hemiola 6/8-3/4 origin (if it indeed involved from that). THere is also the matter of hypermeter and harmonic rhythm that get left out in the discussions of metric structure. You see the harmonic rhythm happening in solea notation where it is all notated in 3/4 for instrumental music but might better be notated as two measures of 3/4 and three of 2/4 with the strong beats producing the hypermetric hemiola.
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That’s a rhythmic cell that can be expressed in straight 8th notes as a tactus. Why the big deal trying to make the thing fit when it doesn’t? It doesn’t need a time signature, it needs the performer to grasp the concept of a rhythmic cycle, and then the cycle can be subdivided to express whatever notes are being played as long as the beat is explained to the player as a 5 beat cycle with set time durations to each beat.
So instead of 3/4 + 6/8 divided into 1 & 2 & 3 & ( 3/4) + 1& 2& 3& 4& 5& 6& ( 6/8) just create a hybridized system where you count the 6/8 back half of the compas as 1& 2& 4& - 1& 2& 5& ?
Then you instruct the reader to use the first two sub beats as place holders and the 3rd 1/8 note as the accent. Then you arrive at a whole measure with a five beat straight tactus that can be notated with pitch indications normally, but with a compas structure that repeats as cycle. Within the cycle each beat has a duration value that can be broken into quarters, eighths, triplet 16th notes.
The thing is modern notation practice doesn’t have to be strictly normal, it czz as n hybridize.
The basic compas structure that makes up the building block rhythmic cell of Siguiriya has to be taught by rote, I think anyway, to be successful, so this recombinable compas cell should be taught separately from notation, even in a text book. It’s unrealistic to assume a guitarist who’s not working with a teacher who knows how the Siguiriya rhythmic/ chord patterns function to create the repeating compas would be able to really get that from straight off the page study. ( well maybe someone who was studying the left hand movements on video) - The nature of this palo is that the rhythmic motion and recycling compas has to be mastered reasonably well before a student could interpret a written out notated text, so why pretend otherwise?
Then there’s the matter of elasticity in the Siguiriya compas, what do you writer to indicate it? Molto Rubato? 😆
It seems like Siguiriya warrants its own specialized system of notation which stresses a pre understood rhythmic cell structure. Rhythmic cell as individual measure, with the understanding that there is elasticity in some sections.
RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Romerito)
My view is that we should stop seeing this a a notation dilemma and forego the situation of assigning it a time signature or screwing around with compound meters in a measure or measure to measure time signature changes. F&ck all that nonsense, drop the time signature and start over. View the compas not as a ‘pulse’ but as Tactus as in the tactus becomes a single measure which is an accented rhythmic cell. Then establish the duration between the accents ( I suggest straight 8th notes) and teach the palo as a cycle of accented rhythmic cells based on 8th note durations and notate pitch classes normally.
F&ck all the hemiola preserving gyrations and simply teach it as tactus, which is the renaissance word in Latin for what we call flamenco compas today.
Need me to solve any other problems? I’d be happy to, just drop some tips into my PayPal account or give me your credit card number, and no, sorry I do not have an Only Fans account and I will not write these posts whilst showing my tits.
RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Romerito)
That's exactly how my father solved the problem. He just used the 5 beat rhitmic pulse of seguiriyas and didn't add a time signature but instead wrote seg (seguiriyas) requiring the interpreter to be familiar with the Compas of seguiriyas. If not that has to be dealth with on forehand.
Fun fact. My father's 1400 handwritten pages of essential flamenco only included a handful of complete pieces, most are just carefully selected Compasvariations, falsetas and other ingredients needed learn the different styles and to shape a solo. But a few times only 1 usable example was existing at the time in which case he just included it as a whole (like peteneras, verdiales).
I used to combine material from his books with material I earplayed or created myself and for similar reasons (no other examples available) learned only that handful of pieces as a whole from his writings. Despite being a poor reader (I had to spell it out note by note) learning/memorizing a complete piece from his writings normally would take me about 3 hours (after which the real work would start of learning how to play it decently which would take me days or weeks).
