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Morante

 

Posts: 2216
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

Scale length 

Short scale flamenco guitars are not a good idea.

My guitar is 670mm, I have small hands but never found it uncomfortable.. Cejilla at the 2nd fret it is 600mm. At 5th fret 510mm.

The other night I saw a tocaor accompaning a cantaora at the 7th fret: 450mm.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 10 2023 17:01:30
 
Stu

Posts: 2618
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Scale length (in reply to Morante

Fascinating stuff but could you give any practical or technical examples to support your statement.

I'm not trying to be smart or challenge you. Im genuinely interested why short scale is no good.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 10 2023 17:24:00
 
estebanana

Posts: 9396
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Scale length (in reply to Morante

FOOD FIGHT !

_____________________________

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 10 2023 17:28:53
 
orsonw

Posts: 1958
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Scale length (in reply to Stu

quote:

but could you give any practical or technical examples to support your statement.


He already has. When accompanying cante sometimes the cejilla is up at 8,9,or 10th fret. A longer scale guitar gives a little more space.

I will let the luthiers discuss sound and other harder to measure attributes.

I prefer 670mm. Easier accompanying high up and I even prefer the longer scale playing with no cejilla. I have average size hands.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 10 2023 17:56:26
 
RobF

Posts: 1618
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Scale length (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

FOOD FIGHT !


Speaking of food…a friend of mine was at a wedding in Almería with his family and the Tomato family was also there. He sent me a couple of pictures during the event, including one with him and José. I texted back and said ask him what scale length he prefers. The reply came back, a minimum of 665mm. But he has big hands.

I think the cejilla is the main reason. Sonically is more difficult to pin down as, while it’s nice to assign specific sonic or tactile attributes to things like scale length or different types of wood, those are really more generalizations and there’s always going to be exceptions. Nothing is a given.

(Reply was for Stu, actually, I hit the wrong reply button because I wanted to grab the quote)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 10 2023 18:34:38
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14995
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Scale length (in reply to Stu

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stu

Fascinating stuff but could you give any practical or technical examples to support your statement.

I'm not trying to be smart or challenge you. In genuinely interested why sorry scale is no good.


I once had to put it at 8 por arriba. It is funny that I wanted to play 3 por medio for the singer, but the DANCER was not having it! So way the heck up there is where you suddenly realize your fingers can’t even stack in the frets properly for certain voicings, even with a cutaway. The long scale will have wider fret spaces. The only guitar I have that is that big is the old Sobrinos de Esteso, 670, you capo up high and it is very easy to finger as normal. As if the guitars were designed for cante accompaniment or something???

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2023 11:47:21
 
Stu

Posts: 2618
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Scale length (in reply to orsonw

Yes ok. So the only real reason that shorter scale length is bad is when you may have to accompany up past 7th/8th fret?

I see why it's problematic then but how many of us are doing that regularly? Even the pros? Seems like the stories here of that, are remarkable cos they are rare?

Anyways
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2023 11:52:32
 
orsonw

Posts: 1958
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Scale length (in reply to Stu

quote:

I see why it's problematic then but how many of us are doing that regularly? Even the pros? Seems like the stories here of that, are remarkable cos they are rare?


It's not that rare. I'm no pro and I have had to accompany at 7,8, several times. I can understand if a dancer or singer wants the por arriba feeling rather than por medio e.g. por solea.
Sure, if not accompanying then cejilla is not an issue. But Morante stated "Short scale flamenco guitars are not a good idea." And when he says flamenco I presume he means flamenco i.e. cante.

For me I prefer a longer scale even without considering the cejilla issue. People talk about how this can effect sound/right hand feel etc... but then it will be a 'food fight' because none of this is absolute and it's difficult to be objective.

Maybe if we throw a bun at Estebanana he will fight back. On his website he writes:

"I like to make long scale, 655 mm to 665 mm, flamenco guitars, but I can certainly work for the player who wants a shorter scale by making the Alameda model as a flamenco guitar with a shorter scale. I’ve made some very nice shorter scale guitars, including the 645 mm scale flamenco that famed guitarist David Serva now plays."
https://stephenfaulkguitars.com/2021/guitar/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2023 12:40:16
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14995
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Scale length (in reply to Stu

quote:


I see why it's problematic then but how many of us are doing that regularly? Even the pros? Seems like the stories here of that, are remarkable cos they are rare?


