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RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Ricardo)
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ORIGINAL: Ricardo
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I see, I think, what Ricardo is saying.
to be clear what I am demonstrating earlier is that those specific phrasings help to connect our view of siguiriyas TODAY, with how it USED to be "seguidilla sevillana" in the early/mid 18th century, and the "seguidilla gitana", and expressed by Piriñaca as an antiquated cante minus guitar (since all guitar players were playing siguiriyas slow, and sevillanas and fandango are different form). Relative to her own palmas she feels the downbeat like we feel fandango or sevillanas, but normally the singing doesn't fit there, they sing off of count 5. She is pointing to the older tradtion (I assume) long extinct when they like sang siguiriyas amongst a selection of seguidillas. The sevillanas we do today hints at the old practice via the phrygian themes mixing with normal major and minor.
Diego himself just wanted to express siguiryas as fast as she was doing palmas...and the result magically sounds like sevillanas bass compas. I am just thinking he reinvented the wheel right there...but this explains Romerito's question as to how/why the expression changed. It simply slowed WAY down and the feeling morphed. Not unlike buleria and solea super lento that are related.
I can’t remember the recording, but David Serva had me and his buddy Pablo listen to a fast Siguiriya one night in an old record he found. It was not Piriñaca, but a male singer and the singer was singing normally, but both singer and guitarist were marking the time and playing the cycle of D C Bflat A chords like double speed it seemed, but somehow it all lined up.
Yes was trying to follow this. I see how it could have happened.
Separate idea- Do you also see a relationship between SPB and Siguiriya where in baile accompaniment Siguiriya can be interpolated into SPB and back?
RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to estebanana)
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ORIGINAL: estebanana
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ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch
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ORIGINAL: estebanana
When I first entered the Foro in 2012 I immediately ended up having a dispute with Ricardo about how to count seguiriyas. It was an already existing debat of how to count it and if I remember well Ricardo embraced thinking it in 12 beats were I advocated it was 5 beats claiming it would be wrong to think of it as a 12 beat circle starting on 8 (which resembles above setup). ..
{8-10-12--3--6-}
If I remember well Ricardo's respons was that I was totally wrong picturing the 12 beat approach as being a (Bulerias) cycle starting at beat 8 (although many saw it that way) adding the correct way was to think of it as....
{1-3-5--8--11-}
But that's how I remember my first encounter with Ricardo from over 12 years ago so I might be wrong :-).
Fact is above subject isn't new but probably as old as seguiriyas itself :-).
PS, your 6th beat seems to be the 5 AND part so the AND preceding the next cycle which is ok as an inner feld tool to keep track. In the beginning I often added suportive beats to all 5 beats to keep track like 1 and 2 and 3 and a 4 and a 5 and..... so 12 beats after all? :-).
Well no because the difference between feeling every beat in Bulerias inbetween the pulse 3,6,8,10,12 and adding some suportive beats in seguiriyas like 1-2-3--4--5- is that in Bulerias they are the actual beats while in seguiriyas these supportive "extra beats" are not.
12-1-2-/3-4-5-/6-7-/8-9/10-11- etc versus 1 and 2 and 3 and a 4 and a 5 and.
When practicing/studying soleares or Bulerias slowly I often added suportive "beats" like that as wel...
1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and 7 etc.
One of my former classmates even had the habit of tapping the beat with one foot and tapping the in between AND part with his other foot making sure every note was in it's place.
To be honest this chart thing might be totally off. But here’s how I arrived at it, listening to guitar teachers dancers and singers doing nudos on a table top. And David Serva and Keni Parker tapping knuckles on a table of bar. And I heard five accents locked into 6 beats. My way might not make sense, but for some reason Jason McGuire and others around town says my Siguiriya grove was good.
Right now I’m trying to wrap my head around Sevillanas and Siguiriya similarity. I was thinking about for a bit tonight and I think I can put it together. I have to practice it a bit. I see, I think, what Ricardo is saying.