But like I said, despite being a poor reader I generally needed only 3 hours to learn/memorize a complete (+10 pages) piece from paper. But when I started to learn serranas I already needed 3 hours to work out the first page alone because the longer beats 3 and 4 really turned out to be a challenge. Not in the sence of Compas understanding (I already played seguiriyas which actualy was the first piece ever I could play halfway decent) but because the variations/visuals of these longer beats turned out to be quite chalanging. In normal (quarter) beats you have a standard time span and you're familiar with the rhitmic variations that comes with it. But with these longer beats one clearly leaves known territory and new patterns/visuals pop up. It was quite a puzzle/chalange in the beginning and as a result I needed as much time for the first page as i'dd normally needed to work out a compete piece but once I had a hang of it I processed the remaining 10+ pages in 2 hours.
I'm not able to share my father's handwriting because if I make/add a photo it will be refused for being to big to process.
Paco Serrano who had private lessons in the art of writing flameco from my father for various years adapted my father's system in his lesson book including adding "seguiriyas" rather than a time signature.
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RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to kitarist)
quote:
As a consequence, we can conclude there is no existing Bulgarian uneven meter configuration that can be applied 1:1 for siguiriyas because the siguiriyas meter would have to have 2 long pulses per bar - and of course because a bar of it actually adds up to even number of eights - 12). Hence, writing it as alternating 7/8 + 5/8 in specific pulse configurations.
I wonder, do they ever use written notation or is it also oral tradition like flamenco? Second question, what is the poetic meter of this music when it is sung?
What I have been hinting at in this thread is that there is a likely logical historical basis for both the compás as we do it today, and the confusion over the better way to notate it. I would have to walk everybody through the history using old scores, and at the end the point would be to arrive at a clear way to express this music, or think about it, in modern context. Romerito has a point regarding the "shift" or change in the expression historically as born out by Diego del Morao deliberately resurrecting an older system, as per his contact with old jerezanos.
As you can see below, the downbeat of the typical 7/8 is obscured at this tempo, and the down beat of the 5/8 now feels more like a syncopated accent. This is all for good historical reason. Basically you can play sevillanas basic compás and it fits the thing he does with Jose merce below:
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RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Romerito)
quote:
The Marin was published in 1902 so the seguiriya that begins on beat 8 (on the compas clock; beat one in the five count) was already developed. Yet, that 6/8-3/4 siguiriya that is often associated as the "old" style and seems to have been best preserved in Jerez.
I feel this count 8 of a solea cycle to be super misleading, and have never found a practical way that this concept would help in context of actual flamenco. I feel it is an over simplification for some beginners that look at compas cycles as daunting, having learned but one special one already. Likewise mapping the 12 count to fandango is equally misleading. I am curious when this first appeared in literature or practice of teaching the compas? I recall the "clock" thing first came with Graf Martinez I thought?
Also, just because people in Jerez emphasize this thing (see my video above), does not mean it had something to do with that town. Just like "Jerez toque" that is synonymous with MORAITO is super wrong and misleading. We could say EVERYTHING about flamenco has been "well preserved" in Jerez.
quote:
The Marin is not the earliest to notate it this way. There is a publication from earlier but I can't remember who it is. I'll have to go through my files. If I remember correctly it's between 1870 and 1885. I have to look that up too. But here it is.
Thanks, if you have a source for that little clip please share. It is also "wrong" unless one interprets the 5/4 phrase as having tempo that slows down in the middle (which I actually suspect is happening subjectively to the transcriber there). Marin is super inconsistent so I think it is just editorial error or his own error (editor attempting to rectify the inconsistencies). Anyway, both are dead wrong anyway you look at it.
quote:
The question I have (besides what members thinks about different ways of notating it) is how the siguiriya got from a hemiola 6/8-3/4 to the shifted 2/4-6/8-1/4. It is unlikely that the shifted compas would have developed independently. Not looking to answer that here. It is something I have been workin on, including transcribing ols recordings.