In all honesty it is an excuse either way. I tell long scale complainers to pick up a bass guitar and try some scales for a few minutes then return to guitar. Short scale complainers I say the same but pick up a ukulele for a few minutes. Suddenly the guitar feels just fine no matter what your complaining is. It is like in baseball when you swing two bats for several minutes to warm up to the the plate. It is a psychological trick that really works.

I can admit I have played Solea thousands of more times at capo 7 than below it. The worst is when in rehearsal the singer sings lower than in the show, and you have worked out fingers at capo 6, then suddenly they want 7 on stage. Be prepared is my advice to all players. I actually witnessed a fight between two gitanos over this issue during sound check. The singer no longer felt comfortable low after several rehearsals, then wanted higher for the actual show (revealed by the sound check). The guitarist (I was second guitar in this one) said he had worked his falsetas a fret lower and it was too late to change all the music day of the show. Gypsy language even was used and a lot of yelling, and they stopped talking to each other for some years because of this.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2023 13:35:58
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1641
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Scale length (in reply to Morante

Anyone able to press down and play all E notes on guitar at the same time? If you can, let me know. Who knows maybe over 190cm tall guys can do it.

Low and high E are played open.
The first finger on 4th string 2nd fret
The second finger on 2nd string 5th fret
The third finger on 5th string 7th fret
The fourth finger on 3rd string 9th fret

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 11 2023 15:27:31
 
RobF

Posts: 1618
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Scale length (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

Anyone able to press down and play all E notes on guitar at the same time?




Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 12 2023 8:28:00
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14995
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Scale length (in reply to RobF

E7

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 12 2023 11:27:32
 
Stu

Posts: 2618
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Scale length (in reply to RobF

Looks like a young bill hicks.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 12 2023 18:39:22
 
silddx

Posts: 606
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Scale length (in reply to RobF

quote:






Hurry up, this is killing me, take the f**kin picture!!



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Attachment (1)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 12 2023 20:07:27
 
estebanana

Posts: 9396
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Scale length (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

Anyone able to press down and play all E notes on guitar at the same time? If you can, let me know. Who knows maybe over 190cm tall guys can do it.

Low and high E are played open.
The first finger on 4th string 2nd fret
The second finger on 2nd string 5th fret
The third finger on 5th string 7th fret
The fourth finger on 3rd string 9th fret



Did mean girls beat you up a lot in school?

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2023 3:37:36
 
silddx

Posts: 606
Joined: May 8 2012
From: London

RE: Scale length (in reply to estebanana

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2023 7:30:59
 
rombsix

Posts: 7853
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Scale length (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

The guitarist (I was second guitar in this one) said he had worked his falsetas a fret lower and it was too late to change all the music day of the show. Gypsy language even was used and a lot of yelling, and they stopped talking to each other for some years because of this.




_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2023 14:05:45
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14995
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Scale length (in reply to rombsix

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

quote:

The guitarist (I was second guitar in this one) said he had worked his falsetas a fret lower and it was too late to change all the music day of the show. Gypsy language even was used and a lot of yelling, and they stopped talking to each other for some years because of this.





The details are even funnier. The end of the argument came when the other guitarist pointed out I was playing in a different tonality, and because I did not use a capo to match the key, I would have to retune my guitar in the middle of the show. The singer was baffled by this, as the Guitarist was utilizing the singer’s ignorance of guitar mechanics and music transposition to put it to bed. However, the singer was very skeptical because the other guy was playing in capo 3 D# phrygian. I had worked out my own accompaniment to his part with my own harmonies and counter themes/chords etc, in open position Taranta (F#). The singer wanted a HIGHER pitch to sing, rendering the D# capo 3 guitar to run out of fret room up high. So the singer was thinking, why would Ricardo need to retune, couldn’t he just put on a capo to increase the pitch as any traditional guitarist would?? So in the dressing room the singer confronted me in private: “is what he saying true compadre? You can’t play in a higher pitch without retune?”….and there I was stuck in the middle of the politics. But I refuse to be a liar, so I said “I can use a capo but HE won’t be able to play his part, he would have to re work it to a different tonality”…