That's what counts (having a good groove). One of the best (loved) accompanying players over here in the late 80ties (participating in tons of dance lessons/performances) was unable to tap Sevillanas in a 3 beat pulse with taps on 1,4, etc. Instead he felt and taped in a pulse of 2. My father concidered that (feeling a pulse in 2 rather than a pulse in 3) to be incorrect but wisely did not interfer/mesh with that old habit, especially since all involved were extremely pleased with him. As a matter of fact he was the most popular accompanying player around and whenever Spanish artists came over to do masterclases or performances and were in need of a local to assist/join them he was their first choice. I learned a lot from him.
I once made a study of how various artists tapped their feet with Bulerias. Paco de Lucia has his known heartbeat of tapping 1/2-4/5-7/8-10/11- which he varies with 12--3--6--9-- (a pulse in 3). Moraito on the other hand quite often had a continuing pulse in 2 (12-2-4/6-8-10). Bulerias melodies can follow a pulse in 2 or 3 over a longer periods of time. I tend to go with the flow, varying between Paco and Moraito just to my likings. Moraito on the other hand quite often sticks to tapping a pulse in 2 even when the melody has a pulse in 3.
I obviously also watched how he taps seguiriyas and quite often he stopped tapping at all or at seemingly random places especially at moments his Compas becomes less clear. So I guess that when Moraito played seguiriyas at least parts of the underlying Compas was un(a)counted for but again nobody seemed to mind.
He once showed us a seguiriyas falseta in a masterclass that was verry dear to him. He learned it as a kit from the only guitar teacher around and multiple generations grew up with it. We (students and teachers of the Rotterdam Conservatory and verry familiar with seguiriyas) were not able to folow the Compas of that falseta. So we asked him to count it out for us or to tap his foot on the beats. He wasn't able to do so. So next we provided the pulse of seguiriyas by means of palmas and asked him to drop/play his falseta on top of that Compas. He was unable to do so and after various failed attempts he concluded (with us) it was out of Compas. Since I hated the idea we had spoiled his beloved treasure I spend a lot of time figuring out what the original idea behind that falseta could have been and came up with a version that was in Compas and had quite a challanging/subtle rhythm that over time could easily be misunderstood/misinterpret leading to the variation Moraito played us.
I felt verry blessed I was able to meet him that way since he was and is one of my all time favorite players. I still regret that when he played us a variation on one of his well known Bulerias fasetas I didn't say "Ole Vicente" because the variation was clearly inspired by Vicente. As it turned out it actually was Vicente himself who came up with that variation which Moraito liked so much he adapted it himself.
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RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
Separate idea- Do you also see a relationship between SPB and Siguiriya where in baile accompaniment Siguiriya can be interpolated into SPB and back?
yes of course. but it is a tricky or dangerous thing to do, and I don't really recommend messing with it until everyone is very solid with the normal expressions. Paco did exactly this in his pot pourri bridging siguiriyas "Luzia" into solxbul for farru. It all hinged on a specific chord move he does at the conclusion of the sung estribillo. Here at 30:06...on the second compas of the singing, the last accent (count 5), instead count that as 6-7-8-9-10. or this:
1 and 2 and 3 and ah 4 and ah / 6-7-8-9-10 etc. same speed:
Posts: 15641
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From: Washington DC
RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Erik van Goch)
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Since I hated the idea we had spoiled his beloved treasure I spend a lot of time figuring out what the original idea behind that falseta could have been and came up with a version that was in Compas and had quite a challanging/subtle rhythm that over time could easily be misunderstood/misinterpret leading to the variation Moraito played us.
Manuel Morao plays this wildly fast, or rushed, seemingly out of compás when executed normally. I provided this in the Mel Bay formative Works book and tried to play it abnormally "in compás" for students learning from this. If the thing you described is not this exact phrase, I have heard some others like this with the same issue.
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RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Ricardo)
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ORIGINAL: Ricardo
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Since I hated the idea we had spoiled his beloved treasure I spend a lot of time figuring out what the original idea behind that falseta could have been and came up with a version that was in Compas and had quite a challanging/subtle rhythm that over time could easily be misunderstood/misinterpret leading to the variation Moraito played us.