Like I have been saying, I would like to walk you through it with scores in historical sequence. Bottom line, is it is Sevillanas, both metaphorically and literally. Kind of funny but there is a basis.
quote:
I personally don't like the idea of a 5/8 and 7/8 mixed meter because it ignores the hemiola 6/8-3/4 origin (if it indeed involved from that). THere is also the matter of hypermeter and harmonic rhythm that get left out in the discussions of metric structure. You see the harmonic rhythm happening in solea notation where it is all notated in 3/4 for instrumental music but might better be notated as two measures of 3/4 and three of 2/4 with the strong beats producing the hypermetric hemiola.
Right. Well the Guajiras in Marin is equally erroneous because the hemiola is NOT represented correctly via shifting 3/4 and 6/8. The reason is TEMPO. What they ACTUALLY want to express is that when you change meter the tempo of the EIGHTH notes remain CONSTANT, and if you don't specify this somehow it is simply incorrect. We as reading guitar players have grown accustom to this WRONG notation and take it for granted. (think about old baroque hemiola which was not using such alternating meters but perfectly clear in its own context). A straight 3/4 would be more correct, hence, whichever way you might notate a SEVILLANAS is how the siguiriyas should also be written, for historical reasons.
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RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Why can’t a new way of notating it be established? What’s keeping the notation within the bounds tradition?
I appreciate the sentiment. I used to advocate NOT using scores at all to learn, but learn "the flamenco way". So it goes without saying in this thread that even Romerito would advocate this. So we are moving to the next level or concept here. A transcription is a TRANSLATION of concept. I would say, in fact, most flamenco score have a "Rosetta Stone" at the front such that readers with "normal" training can adjust to whatever the specifics of THIS book are going to be. A key, like on a map as to what the colors and lines MEAN.
So with this topic we have moved past that. The thing you advocate is basically what I was saying with a 6/4. I don't see a reason to invent something brand new when there actually exists a MORE legitimate translation of the concept as I described earlier.
Interms of the sentiment of "what is history good for" like why the hemiola matters etc., that goes back again to "we are moving past the impracticality of it". Romerito has a good point when you consider the "resurrection" of the past Diego del Morao has introduced (see the video a few posts above). This means that we have to consider siguiriyas as bigger than just what we play in a beginner dance class. Especially since I am claiming there is a legitimate historical basis for what Diego is doing, and I feel it benefits EVERYBODY to understand it.
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RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Erik van Goch)
quote:
Paco Serrano who had private lessons in the art of writing flameco from my father for various years adapted my father's system in his lesson book including adding "seguiriyas" rather than a time signature.
Thank you for sharing!
The fact that your dad did not specifically WRITE a time signature does not change the reality that he wrote it in 6/4 meter, exactly as I have done and advocated for earlier. I can pretend that by changing the beaming that I have invented my own way, in fact reinventing the way your dad and probably others envisioned it long before me....but it is a FACT it is basically 6/4. I don't care if people are not used to it in general, or classical guitar, but it is simply what it is. An 11 year old drummer student in marching band would see it the same way, it is quite universal. It simply means that the quarter note GENERALLY gets the beat, and there are 6 of them in a bar.
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RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Erik van Goch)
Erick I really enjoyed reading the posts about your father. My first teacher told me sig was in 12. Sometime after that someone told me the Gitano way to count it was five beats. At the time I thought that was a simplified, or quaint version of the way it was supposed to be, but last Oct in class Paco Serrano said it was five beats. I think five beats is the best way to explain it to someone who doesn't already know the compas. As far as what is written, as Ricardo wrote, we deal with whatever way the transcription is written.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch
That's exactly how my father solved the problem. He just used the 5 beat rhitmic pulse of seguiriyas and didn't add a time signature but instead wrote seg (seguiriyas) requiring the interpreter to be familiar with the Compas of seguiriyas. If not that has to be dealth with on forehand.