The thing is, the singer actually preferred what I was playing as it sounded more “traditional” anyway, and whatever the lead guitar was doing sounded like “Jax fusion de mierda!” . We stuck to the program in the end. I have a funnier story where a cantaora could not handle singing two different cantes (Guajiras and a buleria in major like Pajarerro etc, cuz she had no other fast ending prepared for Guajiras) in the same key….unhappy with either 3 or 4 por medio (La mayor) for one cante or the other. After several tries she insisted that I change keys at the end….but it is in the middle of heavy footwork where I am driving hard compas. So the only way I could achieve such a thing was with two capos, so that I could flick one Dunlop style capo off after the llamada. It was so bizarre sounding and everybody was rolling their eyes, but I had no choice.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2023 15:22:14
 
JasonM

Posts: 2082
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Scale length (in reply to Morante



I’m still not completely convinced. Need to do a blind study!

I’ve always felt it easier to play a Les Paul vs a Strat before I knew what scale length even was
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2023 19:46:20
 
ernandez R

Posts: 759
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Scale length (in reply to Ricardo

“Jax fusion de mierda“

****, in my next life I so want this to be my Foro user name!

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 13 2023 21:43:53
 
estebanana

Posts: 9396
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Scale length (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

quote:

The guitarist (I was second guitar in this one) said he had worked his falsetas a fret lower and it was too late to change all the music day of the show. Gypsy language even was used and a lot of yelling, and they stopped talking to each other for some years because of this.





The details are even funnier. The end of the argument came when the other guitarist pointed out I was playing in a different tonality, and because I did not use a capo to match the key, I would have to retune my guitar in the middle of the show. The singer was baffled by this, as the Guitarist was utilizing the singer’s ignorance of guitar mechanics and music transposition to put it to bed. However, the singer was very skeptical because the other guy was playing in capo 3 D# phrygian. I had worked out my own accompaniment to his part with my own harmonies and counter themes/chords etc, in open position Taranta (F#). The singer wanted a HIGHER pitch to sing, rendering the D# capo 3 guitar to run out of fret room up high. So the singer was thinking, why would Ricardo need to retune, couldn’t he just put on a capo to increase the pitch as any traditional guitarist would?? So in the dressing room the singer confronted me in private: “is what he saying true compadre? You can’t play in a higher pitch without retune?”….and there I was stuck in the middle of the politics. But I refuse to be a liar, so I said “I can use a capo but HE won’t be able to play his part, he would have to re work it to a different tonality”…

The thing is, the singer actually preferred what I was playing as it sounded more “traditional” anyway, and whatever the lead guitar was doing sounded like “Jax fusion de mierda!” . We stuck to the program in the end. I have a funnier story where a cantaora could not handle singing two different cantes (Guajiras and a buleria in major like Pajarerro etc, cuz she had no other fast ending prepared for Guajiras) in the same key….unhappy with either 3 or 4 por medio (La mayor) for one cante or the other. After several tries she insisted that I change keys at the end….but it is in the middle of heavy footwork where I am driving hard compas. So the only way I could achieve such a thing was with two capos, so that I could flick one Dunlop style capo off after the llamada. It was so bizarre sounding and everybody was rolling their eyes, but I had no choice.



There was the fellow Chris Cairns ( correct?) he was in Moron in the 60’s and made recordings that are famous among Moronies- he was known as Chris Dos Santos - because he owned two Santos guitars. Now we have ‘Ricardo Dos Cejillas de la Jax mierda’

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2023 9:55:04
 
oldskoolfool

 

Posts: 12
Joined: Nov. 15 2012
 

RE: Scale length (in reply to Morante

I thought that the longer scale would be harder to play but it doesn't. I just bought a Jeronimo Perez which is 670 and is easiest guitar I have played yet.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 14 2023 23:35:19
 
estebanana

Posts: 9396
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Scale length (in reply to oldskoolfool

quote:

ORIGINAL: oldskoolfool

I thought that the longer scale would be harder to play but it doesn't. I just bought a Jeronimo Perez which is 670 and is easiest guitar I have played yet.



Welcome to the long penis club!

