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RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers "... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
now imagine 4 for these , what i thougth was , imagine if with dry or more air humidty the woods expands or crack , maybe easier with this issue (or not) , and if one day wanted to sell , other people will refuse for same reasons
RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata
So , they destroy the creations? they keep in storage? its a pitty because sometimes are minor issues that most cant see or notice , and you could have still a better quality guitar rather a cheap one (massive market factory)
I've made over 200x guitars, I'm yet to make one soo bad that it has to be destroyed. I'm not boasting, just a good example that "B" stock is quite rare. In saying that - plenty of times I have made a new soundboard for one of my guitars because i didn't like the original, or turned a fretboard into dust, or rerouted binding and purfling etc etc.
Everything is repairable, just depends how many hours you want to put into repairing a new guitar.
I do have 2x of my guitars that i have kept for me personally because they had visual blemishes. One was severely dented shortly after finishing, the other took a fall off the bench and cracked the back - although repaired and stabilized its not the same. Both these guitars are still great guitars but i could not sell as a new instruments.
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Regards, Steve
Toscano Guitars: Fine traditional style Flamenco and Classical guitars made in Sydney Australia.
RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to Stu)
all my views , posts and or interations with others dont have the purpose to hassle , toss or make it "personal "
so theres no win , defeat , in matter of fact we are getting nice "insider" views , that maybe arent so romantic as a lot of people would tought . Thank to those that arent afraid to comment "when **** happens" , because sometimes happens.
RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
quote:
in matter of fact we are getting nice "insider" views , that maybe arent so romantic as a lot of people would tought . Thank to those that arent afraid to comment "when **** happens" , because sometimes happens.
You are missing the point. Yes, wood is a variable material, unplanned things happen, even mistakes; this is all normal, no one is denying that. The point is that experienced luthiers can deal with all that in the process of building. Dealing with wood/building problems and finding solutions is a fundamental part of their skill set.
If you would like more 'insider' views search the foro luthier section. It has many threads with expert luthiers discussing problems, solutions and the building process. We are fortunate to be able to witness the process and art of some expert guitar builders here.
Posts: 15425
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
quote:
I understand what do you say and unfort. isnt a fair world , if i suck playing i cannot charge , i have to pay for people to listen to me , as the level increases you also increase what you charge.
Before continuing further with your ridiculous assessment on “B stock” anything, let me relate the pricing I was privy too back in 2007 or so, of the big 4 flamenco guitar concertizers coming to USA. Gerardo Nuñez 7k for his Trio and group with dancer and cantaor. Vicente Amigo 10K for his group, similar size. Tomatito 20k for similar sized group. Paco de Lucia, no less than 1 million dollars for 10 show minimum tour ($100k per show) for Septet. Guess the price versus amount of musical mistakes ratio? Nuñez and Amigo were typically flawless, compared to the other 2 with Paco often making the most errors on stage. Explain this first and then continue with your search for B stock hand built guitar builds.
RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers "... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
This back was thinned too much, as were the wings on this bridge, The neck is also thinner than I like and the fingerboard has the fret slots cut perpendicular to the inclined edge. At one point I thought of making a guitar with some obviously flawed pieces as a novelty item but it was a stupid idea. I still can’t bring my self to throw away the mistakes from 25 years of building.
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RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers "... (in reply to johnguitar)
Here’s my contribution, lol.
I’ve also got tops, bridges, sides, and backs that didn’t make the grade. You’re right, it’s hard to throw the stuff out although I do repurpose what I can. My friend Sergei has built over a thousand guitars and he is still adding to his pile. He would never let a guitar that didn’t meet his standards out of his shop, it’s simply not worth it. That’s pretty well the story with every maker I know.
The sad thing is Manitas will take these photos as proof positive that he is right in his wrong-headedness. In reality, it proves exactly what everyone who’s responded has been telling him right from the get go, which is that any maker worth their salt doesn’t put their mistakes into circulation, they redo, repair, or reject. There are no “deals” to be had simply because the “not so good” stock does not exist. But he’ll never get that because he’s a troll on a crusade, I fear.
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RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers "... (in reply to RobF)
Hum? no... not really....
its nice to share common and different point of view , altough some people said (not me) here that at a certain level makers dont do mistakes...
