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RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Rosette making (in reply to estebanana

I just stumbled across mine in a friend’s shop so, of course, I had to have one, lol. It weighs just short of 5 lbs, wouldn’t want to drop one on your foot. I don’t know how many of those the machinist made, but it couldn’t have been more than a few.

I have other bizarre clamps and such that I’ve picked up here and there. Some of the metalwork and creative solutions found on one-off/purpose-built stuff is amazing. I’m a bit of a collector at heart, I guess, and I like stuff like this so I don’t need a lot of nudging when I come across something interesting.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 16 2024 2:16:26
 
ernandez R

Posts: 741
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Rosette making (in reply to Stu

Nice work Stu! Really like the blue, good choice.

I like how you used the tiles, I too keep an eye open for southern Spain motifs I see and save them.

A few times over the last five years or so I’ve been on the venneer website and have a shoping cart full and then chicken out ;)

Seems like you could just as easy make five rosettes at the same time? I find each time I make some fiddly item that it gets better and much easier. Trying to recall if your kids are old enough to start playing with paper sisirs and past. Get ‘em started early!

I’ve been killing it in the shop last couple weeks, just glued the tops on a pair of classical and cut in some fancy end grafts to match today, walked out of the shop at 10:00 pm. Gotta print out a pair of labels and backs on tomorrow if all goes well.







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_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 16 2024 8:03:32
 
Stu

Posts: 2535
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Rosette making (in reply to ernandez R

Hey thanks hernandezR.

Yeah it's actually coming together now pretty well and seeing my pattern emerge on the end of the stick of strips is really pleasing.

My kids are 7 and 2.5. older one is intrigued by the rosette process. She loves art. I'm trying to get her involved somehow. However the 2.5 yr old loves everything and he has a habit of grabbing and ruining anything he can get hold of. 😭
So most grown up/serious crafts we do have to be away from him or once he's asleep.

He does however like to freestyle some flamenco dancing when I'm playing the guitar!

I like your fan rosette. What's the inspiration for those? And what's the inspiration for being, shall we say .. a little avante Garde? Or less traditional in your approach? It's pretty bold.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 16 2024 16:54:33
 
Stu

Posts: 2535
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Rosette making (in reply to Stu

All strips thicknessed successfully.

(Apart from top piece, but it's only slightly fat at that end as it cracked and didn't want mess with it any more until glued)

I'm very happy. Few squares that sit slightly off in that pic but I hope I've aligned correctly in the glue mold.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 17 2024 13:43:46
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1677
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Rosette making (in reply to Stu

quote:

a round mold when glueing


Yeah, that's interesting.

What I do is inlay the mosaic tiles with flat sides where the inside and outside curves should be, then when the glue is dry I route for the other parts of the rosette that lie inside and outside of the mosaic, clipping the inside and outside edges of the tiles just enough to round them.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 17 2024 18:25:52
 
RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Rosette making (in reply to constructordeguitarras

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

What I do is inlay the mosaic tiles with flat sides where the inside and outside curves should be, then when the glue is dry I route for the other parts of the rosette that lie inside and outside of the mosaic, clipping the inside and outside edges of the tiles just enough to round them.


That’s how I do it, too.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 17 2024 22:44:23
 
Stu

Posts: 2535
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Rosette making (in reply to RobF

I tried the Ramirez glue method.

I didn't work as well as hoped. Took the thing from the mold after a few hrs to check it and some parts hadn't stuck. Think I managed to remedy it now though.

It seems the bowl of glue they show in the Ramirez vid had some tiny bit of water added? Would you say that's correct? It seems looser
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 17 2024 22:48:13
 
ernandez R

Posts: 741
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Rosette making (in reply to Stu

Stu,
Thats looking really good.

Do you have the ring colors picked yet?
You build the whole rosette or do Like Ethan and Rob just mentioned and tile first in the top then rout for the rings etc. Going to try wheat too?

About the origin of my roseate style, hard to say just came to me, once I had the idea I ripped some wedges of wood and cut some strips of high rag art card stock and had a log assembled in about an hour. used a lot of super glue ;) sliced the end off in the band saw, wiped a thin film of CA into the end grain to stabilize, then sliced off another tile. I didn't use this first batch but it was fun to idea then produced output, I'm kind a creative endorphin junky so when I get an idea I race through it cause; like the say there is a fine line between a hero and a bunghole. Every once in a while I strike out. Anyone notice I glued the end graft tile on the Maple box upside down, face palm, of course I planed it that way. Hope you don't mind me jumping on your thread? I think some of my tile inspiration came from those early 18th century rosettes with the row of triangles around the sound hole almost like a sunburst.
the Boss just skied by the window, times to put the keyboard away.

