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RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to silddx)
nowadays all the guitars (almost) have the same vibe for the "new" flamenco or not that tradicional , thats the trend for quite some time , if we listen to the arpeggios and falsetas , almost everybody sounds the same
i think the best is to have a standard one (comtemp. flamenco) and a peghead for more traditional
RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to silddx)
Luthiers down south charge a tidy hourly rate. I did the same job on a guitar last week. I've only used that method a few times now as there are other ways of doing things and it has to be economical for the instrument, but a vintage Conde all working well for just over a grand isn't bad.
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RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
quote:
i think the best is to have a standard one (comtemp. flamenco) and a peghead for more traditional
Peghead doesn't make a guitar to sound more traditional. It seems obvious to me that a guitar made by expert hands with quality wood sounds way better than a factory made guitar, either vintage or newly made. That difference is not immediately evident and sometimes it's not even perceived. The point is just to buy the best guitar according to your budget and your needs.
RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to Echi)
peghead has a very unique sound , maybe not suitable to all palos (maybe someone could go deeper on this) .
maybe this is a good example , contemp flamenco on a peghead , funny i was searching for this for quite sometime and now i easly found it (ant theres a lot) awesome playing by Antonio , but i dont enjoy that much the more metalic and buz on the contemp. flamenco, but sounds ok when mix modern flamenco with "toque de moron" (2nd video) i think theres no need to put another video of Antonio without a peghead , we all know how it sounds
the opposite
not so easy to find because everyone plays modern even with Palillos
Note: the less difference with or without palillos is noticeable with a Palillos negra (less bright and more warm), so the difference its more noticeable comparing Blancas
RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
I used to have a peghead JL Bellido. After a couple of years I eventually modified it to a slotted headstock with light Alessi tuners. Minimal if no difference in terms of tone and feeling. I also did the opposite job on a Conde, making a new headstock. Again, the owner said he didn’t appreciate any difference. The main point is the headstock weight, here. I suppose in lighter guitars you may notice more the effect of the thing.
RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
Why do you attribute the character of the guitar to the peghead and not to something else? I had the evidence that this feature is not relevant by trying the very guitars with and without the peghead. Alan Caruth - a luthier well into the physics of the guitar - made a point about the "neck vibrational mode", which - at certain frequencies - involves the neck oscillation. It's not that relevant, and yet in some circumstances a heavier or lighter neck/headstock do something. The lighter the guitar, the more you will notice the difference.
RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to Echi)
before i respond to that , please answer this , did you notice anthing different from those videos with the pegheads comparing with the non pegs ? did you notice any similiar between those pegheads?
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RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
Sorry but your subjective perception is biasing your ear. I am not going to go into the argument again about blindfold but you can’t base anything on these videos objectively sorry.
Here I am playing “modern” on Montoya’s 1923 peg head D. Esteso. It played just like any modern machine head Conde even if the neck design was drastically different.
RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
For sure there are differences but why should they be relatable to the peghead? I once made 2 flamenco guitars using tops from the same three (bought in Val di Femme) and using the same plan, but they did not sound the same. Years ago I went to Valencia, in the Sanchis company, and tried at least 6 1f extra guitars: same character but definitely not the same guitars. The moral of the story is that the only way to understand how much a certain feature is relevant is to measure the effects of it before and after the modification in the very same guitar. This is what I did and my opinion is that peghead is not that relevant.
That Esteso to my ears sounds more like the 1959 guitar of this post, as much as tube video can tell. Very clear and strong fundamental.
RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to Ricardo)
thats not possible Ricardo , im almost a virgin on this , so cant be biased . you played lovely....thanks for share , that kind of guitar doesnt handle so well modern stuff (my opinion) , more metallic sound , not so clean (excluding some lovely picado of yours) etc
can you guess , whos the guy that im thinkin that is an exception , and if i not see the video i would say "no way it isnt a peghead"
RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to Echi)
all have the same sound similarities , way more metallic sound , more risp or rasp (?) sound , more dirty , more vibration
i dont feel that its a coencidence , funny how that Ricardos guitar have those kind of sound similiraties with the ones that i posted that are all modern
RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to Firefrets)
quote:
Luthiers down south charge a tidy hourly rate. I did the same job on a guitar last week. I've only used that method a few times now as there are other ways of doing things and it has to be economical for the instrument, but a vintage Conde all working well for just over a grand isn't bad.
Lovely work, Firefrets.
I consider Stephen's hourly rate to be quite low actually. £250 for a full refret, fingerboard profiling, new saddle bone, repolishing fretboard sides, new Golpeadores, and a few other things was a lot less than I expected. I recently paid £120 in Richmond for five frets to be levelled, a recrown on all frets and full set up on a Strat. I thought that was quite expensive.
The Conde cost me £700 including the restoration which I think is a bargain.
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RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to silddx)
of course theres many other variables , try to see the correlations between the pegheads , i just puted many examples and i think their clear , you dont see any difference for other non pegs?
i can ear even the difference in the sound between peghead blanca and negra , and their similarities note: im far from gifted..
RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to silddx)
no , if i dont ear that way im not going to agree..., but i respect it.... its two different things even the natural tension its different
but i believe that with some setup it can be more close to palillos , like string tension , very low action (buzzing ou almost buzz a fret or two) combined with the playing style of the player , Diego Torres Amaya ( De Moron) for example.
RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to Ricardo)
first and third video are close , really close sometimes..
last video i think its noticeable that its dirty almost giving a sloppy sound (nothing about your playing that is excelent as usual) , see the bar chords and the single notes on the last video , not so clean .
if you can i can make a "blind" test , it would be a lot of fun.... eheh :) just give me the sounds , a pepsi challenge alike
RE: Can too much relief be altered d... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
The tube videos say too few really to be reliable. The sound is compressed, you miss the overtones, you can't get how the sound moves in the space. Further than that you miss other elements like the vibration of the guitar itself ( the feeling of the strings under your fingers, back/neck when you pluck the strings), not to say that the player hear the basses in a different way than the listener. In fact a tube video offers just a pale idea of the real thing. It can be of some use just as a reminder about how a guitar played when/if you have tried it in advance.
If you don't have these primary infos you necessarily fall into bias as your brain fills all the missing spots with presumptions.
If this wasn't enough, is it's good to consider that the world of guitar making is full of myths and misconcepts, some in good faith, some else due the flow of infos through internet: too many infos are a bad thing if you cannot list them in the proper order of value.
Out of experience I can say that plenty of people overestimate the value of the single elements like a certain wood or a certain bracing, or the wood ageing or the peghead or the finishing or whatever else. The main value of guitar making is the heart and hands of the artisan instead.
In the case of peghead, I respect your opinion, but after having reversed this feature in 2 guitars I am confident in saying that the peghead doesn't make a guitar sound more traditional.
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