Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Full Version)

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tradbeau -> Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 27 2023 0:53:48)

Hello Everyone,

My uncle, Jerry Lobdill, is an avid Flamenco guitar player, but his mental and physical health are rapidly declining. We are hoping to raise some money for his care. Does anyone here know him or have advice on how to find out the value of his Flamenco guitars and record collection?

Thanks,

Beau




Richard Jernigan -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 27 2023 5:30:16)

Check your inbox.

Richard Jernigan




BarkellWH -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 27 2023 13:22:54)

Is your uncle the author and historian of the Old West Jerry Lobdill?

I would be interested in knowing what is in his collection. What make are his flamenco guitars? I assume by record collection you mean long play vinyl. If he has records in good condition by some of the flamenco guitarists of earlier eras--Ramon Montoya, Nino Ricardo, and early recordings by Sabicas, among others for example--they would be sought after by aficionados. Could you list some of the flamenco artists on the records? Are you inclined to keep them together and sell them as a collection or separately? Depending on who they are, an interested buyer might prefer buying the lot as a collection. In any case, I would be interested in knowing more about it.

Bill




tradbeau -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 27 2023 18:23:21)

Hi Bill,

Yes my uncle is the author and historian you mentioned. His home is full of texts on the subject.

Guitars:
1. Jose Ramirez Clase 2a Flamenco Guitar 1972
2. Domingo Esteso Gravina, 7. Madrid Flamenco Guitar 1921
3. A guitar he made long ago

I'm pretty sure I'll find some of those flamenco guitarists in his collection. I will take a look and provide an abbreviated inventory, as there are so many. I'd love to sell them as a set if possible, but I'm not firm on that decision yet.

Beau




RobF -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 27 2023 19:11:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tradbeau

Hi Bill,

Yes my uncle is the author and historian you mentioned. His home is full of texts on the subject.

Guitars:
1. Jose Ramirez Clase 2a Flamenco Guitar 1972
2. Domingo Esteso Gravina, 7. Madrid Flamenco Guitar 1921
3. A guitar he made long ago

I'm pretty sure I'll find some of those flamenco guitarists in his collection. I will take a look and provide an abbreviated inventory, as there are so many. I'd love to sell them as a set if possible, but I'm not firm on that decision yet.

Beau


Hi Beau,

I’m sorry to hear about your uncle’s declining health.

It sounds like a very interesting collection and it would be great if you could post pictures of it on the Foro here. Because you have provenance it may be worthwhile to consider selling the collection as a set. If you have any signed copies of your uncle’s writing, the inclusion of one of his books could add value, as it speaks to the provenance.

In a case like this, it’s really advisable for you to solicit advice from a reputable firm, such as from Richard Brune’s shop in Chicago. An appraisal from them holds value, in itself, and due to the timeframe of the Esteso guitar, the collection may have significant value.




tradbeau -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 28 2023 2:41:10)

Here are some pictures of the Domingo Esteso.









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tradbeau -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 28 2023 2:44:58)

Here are pictures of the Jose Ramirez. This is the guitar we saw him playing the most in recent years.









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Richard Jernigan -> [Deleted] (Mar. 28 2023 3:33:31)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Mar. 28 2023 3:34:47




tradbeau -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 28 2023 3:41:09)

Here is a second appraisal on the Estoso I found.

Beau



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Richard Jernigan -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 28 2023 3:41:33)

Beau-

I'm sorry to say that the Ramirez is not a "2a." The 1a and 2a models were built in the Ramirez workshop by luthiers trained by Jose Ramirez III, with strict adherence to Ramirez's design. Each was personally inspected and signed by Ramirez himself. The distinction between 1a (primera) and 2a (segunda) was often merely a cosmetic defect in the uniformly high quality materials. The sound and playability of some 2a's might be a little better then some 1a's.

Heres a 2a label:



The sub-label "Segovia model" was applied by Ramirez's U.S. distributor, Jim Sherry. It purposely obscured the "1a" or "2a" hand written on the label, so Sherry could sell 2a's for the 1a price. It's one of the main reasons Ramirez fired Sherry. The red border on the 2a label was pale blue on the 1a label.