Fun fact. My father's 1400 handwritten pages of essential flamenco only included a handful of complete pieces, most are just carefully selected Compasvariations, falsetas and other ingredients needed learn the different styles and to shape a solo. But a few times only 1 usable example was existing at the time in which case he just included it as a whole (like peteneras, verdiales).
I used to combine material from his books with material I earplayed or created myself and for similar reasons (no other examples available) learned only that handful of pieces as a whole from his writings. Despite being a poor reader (I had to spell it out note by note) learning/memorizing a complete piece from his writings normally would take me about 3 hours (after which the real work would start of learning how to play it decently which would take me days or weeks).
But like I said, despite being a poor reader I generally needed only 3 hours to learn/memorize a complete (+10 pages) piece from paper. But when I started to learn serranas I already needed 3 hours to work out the first page alone because the longer beats 3 and 4 really turned out to be a challenge. Not in the sence of Compas understanding (I already played seguiriyas which actualy was the first piece ever I could play halfway decent) but because the variations/visuals of these longer beats turned out to be quite chalanging. In normal (quarter) beats you have a standard time span and you're familiar with the rhitmic variations that comes with it. But with these longer beats one clearly leaves known territory and new patterns/visuals pop up. It was quite a puzzle/chalange in the beginning and as a result I needed as much time for the first page as i'dd normally needed to work out a compete piece but once I had a hang of it I processed the remaining 10+ pages in 2 hours.
I'm not able to share my father's handwriting because if I make/add a photo it will be refused for being to big to process.
Paco Serrano who had private lessons in the art of writing flameco from my father for various years adapted my father's system in his lesson book including adding "seguiriyas" rather than a time signature.
RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Ricardo)
That's because it is not 7/8-5/8. This is a hypermetric hemiola. All seguidillas, including seguidillas gitanas, siguiriyas de sentimiento, sevillanas, etc., were ternary and the phrasing often stretched over two measures; the second group of two ternary measures were bifurcated (a true hemiola), and eventually, in order to accompany the cante, cierres were invented that closed. There is a reason that the Pirinaca and de la Perlas' "model" is called primitive. Because it was first, and then evolved to the 2/4-6/8-1/4 model primarily used today.
quote:
Thanks, if you have a source for that little clip please share. It is also "wrong" unless one interprets the 5/4 phrase as having tempo that slows down in the middle (which I actually suspect is happening subjectively to the transcriber there). Marin is super inconsistent so I think it is just editorial error or his own error (editor attempting to rectify the inconsistencies). Anyway, both are dead wrong anyway you look at it.
Wrong? Sure, but they seem to be wanting to capture the 6/8 bookended by the 2/4 and 1/4. The version I gave could be compared with any early siguiriya by the "pillars" and it would hold up. Play those triplets as beamed duplet eights grouped in threes and you have the actual compas of flamenco.
Sorry Ricardo. That file is buried in a bunch of unlabeled files that I have to go through. I'll try to get to that this weekend.
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RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Romerito)
quote:
That's because it is not 7/8-5/8.
Well, the poetic meter IS in fact, and hence the melodies are tied to that. Ocón does not have siguiriyas but this melody of nana has commonality. And you can see the "libre" concept of the poetic meter clearly as 7 and 5 with double barlines between tercios (see attached file). That type of free melody floats on top of the compás of the guitar in both the normal versions and Diego's 'primitivo' version. The guitar is basically an ostinato of the 7+5 phrasing underneath, regardless how a cantaor fits the letra. When we do it for Baile it becomes more measured, but even here I am always playing a game of "make it fit" such that for group choreography we always have to do a rewind and try again when we use different singers. But you know this already right?
quote:
All seguidillas, including seguidillas gitanas, siguiriyas de sentimiento, sevillanas, etc., were ternary and the phrasing often stretched over two measures; the second group of two ternary measures were bifurcated (a true hemiola), and eventually, in order to accompany the cante, cierres were invented that closed.