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2024 1:34:50
 
RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Rosette making (in reply to Stu

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stu

I tried the Ramirez glue method.

I didn't work as well as hoped. Took the thing from the mold after a few hrs to check it and some parts hadn't stuck. Think I managed to remedy it now though.

It seems the bowl of glue they show in the Ramirez vid had some tiny bit of water added? Would you say that's correct? It seems looser


Hi Stu, it sounds like you’re either going pretty lean on the glue or taking way too long to apply it.

I use white glue and I do it at a sink, basically hold the fan in one hand, run the other under the tap to wet my fingers, then dip them in the glue. So, it does have a bit of water introduced. I slather the glue on, however, I don’t try to minimize it at all. Then once the glue is spread from one end to the next I close the fan and use my fingers to both squeeze out the excess glue and also form the stick into a square rod ready for the clamping mold.

If your stick is not fully adhering I think you’re either not applying enough glue or you’re squeezing it all out when forming the stick (too much pressure). The whole glue spreading operation goes so fast I can’t see how the glue would have enough time to dry, even if there was no water introduced. I mean, it takes less than a minute from first dry fanout to a completely glued up stick ready for the mold. Right before I put it in the mold I clean my hands and gently wipe the stick clean on the outside with my fingers or a damp rag, but I’m careful not to overdo it and make it too wet.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2024 2:30:34
 
johnguitar

 

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006
 

RE: Rosette making (in reply to Stu

Every white or yellow glue I have ever used is too thick as it comes from the bottle; the manufacturer usually allows for at least 5% extra water to be added. Having said that I have never done the second glue up of a mosaic (to make the log or final stick) with that sort of glue. Hide glue allows for the slices to rearrange themselves as they are forced into a circle by the veneer lines inside and outside when installed in the channel with lots of hot, wet glue. The result is great even if the rounding and angling of each tile is not perfect.

_____________________________

John Ray
https://www.johnguitar.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 19 2024 7:57:39
 
ernandez R

Posts: 741
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Rosette making (in reply to johnguitar

John,
do you use a more thin HHG for glueing up your log? Prewarm the bits and your tool?

One more question, is there an optimal log length you guys like to work with?

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 19 2024 17:56:30
 
Stu

Posts: 2535
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Rosette making (in reply to ernandez R

hey thanks.

I havent actully thought of the rest of teh lines/ring colours, chevrons etc but now you ask ive been thinking what i will do.

previously I built the rosette in the routed channel. one channel woth the router, taper the stick before cutting up tiles so theya re already tapered to make the pattern round. then just build it straight in the soundboard with the lines.

Hey rob, I didnt add water at first. fanned out the strips and caked them in glue. by the time id flipped it round to do the other end...the glue was gripping pretty tight on the first end. which seemed quick as it was all a matter of a few seconds. anyway. ill add a touch of water to the glue firstly next time.

All good now anyways. glue dry and out of the glueing form. guess Ill taper and cut a few tiles next and see how the pattern runs through the stick.

cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 20 2024 21:15:29
 
johnguitar

 

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006
 

RE: Rosette making (in reply to ernandez R

Yes, the HHG I use for that is quite thin but then I use it quite thin for a lot of different glue ups. As for the length of the log it is more a question of how long your mold or your cauls are. No reason to make it too long, if you screw up a short one you are throwing away less work.

_____________________________

John Ray
https://www.johnguitar.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 22 2024 8:16:12
 
ernandez R

Posts: 741
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Rosette making (in reply to Stu

Stu,
Was really digging your blue theme and had some time to kill with my laptop handy, opened up my CAD program and played around with some ideas.

Wanted to stick with my triangles AKA fans as Rob likes to call them, and thought just to get a grip on the process I would use 1.0mm. Veneer/squares.

About midway through two 650 classicals but going to join up two WRC tops tomorrow for my next pair of 666mm flamencas, AYC (alaska yellow cedar) back and ribs, and one with green trimmed bindings etc and rosette and one with the blue if I find I can make up some tiles that are worthy.

I’m up for any suggestions you might have.

HR







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_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2024 7:51:00
 
Stu

Posts: 2535
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Rosette making (in reply to ernandez R

Cool!!!

That's lovely to feel I inspired you somewhat!

I really like the look of those fans. A little evolution of your fan design with the blue is great. It looks a little more like a classic pericón shape!
Very keen to see the outcome.

