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Speaking of food…a friend of mine was at a wedding in Almería with his family and the Tomato family was also there. He sent me a couple of pictures during the event, including one with him and José. I texted back and said ask him what scale length he prefers. The reply came back, a minimum of 665mm. But he has big hands.
I think the cejilla is the main reason. Sonically is more difficult to pin down as, while it’s nice to assign specific sonic or tactile attributes to things like scale length or different types of wood, those are really more generalizations and there’s always going to be exceptions. Nothing is a given.
(Reply was for Stu, actually, I hit the wrong reply button because I wanted to grab the quote)
Fascinating stuff but could you give any practical or technical examples to support your statement.
I'm not trying to be smart or challenge you. In genuinely interested why sorry scale is no good.
I once had to put it at 8 por arriba. It is funny that I wanted to play 3 por medio for the singer, but the DANCER was not having it! So way the heck up there is where you suddenly realize your fingers can’t even stack in the frets properly for certain voicings, even with a cutaway. The long scale will have wider fret spaces. The only guitar I have that is that big is the old Sobrinos de Esteso, 670, you capo up high and it is very easy to finger as normal. As if the guitars were designed for cante accompaniment or something???
Yes ok. So the only real reason that shorter scale length is bad is when you may have to accompany up past 7th/8th fret?
I see why it's problematic then but how many of us are doing that regularly? Even the pros? Seems like the stories here of that, are remarkable cos they are rare?
I see why it's problematic then but how many of us are doing that regularly? Even the pros? Seems like the stories here of that, are remarkable cos they are rare?
It's not that rare. I'm no pro and I have had to accompany at 7,8, several times. I can understand if a dancer or singer wants the por arriba feeling rather than por medio e.g. por solea. Sure, if not accompanying then cejilla is not an issue. But Morante stated "Short scale flamenco guitars are not a good idea." And when he says flamenco I presume he means flamenco i.e. cante.
For me I prefer a longer scale even without considering the cejilla issue. People talk about how this can effect sound/right hand feel etc... but then it will be a 'food fight' because none of this is absolute and it's difficult to be objective.
Maybe if we throw a bun at Estebanana he will fight back. On his website he writes:
"I like to make long scale, 655 mm to 665 mm, flamenco guitars, but I can certainly work for the player who wants a shorter scale by making the Alameda model as a flamenco guitar with a shorter scale. I’ve made some very nice shorter scale guitars, including the 645 mm scale flamenco that famed guitarist David Serva now plays." https://stephenfaulkguitars.com/2021/guitar/
I see why it's problematic then but how many of us are doing that regularly? Even the pros? Seems like the stories here of that, are remarkable cos they are rare?
In all honesty it is an excuse either way. I tell long scale complainers to pick up a bass guitar and try some scales for a few minutes then return to guitar. Short scale complainers I say the same but pick up a ukulele for a few minutes. Suddenly the guitar feels just fine no matter what your complaining is. It is like in baseball when you swing two bats for several minutes to warm up to the the plate. It is a psychological trick that really works.
I can admit I have played Solea thousands of more times at capo 7 than below it. The worst is when in rehearsal the singer sings lower than in the show, and you have worked out fingers at capo 6, then suddenly they want 7 on stage. Be prepared is my advice to all players. I actually witnessed a fight between two gitanos over this issue during sound check. The singer no longer felt comfortable low after several rehearsals, then wanted higher for the actual show (revealed by the sound check). The guitarist (I was second guitar in this one) said he had worked his falsetas a fret lower and it was too late to change all the music day of the show. Gypsy language even was used and a lot of yelling, and they stopped talking to each other for some years because of this.
Anyone able to press down and play all E notes on guitar at the same time? If you can, let me know. Who knows maybe over 190cm tall guys can do it.
Low and high E are played open. The first finger on 4th string 2nd fret The second finger on 2nd string 5th fret The third finger on 5th string 7th fret The fourth finger on 3rd string 9th fret
Anyone able to press down and play all E notes on guitar at the same time? If you can, let me know. Who knows maybe over 190cm tall guys can do it.