Manuel Morao plays this wildly fast, or rushed, seemingly out of compás when executed normally. I provided this in the Mel Bay formative Works book and tried to play it abnormally "in compás" for students learning from this. If the thing you described is not this exact phrase, I have heard some others like this with the same issue.
No it isn't. I just found it on YouTube. Not sure he played it exactly like that in my presence (other masterclass) but it's the one.
But the FUN is in this recording he actualy seems to play it in a straight 6/4 time signature with 6 totaly even beats. And that seems to be the case for various other variations he plays in this seguiriyas. He is indeed quite an emotional player who can rush and skip various beats in a row. As an experienced player every now and then I recognize parts that I can pin on certain beats (in the same way others wil recognize the 10,11,12 part of soleares) but as a whole (as usual with Moraito) the enclosed seguiriyas is verry difficult to folow. I most certainly wouldn't encourage my students learning seguiriyas to listen to it first hand, it needs indeed a lot of guidance.
As said earlier I notished that in his more emotional moments not all is acounted for compaswise and that those moment often match moments were he stops tapping his feet or does it seemingly random. Live on stage falow artists adding support sometimes temporary seemed to get lost to if he had his moments. But wel, it's Moraito so who cares, he's the cherish on the pie.
He don't seem to be happy in enclosed video but it includes the falseta I mentioned. It's the one he learned as a kid from the only guitar teacher around who teached it to every guitar aspiring kid around so I guess at least one generation grew up with it.
In light of previous discussions I found it verry funny he seems to play it in a circle of 6 even beats (6/4) and that other parts of this seguiriyas seem to do so as well.
RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Ricardo)
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ORIGINAL: Ricardo
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I haven't been able to grasp your comparisment with parts of Sevillanas yet.
ok, it is a bit counter intuitive. If you understand Sevillanas and Fandango have guitar/compas relationship, it should be easy to see clearly with these examples:
basic sevillanas/fandango pattern at 2:36:
So how that maps to siguiryas counts, is in the middle of your dad's score, the third beat grouping or count 3 accent is the E chord. The moment I change chords to A minor (I change to Am BETWEEN beats 2 and 3 in anticipation of the rasgueado that accents the third beat), is the count 4 accent (the start of your dad's 4th beat grouping).
That "syncopation" in the otherwise 3/4 meter, changing chords on the weak spot between beat 2 and 3, is the REASON modern transcribers want to switch to a 6/8 metric, such that the 4th 8th note gets a BEAT expression on that spot. The rasgueado I am doing would not look nice in that meter, hence we normally don't need to change meter for Fandango/sevillanas. Simply put, the two glopes are count 3 and 5 of siguiriyas respectively.
So assuming you got that, you can count to 6 with this phrasing since the "accent" is beat two of the next measure, as expressed by the ragueado again. So now we have 5th beat accent that is important. That accent is where, in sevillanas, the dancers begin moving their bodies (4&ah-5, in other words, as they hear that melody conclude). That starting place is exactly the "5&ah-1" counts of siguiriyas.
Shifting to fandango, which has the same metric as sevillanas, we see two halves expressed by the descending cadence Am-Am-G-F-E, from that spot we left off, or 5,6, 1,2,3...then a remate on the E chord and the cycle begins again. Sevillanas is like doing only the first half over and over. If you transpose to por medio, then that descent is Dm-Dm-C-Bb-A. However, it is typical to lead into the cante with Dm-C-Gm-(Gm)-A, instead. That right there maps exactly to the siguiriyas, with the only difference being the A chord comes half a beat earlier in siguiriyas, as I explained earlier (between beats 2 and 3 again suggesting the 6/8). See at 1:10, 2:02, 2:23, 3:48:
I have to dig into that more deeply. I fell asleep in front of the tele and found myself back in a state of halfsleep juggling with the (partial) similarities between fandangos and serranas (same key) mixing them together in a Jerai kind of way :-).