The guitar in the photo you show was made in a different shop, perhaps a small factory in Almeria. It was made according to Ramirez specifications, was looked over by someone in the Ramirez shop before being put out for sale, perhaps was set up in the Ramirez shop. Quality control was not as strict as for the in-house instruments, nor were the materials and workmanship as good.

Jerry would have picked out a good one, but the price you could get for it would not be any where near what a good 2a would bring.

The Esteso looks to be a less expensive model, perhaps with a rosewood fingerboard. Esteso and other Spanish makers produced instruments for various shops in Argentina. In the 1920s Argentina was one of the wealthiest countries in the world, and many fine Spanish guitars were sold there. This is not one of the finest. Get an expert opinion from one of the luthier/dealers I have recommended. They might be willing to give a preliminary range based on photos.Then you could decide whether to pay for an appraisal.

For an actual appraisal you would need to ship the instrument to the appraiser. He would need to have the instrument in his hands to determine its condition, sound and playability.

RNJ

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tradbeau -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 28 2023 4:14:15)

Thanks Richard,

This is helpful. I don't know what I don't know.

Regards,

Beau




tradbeau -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 28 2023 4:28:04)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

Is your uncle the author and historian of the Old West Jerry Lobdill?

I would be interested in knowing what is in his collection. What make are his flamenco guitars? I assume by record collection you mean long play vinyl. If he has records in good condition by some of the flamenco guitarists of earlier eras--Ramon Montoya, Nino Ricardo, and early recordings by Sabicas, among others for example--they would be sought after by aficionados. Could you list some of the flamenco artists on the records? Are you inclined to keep them together and sell them as a collection or separately? Depending on who they are, an interested buyer might prefer buying the lot as a collection. In any case, I would be interested in knowing more about it.

Bill


There are albums from Sabicas, Ramon Montoya, Carlos Montoya, Nino Ricardo and Paco De Lucia among others.

Here is a link to photos of the majority: https://photos.app.goo.gl/f2ak3WZ8xribt3Zc8




Stu -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 28 2023 8:04:45)

Hi there sorry to hear about your uncles health. Hopefully you can raise soem of the funds you need.

I am not in the market but I loved looking through that record collection pictures! some real classics in there.

best of luck




estebanana -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 28 2023 10:47:48)

That’s really in this day quite a stunning collection of flamenco albums from a certain time period. If I were a collector I’d like to have the whole thing. There are about five to eight records I wouldn’t associate with the rest of the collection, but overall it’s a good representation of Sabicas. A few gems. And a good Fado record.

If you need some help understanding the records I’m sure the resources of those here and some contacts I have in California could give good information.

I’ve owned a good number of those LPs myself.

More later




Ricardo -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 28 2023 12:32:21)

I have a lot of the guitar vinyl. If you don’t unload the entire set and end up having to let it go by pieces, I would be interested in the History of Cante (Caracol) and a few others.




BarkellWH -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 28 2023 12:38:38)

Beau,

Your uncle has a great collection of flamenco albums, some of which are real gems from an earlier era. He also has good taste, as I see he has many albums, many of them from much earlier, of Sabicas, who I consider to be the finest of many fine flamenco guitarists. You are on the right track in keeping his collection together. Someone who knows and loves flamenco and its history would love to have most, if not all, of the entire collection. And many of those albums would be very hard to find today, so I'm guessing they might bring a substantial amount of money. I am in no position to say how much, but you should have them appraised by someone who knows what he is doing.

Bill




estebanana -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 28 2023 13:04:53)

The Caracol caught my eye too. It’s a nice collection. It’s a niche market, but I know recordings like this regularly go for upwards of 35 dollars each at Amoeba Records in Berkeley, or higher depending- however a record seller won’t buy them for top dollar.

I was there in December and some jazz records were going for 50 to 160 bucks

You might want to call the record buyer and just ask if they’ll talk over the phone or search on a record collector forum for some good advice. Flamenco knowledge and vintage records are really two separate disciplines.

