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New Kiridashi (knife)
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RobF
Posts: 1624
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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 RE: New Kiridashi (knife) (in reply to JasonM)
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Mad-Inter used to sell those Japanese knives for pretty cheap and they’re all over the place in luthier workshops. A lot of luthiers seem to like the Japanese chisels and knives, which says something about the general level of intelligence of the average luthier. I think it’s just a fad, they aren’t that useful, you have to learn to work around their fundamental flaws. Eventually people will figure it out. I find the traditional Frost/Mora laminated blades far more useful, but to each their own.
The pro side of the Japanese blades is they are easy to sharpen and can have great steel. Downside is the steel can be chippy, the straight cut of the blade is awkward to use on the curves of a neck and, and while the right hand blade is commonly available, the left isn’t and you really need both left and right hand versions to be effective.
A lot of the Japanese style chisels are totally stupid for lutherie, too. But they make for great promo shots. Nothing beats a shot of the serious luthier sighting down a brace whilst holding one of his sexy Japanese chisels like it’s some kind of expensive pool cue. If the luthier is female it works even better if the shot is taken while she kneels on the bench straddling the workpiece with her ass sticking up in the air. Helps if the jeans are tight. Very arty. Rather erotic. Appeals to both the serious dilettante as well as the rest of us horny bohunks. Sells guitars, too. I’ll be right back…
That long bladed one shown in the OP looks ridiculous for lutherie and is strictly for poseurs. I had one kicking around somewhere but I just looked all over and couldn’t find it. Maybe I gave it away, but I can’t really see doing that to anyone I like. I have a few of the shorter ones laying about but stopped using them for general work ages ago. I suppose they have their place, I have a place in a drawer for them. Now and again I’ll pull one out so I can feel like I know what I’m doing, then it goes back in the drawer when I reach for a Frosts so I can get on with doing the job right.
But again, to each their own. Reminds me I’ve got to make lunch.
P.S. seriously, though, you can easily make a mess of yourself with that knife (or maybe of me). Either that or badly scratch a side one day while carving the heel. Do that once (in my case, way more than once) and you’ll start to look at them in a new light. Anders had the right idea, he used the Swedish style and I suspect it wasn’t for lack of availability of the Japanese variants.
P.P.S. This interruption was a public service announcement. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming of talking about food. Which is probably what that long bladed knife is good for. Filleting fish. Yummy.
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Date Apr. 6 2023 18:27:54
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RobF
Posts: 1624
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: New Kiridashi (knife) (in reply to Stephen Eden)
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Hi Stephen, I learned on Japanese tools, too. None of my Japanese stuff is cheap or imitation, either, a lot of it was bought directly from Japan. Some of my chisels have become quite expensive and desirable items since the time when I bought them. The brittleness may be one thing, but it’s the shapes that made me move away from using them.
My biggest beef is with those knives. I used them for a long time, then started using the Swedish knives and it was a revelation. Just worked so much better for me. I find the same with the chisels, it’s just easier to register the regular full bar ones than the Japanese style. For me. Plus, I also think the shape of the heel on the Spanish guitar evolved directly from how the tools were used. A lot of the Japanese makers I personally know don’t build in the Spanish style and tend to carve the necks off the guitar. They often use rasps, where I would use a knife, and the way the knife is used, at least comparing the styles of the people whom I know compared to my style, is totally different. But I didn’t get this from either of my teachers, as they were both suckers for the Japanese chisels, I came to it on my own, so you’re right, it does come down to personal preference.
My beef with the knife in question on this thread is it’s too pointy and it’s too long. It may be fine for an experienced maker to pick up and give a whirl to, but an inexperienced maker is probably going to cut themselves or the guitar, likely both. I wasn’t joking when I said I have one like that, and yep, I cut myself every bloody time I used it. You’d think I’d learn after the first time.
But yeah, I’m a tool addict and have way more of this stuff than I need. I have a lot of affection for the Japanese tools. At this point, however, a set of unbevelled bench chisels and a couple of Frosts laminated 2-3 inchers is good enough for me. Although I love looking at the other stuff, too, lol, and if I’m going to be completely honest, there are specific tasks where I’ll almost always reach for a Japanese chisel. But, for general bench use, it’s western style all the way.