Right, well they squeeze these 7+5 lyrics into musical danceable melodies, usually covering 4 bars not 2, but yes we see a pattern develop in only two bars. But for Sevillanas it is like Fandango de Huelva, NOT like abandolao. And the bifurcations are basically MISS represented by 6/8 intrusions. Again, no small thing the 8th note remains constant. Please note the Castro Buendia piece in the dissertation where he imposes the 3/4 to some piano piece that shows the hemiola in 6/8 constant (p. 948 of appendix, or page two thousand three hundred of the entire document LOL!!!). And that is in the appendix section of Seguiriyas. And speaking of which I found your 5/4 piece which I was right about, he wants you to slow down those triplets. It is like a super romanticized impressionistic thing inspired by the flamenco version. Please note the "amalgam of 3/4 and 2/4" he is splitting the 7 and 5 8th notes in a single bar. If you don't slow down then it is 6/4 as I said earlier:
So to conclude...the sevillanas works as compas for that fast siguiryas, because Pirinaca is not really singing to that compas, her melody is the normal slow one, so it is like pointing to a likely old tradition where, in midst of the typical folkloric repertoire, those dancing gitanas would toss in to the mix a slow proper siguiriyas, and so the people that observed this (like how estebañez Calderon asks these questions, why is the familiar thing different here?), they differentiate the exotic Phrygian melody mixed up with the happy folkloric stuff. (umm, well, this is seguidilla "Gitana" then.) And today you can hear the traces of the heavy cantes in the sevillanas but it does not affect the compas or the dance. Academic music scores only hint at the modal changes. In other words those Phrygian melodies in Sevillianas are analogous to the old siguiriyas sneaking into the folkloric SEGUIDILLAS. Meanwhile, at home behind closed doors they would do "normal" slow versions, and THAT is why Mairena was correct, and we have so many darn palos with overlapping names. So I am saying the public spectacle warranted a fast version that fit in with the folkloric stuff. That is why you see the complaint about the gritando singing etc., in seguidillas by that guy in 1799 (Preciso).
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RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Romerito)
Mark, in his musical memoires my father said then when it comes to flamenco non Spaniards have to get writh of their non Spanish way of thinking fallowed by "as long as you think seguiriyas as 12 beats you will never be able to play it correctly, seguiriyas has 5 beats". Another example he mentioned was how difficult it was for him to grasp Sevillanas while little children at Paco's patio had no problem at all understanding it.
What amazed me was that when flamenco was first lectured at Rotterdam Conservatory the classical based teachers of music theory and music history were not able to feel the E chord as the closing chord of Soleares because to their ears (dispite having lectured the old church modi among which the Phrigyan mode for decades) it should be closed with a Am chord (in the same way we end granainas with an E chord). The fandangos chord scedual E>E>Am was another challange because the non Spanish mind tended to interpret E>Am as V>I and consequently expected the Am chord to be the strong beat rather than beat 3 :-).
If I'm not mistaken (but I might be wrong) for Paco Peña the compas of Bulerias starts on beat 1 even in situations where the melody starts at 12 (where I tend to go with the flow).
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RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
Why can’t a new way of notating it be established? What’s keeping the notation within the bounds tradition?
I appreciate the sentiment. I used to advocate NOT using scores at all to learn, but learn "the flamenco way". So it goes without saying in this thread that even Romerito would advocate this. So we are moving to the next level or concept here. A transcription is a TRANSLATION of concept. I would say, in fact, most flamenco score have a "Rosetta Stone" at the front such that readers with "normal" training can adjust to whatever the specifics of THIS book are going to be. A key, like on a map as to what the colors and lines MEAN.