Low and high E are played open. The first finger on 4th string 2nd fret The second finger on 2nd string 5th fret The third finger on 5th string 7th fret The fourth finger on 3rd string 9th fret
The guitarist (I was second guitar in this one) said he had worked his falsetas a fret lower and it was too late to change all the music day of the show. Gypsy language even was used and a lot of yelling, and they stopped talking to each other for some years because of this.
The guitarist (I was second guitar in this one) said he had worked his falsetas a fret lower and it was too late to change all the music day of the show. Gypsy language even was used and a lot of yelling, and they stopped talking to each other for some years because of this.
The details are even funnier. The end of the argument came when the other guitarist pointed out I was playing in a different tonality, and because I did not use a capo to match the key, I would have to retune my guitar in the middle of the show. The singer was baffled by this, as the Guitarist was utilizing the singer’s ignorance of guitar mechanics and music transposition to put it to bed. However, the singer was very skeptical because the other guy was playing in capo 3 D# phrygian. I had worked out my own accompaniment to his part with my own harmonies and counter themes/chords etc, in open position Taranta (F#). The singer wanted a HIGHER pitch to sing, rendering the D# capo 3 guitar to run out of fret room up high. So the singer was thinking, why would Ricardo need to retune, couldn’t he just put on a capo to increase the pitch as any traditional guitarist would?? So in the dressing room the singer confronted me in private: “is what he saying true compadre? You can’t play in a higher pitch without retune?”….and there I was stuck in the middle of the politics. But I refuse to be a liar, so I said “I can use a capo but HE won’t be able to play his part, he would have to re work it to a different tonality”…
The thing is, the singer actually preferred what I was playing as it sounded more “traditional” anyway, and whatever the lead guitar was doing sounded like “Jax fusion de mierda!” . We stuck to the program in the end. I have a funnier story where a cantaora could not handle singing two different cantes (Guajiras and a buleria in major like Pajarerro etc, cuz she had no other fast ending prepared for Guajiras) in the same key….unhappy with either 3 or 4 por medio (La mayor) for one cante or the other. After several tries she insisted that I change keys at the end….but it is in the middle of heavy footwork where I am driving hard compas. So the only way I could achieve such a thing was with two capos, so that I could flick one Dunlop style capo off after the llamada. It was so bizarre sounding and everybody was rolling their eyes, but I had no choice.
****, in my next life I so want this to be my Foro user name!
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I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
The guitarist (I was second guitar in this one) said he had worked his falsetas a fret lower and it was too late to change all the music day of the show. Gypsy language even was used and a lot of yelling, and they stopped talking to each other for some years because of this.
The details are even funnier. The end of the argument came when the other guitarist pointed out I was playing in a different tonality, and because I did not use a capo to match the key, I would have to retune my guitar in the middle of the show. The singer was baffled by this, as the Guitarist was utilizing the singer’s ignorance of guitar mechanics and music transposition to put it to bed. However, the singer was very skeptical because the other guy was playing in capo 3 D# phrygian. I had worked out my own accompaniment to his part with my own harmonies and counter themes/chords etc, in open position Taranta (F#). The singer wanted a HIGHER pitch to sing, rendering the D# capo 3 guitar to run out of fret room up high. So the singer was thinking, why would Ricardo need to retune, couldn’t he just put on a capo to increase the pitch as any traditional guitarist would?? So in the dressing room the singer confronted me in private: “is what he saying true compadre? You can’t play in a higher pitch without retune?”….and there I was stuck in the middle of the politics. But I refuse to be a liar, so I said “I can use a capo but HE won’t be able to play his part, he would have to re work it to a different tonality”…
The thing is, the singer actually preferred what I was playing as it sounded more “traditional” anyway, and whatever the lead guitar was doing sounded like “Jax fusion de mierda!” . We stuck to the program in the end. I have a funnier story where a cantaora could not handle singing two different cantes (Guajiras and a buleria in major like Pajarerro etc, cuz she had no other fast ending prepared for Guajiras) in the same key….unhappy with either 3 or 4 por medio (La mayor) for one cante or the other. After several tries she insisted that I change keys at the end….but it is in the middle of heavy footwork where I am driving hard compas. So the only way I could achieve such a thing was with two capos, so that I could flick one Dunlop style capo off after the llamada. It was so bizarre sounding and everybody was rolling their eyes, but I had no choice.
