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Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3416
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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 RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (in reply to tradbeau)
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Is your uncle the author and historian of the Old West Jerry Lobdill?
I would be interested in knowing what is in his collection. What make are his flamenco guitars? I assume by record collection you mean long play vinyl. If he has records in good condition by some of the flamenco guitarists of earlier eras--Ramon Montoya, Nino Ricardo, and early recordings by Sabicas, among others for example--they would be sought after by aficionados. Could you list some of the flamenco artists on the records? Are you inclined to keep them together and sell them as a collection or separately? Depending on who they are, an interested buyer might prefer buying the lot as a collection. In any case, I would be interested in knowing more about it.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 27 2023 13:22:54
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RobF
Posts: 1425
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (in reply to tradbeau)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tradbeau
Hi Bill,
Yes my uncle is the author and historian you mentioned. His home is full of texts on the subject.
Guitars:
1. Jose Ramirez Clase 2a Flamenco Guitar 1972
2. Domingo Esteso Gravina, 7. Madrid Flamenco Guitar 1921
3. A guitar he made long ago
I'm pretty sure I'll find some of those flamenco guitarists in his collection. I will take a look and provide an abbreviated inventory, as there are so many. I'd love to sell them as a set if possible, but I'm not firm on that decision yet.
Beau
Hi Beau,
I’m sorry to hear about your uncle’s declining health.
It sounds like a very interesting collection and it would be great if you could post pictures of it on the Foro here. Because you have provenance it may be worthwhile to consider selling the collection as a set. If you have any signed copies of your uncle’s writing, the inclusion of one of his books could add value, as it speaks to the provenance.
In a case like this, it’s really advisable for you to solicit advice from a reputable firm, such as from Richard Brune’s shop in Chicago. An appraisal from them holds value, in itself, and due to the timeframe of the Esteso guitar, the collection may have significant value.
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Date Mar. 27 2023 19:11:45
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3323
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (in reply to tradbeau)
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Beau-
I'm sorry to say that the Ramirez is not a "2a." The 1a and 2a models were built in the Ramirez workshop by luthiers trained by Jose Ramirez III, with strict adherence to Ramirez's design. Each was personally inspected and signed by Ramirez himself. The distinction between 1a (primera) and 2a (segunda) was often merely a cosmetic defect in the uniformly high quality materials. The sound and playability of some 2a's might be a little better then some 1a's.
Heres a 2a label:
The sub-label "Segovia model" was applied by Ramirez's U.S. distributor, Jim Sherry. It purposely obscured the "1a" or "2a" hand written on the label, so Sherry could sell 2a's for the 1a price. It's one of the main reasons Ramirez fired Sherry. The red border on the 2a label was pale blue on the 1a label.
The guitar in the photo you show was made in a different shop, perhaps a small factory in Almeria. It was made according to Ramirez specifications, was looked over by someone in the Ramirez shop before being put out for sale, perhaps was set up in the Ramirez shop. Quality control was not as strict as for the in-house instruments, nor were the materials and workmanship as good.
Jerry would have picked out a good one, but the price you could get for it would not be any where near what a good 2a would bring.
The Esteso looks to be a less expensive model, perhaps with a rosewood fingerboard. Esteso and other Spanish makers produced instruments for various shops in Argentina. In the 1920s Argentina was one of the wealthiest countries in the world, and many fine Spanish guitars were sold there. This is not one of the finest. Get an expert opinion from one of the luthier/dealers I have recommended. They might be willing to give a preliminary range based on photos.Then you could decide whether to pay for an appraisal.
For an actual appraisal you would need to ship the instrument to the appraiser. He would need to have the instrument in his hands to determine its condition, sound and playability.