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 15 2023 1:33:38
 
oldskoolfool

 

Posts: 12
Joined: Nov. 15 2012
 

RE: Scale length (in reply to estebanana

Thanks!! But I've been a member since I hit puberty.;;
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 15 2023 3:29:17
 
rombsix

Posts: 7853
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Scale length (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

The details are even funnier. The end of the argument came when the other guitarist pointed out I was playing in a different tonality, and because I did not use a capo to match the key, I would have to retune my guitar in the middle of the show. The singer was baffled by this, as the Guitarist was utilizing the singer’s ignorance of guitar mechanics and music transposition to put it to bed. However, the singer was very skeptical because the other guy was playing in capo 3 D# phrygian. I had worked out my own accompaniment to his part with my own harmonies and counter themes/chords etc, in open position Taranta (F#). The singer wanted a HIGHER pitch to sing, rendering the D# capo 3 guitar to run out of fret room up high. So the singer was thinking, why would Ricardo need to retune, couldn’t he just put on a capo to increase the pitch as any traditional guitarist would?? So in the dressing room the singer confronted me in private: “is what he saying true compadre? You can’t play in a higher pitch without retune?”….and there I was stuck in the middle of the politics. But I refuse to be a liar, so I said “I can use a capo but HE won’t be able to play his part, he would have to re work it to a different tonality”…

The thing is, the singer actually preferred what I was playing as it sounded more “traditional” anyway, and whatever the lead guitar was doing sounded like “Jax fusion de mierda!” . We stuck to the program in the end. I have a funnier story where a cantaora could not handle singing two different cantes (Guajiras and a buleria in major like Pajarerro etc, cuz she had no other fast ending prepared for Guajiras) in the same key….unhappy with either 3 or 4 por medio (La mayor) for one cante or the other. After several tries she insisted that I change keys at the end….but it is in the middle of heavy footwork where I am driving hard compas. So the only way I could achieve such a thing was with two capos, so that I could flick one Dunlop style capo off after the llamada. It was so bizarre sounding and everybody was rolling their eyes, but I had no choice.


You're a very patient man, Ricardo.

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 15 2023 5:10:13
 
orsonw

Posts: 1958
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Scale length (in reply to oldskoolfool

quote:

ORIGINAL: oldskoolfool

I thought that the longer scale would be harder to play but it doesn't. I just bought a Jeronimo Perez which is 670 and is easiest guitar I have played yet.


What year is it? It seems he used to make more 670 scale in the past. These days 655 seems more common, maybe he still occasionally builds a longer scale.

Apparently Miguel Salado gave feedback and helped Jeronimo Perez develop in his earlier days and encouraged a longer scale. Now Perez guitars are going to higher end dealers, perhaps they have encouraged a shorter scale for that market?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 15 2023 11:04:15
 
Morante

 

Posts: 2216
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Scale length (in reply to orsonw

quote:


Apparently Miguel Salado gave feedback and helped Jeronimo Perez develop in his earlier days and encouraged a longer scale.


I helped Jero long before Miguel and he was influenced by my Gerundino. I played dozens of his early guitars. His mother is cousin of my wife
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 15 2023 16:25:34
 
orsonw

Posts: 1958
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Scale length (in reply to Morante

quote:


I helped Jero long before Miguel and he was influenced by my Gerundino. I played dozens of his early guitars. His mother is cousin of my wife


Thanks for posting. I had read your previous posts about your family connection but didn't know so much about the guitar building influence. And now he is well on the path to being a top guitar maker!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 15 2023 17:39:49
 
oldskoolfool

 

Posts: 12
Joined: Nov. 15 2012
 

RE: Scale length (in reply to Morante

quote:

What year is it? It seems he used to make more 670 scale in the past. These days 655 seems more common, maybe he still occasionally builds a longer scale.

Apparently Miguel Salado gave feedback and helped Jeronimo Perez develop in his earlier days and encouraged a longer scale. Now Perez guitars are going to higher end dealers, perhaps they have encouraged a shorter scale for that market?


Yeah...My bad. The 2022 Jeronimo Perez is actually 655!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 15 2023 21:23:15
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1641
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Scale length (in reply to RobF

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobF

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

Anyone able to press down and play all E notes on guitar at the same time?




Wow. He almost got it.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2023 0:02:15
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