There was the fellow Chris Cairns ( correct?) he was in Moron in the 60’s and made recordings that are famous among Moronies- he was known as Chris Dos Santos - because he owned two Santos guitars. Now we have ‘Ricardo Dos Cejillas de la Jax mierda’
I thought that the longer scale would be harder to play but it doesn't. I just bought a Jeronimo Perez which is 670 and is easiest guitar I have played yet.
I thought that the longer scale would be harder to play but it doesn't. I just bought a Jeronimo Perez which is 670 and is easiest guitar I have played yet.
The details are even funnier. The end of the argument came when the other guitarist pointed out I was playing in a different tonality, and because I did not use a capo to match the key, I would have to retune my guitar in the middle of the show. The singer was baffled by this, as the Guitarist was utilizing the singer’s ignorance of guitar mechanics and music transposition to put it to bed. However, the singer was very skeptical because the other guy was playing in capo 3 D# phrygian. I had worked out my own accompaniment to his part with my own harmonies and counter themes/chords etc, in open position Taranta (F#). The singer wanted a HIGHER pitch to sing, rendering the D# capo 3 guitar to run out of fret room up high. So the singer was thinking, why would Ricardo need to retune, couldn’t he just put on a capo to increase the pitch as any traditional guitarist would?? So in the dressing room the singer confronted me in private: “is what he saying true compadre? You can’t play in a higher pitch without retune?”….and there I was stuck in the middle of the politics. But I refuse to be a liar, so I said “I can use a capo but HE won’t be able to play his part, he would have to re work it to a different tonality”…
The thing is, the singer actually preferred what I was playing as it sounded more “traditional” anyway, and whatever the lead guitar was doing sounded like “Jax fusion de mierda!” . We stuck to the program in the end. I have a funnier story where a cantaora could not handle singing two different cantes (Guajiras and a buleria in major like Pajarerro etc, cuz she had no other fast ending prepared for Guajiras) in the same key….unhappy with either 3 or 4 por medio (La mayor) for one cante or the other. After several tries she insisted that I change keys at the end….but it is in the middle of heavy footwork where I am driving hard compas. So the only way I could achieve such a thing was with two capos, so that I could flick one Dunlop style capo off after the llamada. It was so bizarre sounding and everybody was rolling their eyes, but I had no choice.
I thought that the longer scale would be harder to play but it doesn't. I just bought a Jeronimo Perez which is 670 and is easiest guitar I have played yet.
What year is it? It seems he used to make more 670 scale in the past. These days 655 seems more common, maybe he still occasionally builds a longer scale.
Apparently Miguel Salado gave feedback and helped Jeronimo Perez develop in his earlier days and encouraged a longer scale. Now Perez guitars are going to higher end dealers, perhaps they have encouraged a shorter scale for that market?
I helped Jero long before Miguel and he was influenced by my Gerundino. I played dozens of his early guitars. His mother is cousin of my wife
Thanks for posting. I had read your previous posts about your family connection but didn't know so much about the guitar building influence. And now he is well on the path to being a top guitar maker!
What year is it? It seems he used to make more 670 scale in the past. These days 655 seems more common, maybe he still occasionally builds a longer scale.
Apparently Miguel Salado gave feedback and helped Jeronimo Perez develop in his earlier days and encouraged a longer scale. Now Perez guitars are going to higher end dealers, perhaps they have encouraged a shorter scale for that market?
Yeah...My bad. The 2022 Jeronimo Perez is actually 655!
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So way the heck up there is where you suddenly realize your fingers can’t even stack in the frets properly for certain voicings, even with a cutaway. The long scale will have wider fret spaces. The only guitar I have that is that big is the old Sobrinos de Esteso, 670, you capo up high and it is very easy to finger as normal. As if the guitars were designed for cante accompaniment or something??? 
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