Also what cad program do you use?
I would like to get one and learn a little
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 25 2024 21:07:42
 
ernandez R

Posts: 741
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Rosette making (in reply to Stu

The CAD program I use is called Graphite, it’s been around a long time, think I used the precursor thirty years ago, it had/has some really cool features that made it stand out from Auto-Cad and the others back in the day. Gotta be honest though, the learning curve for any cad program is brutal, **** I forget features then rediscover them later; sucks to get old.

Back to my tiles, think I’ll make that tall narrow log as a rectangle then shave the sides to the triangle shape, as I only use six tiles around my rosette I only need a short log of the compleat “fan”, but it takes six pieces of the primary, if I want to end up with a 10cm of fan log I need to have 60cm of the other. Sounds like a mile in the metric ;)

I was thinking there was a hint of the Alhambra rosette in this one. Made by ??? I’ll need to google peracon

Still not exactly sure how to finish the pointy end, going to do a test run of some black walnut and poplar I have laying around before I use the colored veneers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stu

Cool!!!

That's lovely to feel I inspired you somewhat!

I really like the look of those fans. A little evolution of your fan design with the blue is great. It looks a little more like a classic pericón shape!
Very keen to see the outcome.

Also what cad program do you use?
I would like to get one and learn a little


_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 26 2024 5:27:38
 
ernandez R

Posts: 741
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Rosette making (in reply to RobF

Well… can’t say it’s my best work but I can say it’s my first ;)

1mm, dog knows how you guys do half a mm.

Learned a lot though, some how I overclamp the stack of veneers that didn’t have any color and it really shows. Wasn’t a lot of consistency even though my home made veneers were spot on a couple hundredths of an inch. Now I know to use a block both sides of the veneer stack to set the hight of the clamping cull. I did use them when I clamped up the log but I did it sideways of course.

Need to make a green set for the other guitar and not yet sure if I will remake this blue or use what I have.

Oh ya, the log was a thin rectangle .270” x 1.160” so to get the triangle I set a sharp box knife blade on the exact line and smacked it with a small dead blow hammer. Easy peasy.

HR



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_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2024 7:12:32
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 651
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: Rosette making (in reply to RobF

today i saw very nice , different , original ones , and the guitars pretty awesome























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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2024 22:22:00
 
ernandez R

Posts: 741
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Rosette making (in reply to RobF

Output!



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_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 1 2024 4:56:37
 
RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Rosette making (in reply to ernandez R

That’s really nice! Impressive, actually.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 1 2024 5:16:55
 
Stu

Posts: 2535
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Rosette making (in reply to ernandez R

Oh WoW. I love it. Blue seems to be an under used colour in flamenco/classical rosettes and lines.
Nice work.

Thanks for keeping this thread going.

I'll try and find a moment to contribute working on mine and posting some pics/updates.

If I didn't have young demanding kids, you'd be inspiring me to keep going with my work.


Nice rosette selection manitas. Thanks
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 2 2024 8:54:16
 
ernandez R

Posts: 741
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Rosette making (in reply to Stu

Negative forty below zero yesterday, just stayed home, stoked the shop wood stove, and turned Little pieces of into tiny pieces of wood.

I made a pair of veneer glueing trays to keep the layers clamped up the same thickness all around basically a box with a thick plate I can clamp on top. Made the whole glue up process a snap. I oiled the box with olive oil cause it handy but lined the box with clear kitchen wrap. I cheated and used thick CA on these two logs.

I started in the shop at 8:45am and walked out at 9:00pm, half that time on a shop stool or I never could have lasted that long. A short lunch and dinner break because I’m not invincible.

Question for the rosette pros: how do you deal with the swelling and shrinking of the HHG or TB water born kind? By the time I get my seven layers all wet out they have swollen a lot. Can’t imagine twice as many .5mm layers (I’m doing 1mm cause ;)

As you noticed I janked the green/poplar log, if only I had stoped to make a glue up mold like I did for the veneer stacks… glue and learn!

I think the black walnut/poplar tile would look better without the lines in the middle so I’ll give that a try.

I did add a row of poplar on the vary top but it made the lines going through it look stupid… I don’t know, I’ll sit on these for a bit before I dicide how I’ll actually use them. Told the Boss they’d make some fancy earrings if nothing else ;)

Getting a handle on how much material I need so I didn’t wast a lot of time is important. I’m making my own veneers cause that’s how I roll. Set up a zero relief plate on my 12” bandsaw with a nice 1/2 blade, sand the face of the veneer block with each cut, then cut 1-2 thousandths of an inch over. I light pull or three over a sanding block smooths the rough side just enough. Not sure I could do .5mm though, not with the polar for sure but I have some birch that might do. My first set of veneers for the blue tile I made 6” long, just long enough to not make two guitars worth :/ Made these two starting with a 4” block plenty for o guitar of my style and enough extra but without wasting much.