So with this topic we have moved past that. The thing you advocate is basically what I was saying with a 6/4. I don't see a reason to invent something brand new when there actually exists a MORE legitimate translation of the concept as I described earlier.
Interms of the sentiment of "what is history good for" like why the hemiola matters etc., that goes back again to "we are moving past the impracticality of it". Romerito has a good point when you consider the "resurrection" of the past Diego del Morao has introduced (see the video a few posts above). This means that we have to consider siguiriyas as bigger than just what we play in a beginner dance class. Especially since I am claiming there is a legitimate historical basis for what Diego is doing, and I feel it benefits EVERYBODY to understand it.
I’m not seeing any of this as ‘next level’ but as over complicating something that’s already settled. It’s like American guitar makers who think the Spanish version of guitar structure is flawed and open to reinterpretation and ‘improvement’. Then they create features that end up eventually being dropped out of fashion, because they learn how to do it the Spanish way eventually.
I learned Siguiriya compas from one on one lessons and from a couple of very high level dancers who thought I was good enough at the palo to accompany them. To me that’s where it’s at. It’s an interchangeable set of rhythmic cell combinations you hook together like a freight train engineer picking up and dropping off boxcars full of goods. The singer and dancer indicate which boxcars they need and you haul the train along. So for me it will always work that way and I view the metric notation as an esoteric intellectual game. Some of this stuff is getting so cerebral that is really just not interesting or moving. In Japan they call stuff like this ‘otaku’ nerdy, it can have a positive or a negative implication, depending on your preferences within the subject.
A lot of the contemporary takes on Siguiriya are really uninteresting to me, particularly the ones in weird lower extended altered tunings. And in a time when the average American or European guitarist can’t sing….
But you guys are the teachers so you know better 😝 I’m just a dumb schlub who lives in the Cretaceous period.
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RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Romerito)
The point of any transcription is the same as face-to-face lessons. Some people here on the foro don't have the luxury of going to Spain. They have consumed what ever is on the market. This is especially useful if they already have (had) a teacher and use printed material to augment their repertoire. I personally studied with two masters who became expatriates and lived in New Mexico. You have a few like Jose de la Paz (who recently passed QDeP), but, that is not the norm. And where does anyone think that elastic compas came from? It came from the more structured versions used in dance. I understand that many people view it backwards - the elastic compas was forced into dance. I find that unlikely for historical and cultural evolutionary reasons.
quote:
I’m not seeing any of this as ‘next level’ but as over complicating something that’s already settled.
Who settled it? I am not seeing your conclusion here. Is Herrero or Granados, or Martin, or Faucher, or Worms or Pena the better way of notating?
My wife is Japanese (Fukuoka, best Tonkotsu Ramen) so I have heard Otaku used in both ways. Oops, off to work.
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RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Romerito)
quote:
And where does anyone think that elastic compas came from? It came from the more structured versions used in dance. I understand that many people view it backwards - the elastic compas was forced into dance. I find that unlikely for historical and cultural evolutionary reasons.
For the record, my view has evolved or changed such that I admit first there was "form" if you want, like a loose rhythmic concept such that one line of verse= one compas (from the vantage point of singing) and the music that accompanies that had to align precisely with it. Later it goes through a process of not only elastic tempo but I would claim total decoupling from compas altogether. The main body of flamenco history we have to deal with is loose compas and freely sung but SET IN STONE melodies, that ride on compas mattresses. And then the baile REESTABLISHES the strict adherence to line and verse compas alignment in recent times, and perhaps the metronomic concept (though we know Paco having visited Brazil recognized the importance of melody being more strict and metronomic as a kid, and inspired the next gen guitar players to express contra Tiempo like the voice enjoyed, from a metronomic view point). Singers have adapted, as well as guitarists, all along the way of history based on trends and what is required professionally.
Also I agree Estebanana is complaining (preaching to the choir) and call us nerdy for no good reasons, and evoking Japanese put downs. Sepuku can be the only option.
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