RNJ
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Date Mar. 28 2023 3:41:33
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3416
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (in reply to tradbeau)
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Beau,
Your uncle has a great collection of flamenco albums, some of which are real gems from an earlier era. He also has good taste, as I see he has many albums, many of them from much earlier, of Sabicas, who I consider to be the finest of many fine flamenco guitarists. You are on the right track in keeping his collection together. Someone who knows and loves flamenco and its history would love to have most, if not all, of the entire collection. And many of those albums would be very hard to find today, so I'm guessing they might bring a substantial amount of money. I am in no position to say how much, but you should have them appraised by someone who knows what he is doing.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 28 2023 12:38:38
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3416
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (in reply to BarkellWH)
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Beau,
Just as an aside, I have always enjoyed what used to be called "country and western" music, which today is just called "country." As your uncle was a writer and historian of the Old West, I'll bet he has some great albums by Marty Robbins who was from Phoenix, Arizona (where I was born and grew up) and who sang many western ballads. His two greatest albums, in my opinion, were from 1958-59 and were entitled "Gunfighter Ballads and Trail Songs" and "More Gunfighter Ballads and Trail Songs." The first had, among others, "El Paso." Really great stuff, and I'll bet your uncle loved it.
Hope the comments in response to your query help and that you are able to raise the money to help defray the cost of your uncle's care.
Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."
--Rudyard Kipling
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Date Mar. 28 2023 18:17:14
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tradbeau
Posts: 9
Joined: Mar. 25 2023
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RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (in reply to BarkellWH)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
Beau,
Just as an aside, I have always enjoyed what used to be called "country and western" music, which today is just called "country." As your uncle was a writer and historian of the Old West, I'll bet he has some great albums by Marty Robbins who was from Phoenix, Arizona (where I was born and grew up) and who sang many western ballads. His two greatest albums, in my opinion, were from 1958-59 and were entitled "Gunfighter Ballads and Trail Songs" and "More Gunfighter Ballads and Trail Songs." The first had, among others, "El Paso." Really great stuff, and I'll bet your uncle loved it.
Hope the comments in response to your query help and that you are able to raise the money to help defray the cost of your uncle's care.
Bill
He has another 100+ records that are classical guitar, country, folk, etc.
The comments have been great. I really appreciate everyone's input. Raising funds for his care is the goal.
Would I love it if his things went to people that would appreciate them or as a collection and make a decent amount?
Absolutely.
Do I want this to drag out and be greedy so I can squeeze every penny out of the opportunity?
Absolutely not.
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Date Mar. 29 2023 21:39:24
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RobF
Posts: 1425
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (in reply to tradbeau)
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Hi Beau,
I think it’s both reasonable and ethical to want to maximize the return while recognizing that there will likely be some trade-offs due to time constraints and other commitments. I also think bundling the records into thematic groups, as you’ve done, makes sense. That way, a reasonable total can be arrived at for each bundle, based on a single unit cost, for example $10-20 per piece, and then the bundles can be sold as lots. It’s important not to cull out the more desirable records to sell separately as they’ll provide the “pull”.
The guitars may be more economical models but they are still valuable. The Ramirez, if it plays well and is in good fettle, is still a nice old peg head Blanca. It has a traditional Ramirez rosette and if it sounds good (it almost certainly will) then it will be able to realize a worthwhile amount. I’m not sure if the receipt matches the guitar as it’s dated earlier than the date in the label. I don’t want to speculate on what would be a reasonable selling price although I wouldn’t even dream of letting it go for less than $3000.
The Esteso guitar is another matter altogether. The appraisals are close to fifty years old so really the only pertinent information on them is that two experts felt the guitar is genuine. They are still important as they are part of the guitar’s provenance, however. This stuff counts.
Esteso worked in the shop of Manuel Ramirez at the beginning of the last century. He, as well as other luthiers who worked alongside him in the Ramirez shop, is basically considered to be one the founding fathers of the modern flamenco guitar. Esteso left the Ramirez shop a few years before your guitar was made and established his own at Gravina 7 in Madrid.