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Date Apr. 6 2023 21:13:30
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ernandez R
Posts: 766
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA
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RE: New Kiridashi (knife) (in reply to RobF)
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Rob,
How about a photo of your blades?
I have to confess I’m not a knife user myself but rather a rasp, file, and dust maker. Please don’t kick me out of the Foro for being such a hedenist 😈
That being said I had a need for a knife as I was dealing with the bottom transition of the neck headstock, spalted birch and hickory and found a need. I just took a thick bladed steak knife cut two thirds off the blade and shaped with a curve and double bevel, sharpened up to 600g wet/dry paper, and got with it. Worked better then I thought it should.
HR
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_____________________________
I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
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Date Apr. 7 2023 2:30:40
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estebanana
Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: New Kiridashi (knife) (in reply to RobF)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RobF
I was more talking about the medieval instrument of death you were waving around at the beginning of the thread. I have a couple of the ones that are like what you just showed and I used them for the longest time. But then, on a whim, I started using my Mora bench knife and loved it, so I picked up a set of different ones to keep for carving. I still use the shorter bladed Japanese ones on occasion, but generally I stick to the Frosts.
Just like the left handed kiridashi, the laminated Frost knives have been harder to come by in my neck of the woods and have jumped a lot in price. But, it’s all good. They all can do the job. I’m glad we have so much variety to choose from. I just really like the Frosts.
I told you it’s a bamboo knife, a farmers tool and today used a craft tool. Farmers make them in the farmhouse workshop with scrap steel, or you can buy one from a knife company.
I’m going to use it on carving heels because I like the long narrow blade for the inside curves.
And just so you know, all the Swedish blade shapes are also Japanese shapes, they have the same wood carving blades that those European knife makers use.
One more thing, do not ever bring up any reference to seppuku with me. It’s really a bad subject to bring up because A. It’s a stereotype of Japanese people and culture- and B. It’s horrific.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Apr. 7 2023 5:25:46
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RobF
Posts: 1624
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: New Kiridashi (knife) (in reply to estebanana)
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Man, you’re sensitive. It’s all fine and dandy for you to jump on other’s threads and totally trash them and, by inference, the people participating in them, but let anyone dare step on your delicate toes and all hell breaks loose. And don’t go putting your phoney outrage on me. I have no idea what you’re talking about with this seppiku stuff and intended no insult to any culture. You want to tilt at windmills, that’s your problem.
*edit* at any rate, I apologize for participating in this thread, and also to you, because if I’m going to be truly honest with myself, this whole exercise was pointless and I was kinda baiting you, I guess, I mean, maybe a little. You can hold whatever feelings towards me you want, man, I’m just tired of all the negativity and discourtesy in this place recently and I have a misguided habit of using poor attempts at humour to alleviate the stress. I bear you no ill will and I’ll stay out of your way in the future. Hopefully you’ll extend the same courtesy and stay out of mine.
Peace out.
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Date Apr. 7 2023 5:41:44
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estebanana
Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: New Kiridashi (knife) (in reply to RobF)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RobF
Man, you’re sensitive. It’s all fine and dandy for you to jump on other’s threads and totally trash them and, by inference, the people participating in them, but let anyone dare step on your delicate toes and all hell breaks loose. And don’t go putting your phoney outrage on me. I have no idea what you’re talking about with this seppiku stuff and intended no insult to any culture. You want to tilt at windmills, that’s your problem.
*edit* at any rate, I apologize for participating in this thread, and also to you, because if I’m going to be truly honest with myself, this whole exercise was pointless and I was kinda baiting you, I guess, I mean, maybe a little. You can hold whatever feelings towards me you want, man, I’m just tired of all the negativity and discourtesy in this place recently and I have a misguided habit of using poor attempts at humour to alleviate the stress. I bear you no ill will and I’ll stay out of your way in the future. Hopefully you’ll extend the same courtesy and stay out of mine.
Peace out.