Only -38f this morning which as you know is about the same as -38C…

HR

Stu, thought about time time I’m taking for this side trip and you with your family, only made one myself and wish we had made more, I would trade you in a heartbeat!

Rob, thanx for the compliment.









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_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 2 2024 18:03:47
 
RobF

Posts: 1611
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Rosette making (in reply to ernandez R

quote:

Getting a handle on how much material I need so I didn’t wast a lot of time is important. I’m making my own veneers cause that’s how I roll.


I think you might have touched on this subject in the past, but if you’re ever in the mood to do a tutorial on how you slice and dye your veneers I think it would make for a very interesting thread.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 2 2024 19:58:50
 
Stu

Posts: 2535
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Rosette making (in reply to ernandez R

Man these are really cool! Really intricate, simple but really effective.

Aww yeah. I bemoan my lack of free time with the kids and their demands, but yeah wouldn't change them! Just can't wait til the youngest is slightly older. Then I'll get my hobbies back!!

Thanks for keeping the thread alive btw.

I haven't been able to do much more on mine. Although I did just cut a tile off my block to see how it looks!



I'm very pleased really as this is the first rosette I've designed and made on my own.

I do think the white veneer I bought isn't the best for this kind of thing. It seems to go a bit spongy in places. And has made areas of the stick a little odd. Anyway all a good learning process. Just need a sound board to add it to now!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 9 2024 6:51:04
 
ernandez R

Posts: 741
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Rosette making (in reply to Stu

Oh man, Stu that’s going to look great! Can’t wait to see how you take it next.

Still unimaginable how you guys do .5mm…


HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2024 7:10:09
 
Stu

Posts: 2535
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Rosette making (in reply to ernandez R

Thanks man!

Need to design the rest of the rosette. lines, etc

What do you do then?? 1mm squares?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 10 2024 19:39:48
 
ernandez R

Posts: 741
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Rosette making (in reply to Stu

Ya, 1mm-ish .040” in American units.

Redrew my fan log but haven’t started making shavings and dust just yet.





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_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2024 22:02:06
 
ernandez R

Posts: 741
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Rosette making (in reply to RobF

Dust and shavings:









I love the smell of Alaskan Yellow Cedar in the evening.

HR

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_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2024 3:38:21
 
Jim Frieson

 

Posts: 19
Joined: May 28 2014
 

RE: Rosette making (in reply to Stu

Sanding works well for smoothing strips .
Caveat ; most plastic glues that are used for making rosettes gum up sandpaper fast ,
so keep using fresh sandpaper.

When laminating veneers and strips , that you want all to be of the same dimension when they are glued , it is a good idea to use steel plates as gluing cauls .
Tends to keep the laminations flat , straight , and of the same thickness .
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 8:03:46
 
ernandez R

Posts: 741
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Rosette making (in reply to Jim Frieson

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Frieson

Sanding works well for smoothing strips .
Caveat ; most plastic glues that are used for making rosettes gum up sandpaper fast ,
so keep using fresh sandpaper.

When laminating veneers and strips , that you want all to be of the same dimension when they are glued , it is a good idea to use steel plates as gluing cauls .
Tends to keep the laminations flat , straight , and of the same thickness .


Jim, for the initial veneer glueup I made a pair of simple wood “boxes” out of some scrap I had laying around and stiff lids to clamp the stack at the exact hight. Sure made the whole process a snap.

I gave up on using water born glues and am using a slower cure thick CA, it’s a titebond product. I wipe the boxes with olive oil as a precautionary release then line with a piece of kitchen wrap film, glue the strips one at a time after laying in the box then fold the film over and clamp the caul on top. Then fill the second side, hop back to the first and unclamp and pull the cover off and two small taps of accelerator with a applicator stick aka toothpick or the like, clamp back up. Accelerate the #2 then unpack #1, fill back up, etc… goes super fast, glued up a hand full of strips in about 30 min.

I have a downdraft section of my big workbench about 12” x 6” that vents outside and I work over that cause. Work smart, work safe.

A thing about most CA used to day in woodworking and craft: it takes 24 hours to fully cure so it’s not fully instant, some are but it’s hard to tell.

I didn’t care for how the blue turned once wetted out with glue in my first fan tile iteration so I’m using a different darker blue. Also using Ak yellow cedar to match the ribs/back on these upcoming flamencas. Set them aside for the moment to keep at the two guitars I’ve got in process. I get lost with too many irons in the fire ;)


HR





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Attachment (2)

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 17:04:46
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