It sure is an interesting view worth looking into it. When my father as a partial outsider became a student at Rotterdam Conservatory his teacher of music history gave a lecture on I think some tonality evolution isues (not sure). Anyhow my father raised his hand stating that in his opinion things evolved in a way more natural/simple way. The teacher asked him to explain his theory and when he did he was the laugh of the class. His teacher on the other hand stated "look, this is the kind of students we are looking for". He not only embraced my father's theory but began to advocate it in his later lessons. In the same way one of my father's flamenco students pointed him into the right direction to grasp the structure of sevillanas.
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The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.
I often felt this sounded more "baroque classical" than flamenco, and assumed it was borrowed from some famous classical piano theme or something, and force fit to the siguiriya compás. Never came across anything specific however.
Also please notice Moraito's version ends with exactly the thing I showed earlier at 9:54 in your video, and was the part I considered less clear than the Molina part.
Posts: 15641
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to estebanana)
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
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ORIGINAL: Morante
So this is the video that’s the transcription test? If they can transcribe that Siguiriya they are real transcriber 😝
People like Melchor and Morao stretched the time quite liberally compared to others. Cepero being next gen, and Moraito (when not copying his uncle ), too, have a much more clear vision of compás phrasing IMO, and eventually became the pinnacle (IMO) of art of accompanying cante. They have opposing methods I feel, but both supreme (Moraito uses blue prints that work universally and Cepero treats each singer as if he was singing it himself). But things like that elastic spot in Cepero’s falseta at 4:19, you don’t see in the older generation.
I transcribed Morao siguiriyas and it was basically out of compás mathematically. I notice the same from Melchor Niño Ricardo and others. In lessons I inform a student and we decide whether to rectify it or not. Rectifying it makes it “useable” in most contexts IMO. But then there is honoring the original idea. Below is Morao as I got it from the video, and then I added a couple notes so it is in compás proper. (I also have a similar thing in the Mel Bay books I put out recently, if people want a score version).
RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
quote:
ORIGINAL: estebanana
quote:
ORIGINAL: Morante
So this is the video that’s the transcription test? If they can transcribe that Siguiriya they are real transcriber 😝
People like Melchor and Morao stretched the time quite liberally compared to others. Cepero being next gen, and Moraito (when not copying his uncle ), too, have a much more clear vision of compás phrasing IMO, and eventually became the pinnacle (IMO) of art of accompanying cante. They have opposing methods I feel, but both supreme (Moraito uses blue prints that work universally and Cepero treats each singer as if he was singing it himself).
RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to Ricardo)
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If you write 2/4 then specific triplets, the sound is the same as 6/8.
As we know time signature is a western music concept. Sometimes it's a mess. For example in 2/4 time you cannot divide the main beats in 3 micro beats because it's simple meter. You use 6/8 or 6/4 instead if you want 6 beats.
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The reality is 6/4 would have the snare on 2,4, and 6, just as a normal 4/4 has the snare on 2 and 4. It is NO MORE complex than that. Luckily there are SOME smart musicians that get the simplicity here. So I hope everybody watches and learns:
Looks like this guy talks about simple triple meter (2 times 3/4=6/4), which is false. According to theory, 6/4 is compound meter.
Posts: 15641
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Seguiriya /Siguiriya Metric Notation (in reply to devilhand)
so your main issue is not techniques, it basic rhythm understanding. I recommend a drum class. You have confused concepts across the board. If you want flamenco training, ignore scores and meters and learn intuitively with a teacher. At this point you have developed too much baggage that is just going to confuse you more. Like what you just said about 2/4, jeezus. Learn Tanguillo, but not from a score.
And for on topic, this above is exactly why I have historically been telling people to ignore the scores and learn the Spanish way.
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), too, have a much more clear vision of compás phrasing IMO, and eventually became the pinnacle (IMO) of art of accompanying cante. They have opposing methods I feel, but both supreme (Moraito uses blue prints that work universally and Cepero treats each singer as if he was singing it himself). But things like that elastic spot in Cepero’s falseta at 4:19, you don’t see in the older generation. 
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