I started this thread without putting any sauce on it, and if you tease a bull in it’s yard and all that…
You really jumped on Eden about his knife and I didn’t like that because he’s the most mild mannered guy. I by chance use the same knife for cutting necks.
The point is seeing tools helps people get an idea of which questions to ask, because they have an object to wonder about; how does the guitar maker use that and why. Then a conversation can happen because the people showing their tools have reasons for choosing them based in the way they work. So if the guitar makers show the tools of the trade then there’s a context for a discussion that everyone can participate in. The makers can explain why they use them and the aspiring makers or just interested readers can read for fun.
The other model for discourse is for one person to talk about their copies of a famous guitar makers guitars for ten years while it frustrates everybody else who could actually teach or discuss the fundamentals. We could go back to that… but from here in out I’m going to post interesting stuff from other angles, and if someone wants to put sauce on it, they’ll get sauce back.
Guasa is guasa, knives are knives. A guy complaining that we’re strange and discouraging to newcomers? Ok, there are 20 guitar forums in play right now in the world, this just happens to be the one that doesn’t coddle newcomers. Try a different guitar forum. Every forum has a different heat level, maybe the salsa is too hot here, that’s just the way it is.
This is small foro it’s always had an off kilter culture whether I’m involved or not. I can leave for a year or two at a time and nothing changes.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Apr. 7 2023 6:53:35
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RobF
Posts: 1624
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: New Kiridashi (knife) (in reply to estebanana)
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OK, I want to clear the air.
quote:
You really jumped on Eden about his knife and I didn’t like that because he’s the most mild mannered guy. I by chance use the same knife for cutting necks.
This one I regret because I had no intention of dumping on Stephen. I have huge respect for him, he’s a great guy and an awesome builder. Maybe the flippancy of my first post set the tone and my response to him sounded off, which I guess might be understandable, but with that context taken away, I wasn’t trying to be salty with Stephen. Shout out to Stephen Eden, no offence intended. You’re a legend, I mean it.
quote:
The point is seeing tools helps people get an idea of which questions to ask, because they have an object to wonder about; how does the guitar maker use that and why. Then a conversation can happen because the people showing their tools have reasons for choosing them based in the way they work. So if the guitar makers show the tools of the trade then there’s a context for a discussion that everyone can participate in. The makers can explain why they use them and the aspiring makers or just interested readers can read for fun.
Which is one of the reasons I made my tongue in cheek rant about the first knife. I have used an identical one and the problem with it when used for heel carving, at least I found, was the tendency to choke up on the blade for detail work, mainly to avoid the problems brought into play by its length, and then slicing into the pad of your index or next finger between the two knuckles. It’s a real danger. I’m not saying you’re going to cut yourself, you’re good enough not to, but a lot of new makers setting up their shops might not realize it, and the cuts that can happen can be significant. I’ll make a wager… if you use that blade for heel carving and walk away unscathed after, say two necks, I’ll pay for the thing. Well, up to $10. Canadian. But, you’ll have to be honest and tell us if you cut yourself. There’s no shame in it. It’s gonna happen. Jinx jinx.
quote:
Guasa is guasa, knives are knives. A guy complaining that we’re strange and discouraging to newcomers? Ok, there are 20 guitar forums in play right now in the world, this just happens to be the one that doesn’t coddle newcomers. Try a different guitar forum. Every forum has a different heat level, maybe the salsa is too hot here, that’s just the way it is.
The person in question has been a member here for a few years now, not a new member. But, new or not, there’s no reason to belittle people or be discourteous to them. The question he asked was totally reasonable and it’s not a great reflection on the place to treat a basic question or its originator so dismissively. Problem here is it’s largely unmoderated, everyone is very grateful to Simon for keeping the place open, and we really have no right to expect more. But that doesn’t mean it should become some Wild West free-for-all. But if that’s what turns people on, then have at it.
quote:
This is small foro it’s always had an off kilter culture whether I’m involved or not. I can leave for a year or two at a time and nothing changes.