In the past i worked (almost no digital content to learn) with some materials , reparing and craft from scratch almost with no electric tools, just a sander and a planer , the rest werent electric , and i know theres many things to control in the process. Therefore you can control with a "controlled room" that have all the conditions to do that , "factory" style , like controled temperature , humidity etc very important , and sometimes the material is sold as the same , and when you start you realise that its not and others issues like a tool that starts to show less precision , somedays you dont feel ok or you fell tired , or stress with deadline , thats also the timming when errors are made. so **** happens
sorry that you didnt understood that i allready skiped an oportunity and regreat it. or you didnt read ... , thats why im lookin for another , of course it not easy to find , i dont know many makers , and here are very very few of them (flamenco or classical) and some do other things . well i can allways save more cash and get a "no issue" one of course, yet im open to opportunities.
RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers "... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
There’s nothing inherently wrong with a maker offering “seconds” at a reduced rate. “Seconds” is a pretty broad term, however. What people have been trying to tell you here is that, with individual makers at least, there simply isn’t an abundant supply of ‘B’ stock available because many or most makers will make corrections throughout the build process to minimize this. Also, many makers simply will not offer the option.
You can hold on to your beliefs and that’s OK. People have offered honest descriptions of how they choose to conduct their businesses and you can decide from that how appropriate it is for you to continue to pursue the topic. It’s important to understand that the makers who frequent this section are individuals who are practicing the craft at various levels, from novice to full blown professional. The section mainly exists for people to help each other out and discuss the craft. It’s a great section to follow if you’re interested in the nuts and bolts of guitar making. But even if it were a trade section, you won’t get far with fault finding or aggressive bargaining, as most are proud of their work and won’t react positively. And frankly, the person who would be willing to haggle with you is likely going to give you exactly what you deserve.
Regardless of all that, best of luck in your quest, there’s no doubt times are tight, and there’s no foul in wanting to find the best deal you can. But this is probably not the right place to be looking for it. Maybe it would be better to post an advert in the classifieds section stating that you’re looking for a guitar within a specific price range, let people know the general area where you live and that you’d like a handmade guitar and mention that you are open to considering ‘seconds’ or ‘B’ stock. Posts to that section are tightly controlled so you would have to conduct any discussions via PM, but that might be the best way to take it from here.
RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers "... (in reply to RobF)
thanks for your reply , usefull .
i saw a classical from a chinese luthier , that dropped more that 1000K , it was like 6000 and something..., ups (suppose) made a mistake handling her...
the purpose , was to help each other , not to find seconds and flip them or so ever. I realise that things often take huge dimension aroud here , hope that its just around here , like its quite odd to have that posture (not yours) all the time in personal life , and of course no one is forced to do an offer and accept.
like i said , i will wait for the right time to have "no seconds" or have it, its a pitty that i know one guy that make top guitars for very very nice price and for now hes on hold , well i dont have hurry so i can wait .
RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers "... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
There’s nothing like solitude of the shop on a good day to insulate your soul from the stress and pain of the outside world. Just doing your work listening to an audio book. Then an improvised lunch of shiitake mushrooms from the previous night’s dinner folded into a fresh hunk of baguette.
Cheers mates. For those about to make guitars we salute you!
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RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers "... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
I have eczema problems with my hands. I use several different prescription medications on my hands. If you have dry skin and it’s not a medical condition, but simply dry skin, here’s my advice. Go to the drug store and find a hand cream with Ceramide and Vaseline base with no alcohol. They are more expensive than regular skin cream. If you can’t find that try a hand cream, any cream without an alcohol base. Find one that works for you and use it as many times a day as you need. If that means 6 times per day that’s what will keep your skin safe.
Get something like this ideally- this one made by Kose
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Posts: 1706
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA
RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers B Stock (in reply to RobF)
quote:
Most serious makers do not want to put an instrument that doesn’t meet their standards into circulation and won’t work with you on this. They have nothing to gain from it.
They might like to gain money for mistakes. They could sell them without labels.
Yeah, I suppose it happens. I’ve discounted guitars that have had shop damage, mainly from being scratched up or having button rashes from people trying them out, but they didn’t have mistakes or quality issues. I’ve given some away, too, for various reasons, but again, none of them had quality issues.
I think maybe in North America, due to the distances and more isolation between makers, what you mention might happen less than, say, in Spain where individual making is more established and maybe there’s an easier market for selling unlabelled guitars? I don’t know the answer to that, I’m just speculating. I guess it could also come down to how a person was taught and how their teachers did things, that’s not a value judgement on anything, just people will often follow the paths they’re shown.
RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers "... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
This is a test piece for a headstock design. I will sell it for $5050.00 USD and for an additional $500.00 USD I’ll include a guitar with strings, a neck, a top, a body and tuners and a bridge. And I’ll take the label out for an additional $1200.00 USD
Payment in advance of delivery, customer pays shipping and insurance. No trial period or refunds.
Can we please stop the OP from insulting us anymore? This thread is profoundly stupid and pointless.
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RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers "... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
My scond guitar became the beach bonfire loner guitar. If Steven would share his secret bee attractant flower I could make it into a hive, truly Bee stock ;)
**** all m guitars are B-stock, I’ll let you know when I build a perfect one. Better yet I’ll advertise it in the classified section.
One of my best I gave away to this kid, he had it bad, his mom told me he loved playing classical but had never actually seen anyone in the flesh play one. From a small Alaskan town. I was playing outside on a bench and this kid was just starring at me. Just seemed the right thing to do…
HR
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I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers "... (in reply to ernandez R)
quote:
ORIGINAL: ernandez R
My scond guitar became the beach bonfire loner guitar. If Steven would share his secret bee attractant flower I could make it into a hive, truly Bee stock ;)
**** all m guitars are B-stock, I’ll let you know when I build a perfect one. Better yet I’ll advertise it in the classified section.
One of my best I gave away to this kid, he had it bad, his mom told me he loved playing classical but had never actually seen anyone in the flesh play one. From a small Alaskan town. I was playing outside on a bench and this kid was just starring at me. Just seemed the right thing to do…
HR
Giving the kid the guitar was good thing. That was probably the most flamenco thing you’ve done since getting trampled by a moose . 🫎
RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers "... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
Well , this is a stupid topic as you say, and have also many stupid comments (ok if you feel apropriate) , the other topic (varnish) thats not stupid (in my point of view) theres Zero Help given...for a "simple" thing.
The things are what you decide to be , like your own reflexion. So , im not really the issue or this topic , but what you decide to become. "Lets trash a topic because i say its stupid, but the other its better not to comment because its easier to trash this one"
RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers "... (in reply to Manitas de Lata)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata
Well , this is a stupid topic as you say, and have also many stupid comments (ok if you feel apropriate) , the other topic (varnish) thats not stupid (in my point of view) theres Zero Help given...for a "simple" thing.
The things are what you decide to be , like your own reflexion. So , im not really the issue or this topic , but what you decide to become. "Lets trash a topic because i say its stupid, but the other its better not to comment because its easier to trash this one"
There’s another forum about guitar about guitar making where your questions would be better received because there’s a large and under informed group of non guitar makers ready to give advice and opinions on guitar making. You’d be good fit there. It’s called DelCamp Guitar Forum. Try it and see if it suits your tastes better.
Many accomplished guitar makers assessed your questions then provided realistic and relevant answers. If the answers are not satisfactory there are two possible explanations. First, the group of guitar makers here don’t have the answers that validate or confirm your certainty that guitar makers have ‘B’ versions if their work for you to buy at a discount. Or it was a question that wasn’t well thought out before it was asked.
I suggest you ask the same question on two other different guitar maker groups and compare the answers. After that come to a conclusion about how the guitar makers assess your questions.
It’s not easier to trash a question about potential sales of our work, our guitars that we spend many week making before we release them to the buyer, we want to sell guitars. You are one of those guys who it looking for a cheaper guitar, you’re not entitled to a cheaper guitar, you will pay the same price as all the other customers who commission an instrument because you are not above them on the list. If you want a custom guitar get on a waiting list and pay your deposit and please wait until it’s your turn to have your guitar built. If you want a faster guitar with flaws or a used guitar your time will be better spent combing auction sites and for sales lists. There is a Guitar For Sale list at DelCamp Forum, I suggest you comb through it.
So you have options, you can ask your ‘B list’ questions on other forums, you can search auctions, but your query on this group has obviously run its course. A half dozen vetted pro guitar makers and some high level second career makers have proffered excellent feedback at Foro Flamenco Luthiery section.
RE: Guitar Makers and Luthiers "... (in reply to estebanana)
you can give all the turns that you wish
you (plural) are so good crafting , wise , intelligent , that prefer to give all atention to this and trash it , the other topic that requires simple advice , you dont give a ****.
i call it intelectual dishonesty and lack of respect . i feel sorry for you...
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