Esteso is a hugely significant maker historically and any guitar that is of his hand is going to be highly desirable on the collector’s market. A quick check of recent sales of Esteso guitars from that period of time shows they tend to start in the neighbourhood of $10,000 and go up from there. It may turn out to be less, but don’t sell it short, that’s why an expert evaluation is important.
I don’t think you’ll have much difficulty selling the guitars and, now that vinyl records are back in fashion, I suspect selling the records in bulk lots won’t be too difficult, either. There are likely members here who would be very interested in acquiring the records. For the guitars, you will do best armed with the knowledge that can be provided by an expert evaluation. With that in hand, I think you’ll find they will both sell easily and at an amount that is fair to both the purchaser as well as to your uncle. I still think you might find the entire lot bundled together will give the best return for effort as it’s an attractive package. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are a couple of members here who would be interested in buying the whole kit and caboodle outright. It may be slightly discounted from selling them separately, but it would probably sell fast and, as your time itself has value, that could be a reasonable trade-off.
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Date Mar. 30 2023 0:02:26
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RobF
Posts: 1425
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
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RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (in reply to Ricardo)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ricardo
Expert opinion hardly matters in this case. What matters is what a buyer might want (the name on the label is important in other words). Just put on eBay, and people that want instruments with those names on the label will likely drive the price up as bidding continues. It is not that complex. If the guitars move at the old appraisal prices, then profit was made and goes to the cause. Likely the names on the labels will drive the price higher than those appraisals. In fact showing those photos might work in favor of the seller (included in the package) vs. a “buy it now” price tag. IMO.
The appraisals are almost fifty years old, lol.
I hear what you’re saying but we have to take into account what’s been going on in the collectable markets since the pandemic, and not just with guitars. Prices on select collectables have gone through the roof, not just due to the pandemic effect, but also from crypto money laundering coupled with the recent realization/trend that money can be “parked” in desirable objects. It’s no longer only a North American and European market, the big money players aren’t from there and couldn’t care less about the objects. But it does have significance to the prices being realized for the right collectable.
The numbers I floated were more of less pulled out of my hat, but I wanted to let Beau know both his items are very sellable and desirable because that’s why he reached out to us. That being said, I suspect both figures are probably low, or if not low, easily realized. Also, and I can’t speak for Beau’s situation, there are ethical and possibly legal obligations or guidelines to consider when disposing of someone else’s property. Getting an expert evaluation, in that regard, is not only the responsible way to proceed for his uncle’s benefit, but is also possibly significant for his own protection.
I’m not sure what ‘factories’ existed back then, save to say the Esteso guitar comes from an era where the widespread adoption of the Torres models had only been recently established by Manuel Ramirez. I can’t speculate on any of that, my gut suggests it came from his workshop, but it’s beyond my level and I simply don’t know. Maybe Echi can weigh in because he likely could add a lot to the discussion.
But, it is well known and documented that Esteso, along with other Spanish makers, supplied guitars to Romero y Fernandez. It’s also known that even then makers provided (and made) different grades of instruments. Why would it be any different from today, where many makers have student or budget variations of their models? It was also probably standard for a supplier/importer to order a range of instrument grades. Again, I don’t know, but it’s not out the the realm of possibility that Esteso made the guitar. I am certain this question could easily be answered by a number of experts.
Regardless, a playable guitar from the shop of one of the most significant makers of the past century has value. I wouldn’t sell either of those guitars short. Putting them up with starting prices based on appraisals from 1976 would be, I mean I don’t even know what to say, maybe that’s not what you’re suggesting. $1500 in 1976 could buy a lot of guitar.
*edit* just an aside, completely unrelated to selling stuff….Just look at the plantilla on the Esteso. It’s freaking gorgeous. Also, look at how the head is blended into the neck, then go look at modern Condes. The rosette might let it down compared to more expensive models, but look inside at the woodwork, it’s all proper. It may be an economical model but there’s a lot to appreciate there. The Ramirez is quite pretty, too.
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Date Mar. 31 2023 20:01:52
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