Thing is, and you should know this, I admire your work, not just the guitars, but also your sculpture and art. But, respect has to flow both ways, not just for me, but for all the members here. This shouldn’t be a kiss up kick down kind of place. That only works for the very few, and if it keeps up pretty soon the place truly will lose relevance. I’m not trying to put you down, but when you push the quieter members around it’s not a good look. I also am pretty sure it’s not even an accurate look, as we’ve had great conversations in the past, so I feel I know this. Any rate, I don’t want fights and I accept the responsibility that I’ve pretty well been the instigator of this one, so truly and sincerely, I apologize.
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Date Apr. 7 2023 7:50:19
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estebanana
Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: New Kiridashi (knife) (in reply to RobF)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RobF
OK, I want to clear the air.
quote:
You really jumped on Eden about his knife and I didn’t like that because he’s the most mild mannered guy. I by chance use the same knife for cutting necks.
This one I regret because I had no intention of dumping on Stephen. I have huge respect for him, he’s an awesome guy and an awesome builder. Maybe the flippancy of my first post set the tone and my response to him sounded off, which I guess might be understandable, but with that context taken away, I wasn’t trying to be salty with Stephen. Shout out to Stephen Eden, no offence intended.
quote:
The point is seeing tools helps people get an idea of which questions to ask, because they have an object to wonder about; how does the guitar maker use that and why. Then a conversation can happen because the people showing their tools have reasons for choosing them based in the way they work. So if the guitar makers show the tools of the trade then there’s a context for a discussion that everyone can participate in. The makers can explain why they use them and the aspiring makers or just interested readers can read for fun.
Which is one of the reasons I made my tongue in check rant about the first knife. I have used an identical one and the problem with it when used for heel carving, at least I found, was the tendency to choke up on the blade for detail work, mainly to avoid the problems brought into play by its length, and then slicing into the pad of your index or other fingers between the two knuckles. It’s a real danger. I’m not saying you’re going to cut yourself, you’re good enough not to, but a lot of new makers setting up their shops might not realize it, and the cuts that can happen can be significant. I’ll make a wager… if you use that blade for heel carving and walk away unscathed after, say two necks, I’ll pay for the thing. Well, up to $10. Canadian. You have to be honest and tell us if you cut yourself. There’s no shame in it. It’s gonna happen. Jinx jinx.
quote:
Guasa is guasa, knives are knives. A guy complaining that we’re strange and discouraging to newcomers? Ok, there are 20 guitar forums in play right now in the world, this just happens to be the one that doesn’t coddle newcomers. Try a different guitar forum. Every forum has a different heat level, maybe the salsa is too hot here, that’s just the way it is.
The person in question has been a member here for a few years now, not a new member. But, new or not, there’s no reason to belittle people or be discourteous to them. The question he asked was totally reasonable and it’s not a great reflection on the place treat a basic question or their originator with such disdain. Problem here is it’s largely unmoderated, everyone is very grateful to Simon for keeping the place open. But that doesn’t mean it should become some Wild West free-for-all. But if that’s what turns people on, then have at it.
quote:
This is small foro it’s always had an off kilter culture whether I’m involved or not. I can leave for a year or two at a time and nothing changes.
Thing is, and you should know this, I admire your work, not just the guitars, but also your sculpture and art. But, respecta has to flow both ways, not just for me, but for all the members here. This can’t be a kiss up kick down kind of place. That only works for the very few, and if it keeps up pretty soon the place truly will lose relevance. I’m not trying to put you down, but when you push the quieter members around it’s not a good look. I also am pretty sure it’s not even an accurate look, we’ve had great conversations in the past, so I know this. Any rate, I don’t want fights and I accept the responsibility that I’ve pretty well been the instigator of this one, so truly and sincerely, I apologize
L’Affair Mango. That yellowish orange stain on my reputation.
The poster had been a member for several years, and they didn’t know what they were getting into?
And a few months ago the long con set up to make a big deal out of using the word ‘pulsation’ ? You know these things are BS and have nothing to do with guitar making.
It will all even out. I might dull the end of the pointy knife, because that’s not why I got it.
The next time I frighten a poor newbie, all you have to do is tell them I’m the group jerk and not to listen to me. You have to rescue them.
Let’s just have a group hug and go back to work you, big galute.
_____________________________
https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
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Date Apr. 7 2023 8:04:59
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