I wish you the best at getting what they are worth on the collectors market.




Auda -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 28 2023 15:00:47)

I am interested in the Ramirez guitar. I'm not sure what the fair market value is but have seen a 1967 Ramirez on offer for $1499.00 on craigslist last month but appeared to be from guitar shop. I did not respond right away because I was out of country and when I was able to, it was gone. Let me know if you get a fair market price.

I would be interested in what others think about this guitar too. My knowledge about what makes a good guitar is limited.

Cheers




Mark2 -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 28 2023 16:41:28)

Sorry to hear about Mr. Lobdill. I also have a lot of that vinyl. It's interesting the stuff we collect over a lifetime of aficion.




BarkellWH -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 28 2023 18:17:14)

Beau,

Just as an aside, I have always enjoyed what used to be called "country and western" music, which today is just called "country." As your uncle was a writer and historian of the Old West, I'll bet he has some great albums by Marty Robbins who was from Phoenix, Arizona (where I was born and grew up) and who sang many western ballads. His two greatest albums, in my opinion, were from 1958-59 and were entitled "Gunfighter Ballads and Trail Songs" and "More Gunfighter Ballads and Trail Songs." The first had, among others, "El Paso." Really great stuff, and I'll bet your uncle loved it.

Hope the comments in response to your query help and that you are able to raise the money to help defray the cost of your uncle's care.

Bill




Ricardo -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 29 2023 11:56:46)

quote:

Flamenco knowledge and vintage records are really two separate disciplines.


Really? You do know we can find anything at finger tips now right?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/192885885366?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-213727-13078-0&mkcid=2&itemid=192885885366&targetid=4581183927179143&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=418233787&mkgroupid=1241348861725295&rlsatarget=pla-4581183927179143&abcId=9300542&merchantid=51291&msclkid=ce473b8b23ea195357465faf344dd553

There is a $20 version. I think it is fair, considering all are used to some degree, to keep them all in that range ($20-$40). I found several of these at flamenco vive in Madrid, they have a huge expanded vinyl section. Some super rare 45’s I picked up for $2.50, etc.




estebanana -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 29 2023 12:33:43)

Well what the F do I know, I shop in jazz vinyl shops.

But hey, I said those records should start around 35 bucks and Caracol is going for 39, which seems cheap to me.




tradbeau -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 29 2023 21:39:24)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

Beau,

Just as an aside, I have always enjoyed what used to be called "country and western" music, which today is just called "country." As your uncle was a writer and historian of the Old West, I'll bet he has some great albums by Marty Robbins who was from Phoenix, Arizona (where I was born and grew up) and who sang many western ballads. His two greatest albums, in my opinion, were from 1958-59 and were entitled "Gunfighter Ballads and Trail Songs" and "More Gunfighter Ballads and Trail Songs." The first had, among others, "El Paso." Really great stuff, and I'll bet your uncle loved it.

Hope the comments in response to your query help and that you are able to raise the money to help defray the cost of your uncle's care.

Bill


He has another 100+ records that are classical guitar, country, folk, etc.

The comments have been great. I really appreciate everyone's input. Raising funds for his care is the goal.

Would I love it if his things went to people that would appreciate them or as a collection and make a decent amount?

Absolutely.

Do I want this to drag out and be greedy so I can squeeze every penny out of the opportunity?

Absolutely not.




RobF -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 30 2023 0:02:26)

Hi Beau,

I think it’s both reasonable and ethical to want to maximize the return while recognizing that there will likely be some trade-offs due to time constraints and other commitments. I also think bundling the records into thematic groups, as you’ve done, makes sense. That way, a reasonable total can be arrived at for each bundle, based on a single unit cost, for example $10-20 per piece, and then the bundles can be sold as lots. It’s important not to cull out the more desirable records to sell separately as they’ll provide the “pull”.

The guitars may be more economical models but they are still valuable. The Ramirez, if it plays well and is in good fettle, is still a nice old peg head Blanca. It has a traditional Ramirez rosette and if it sounds good (it almost certainly will) then it will be able to realize a worthwhile amount. I’m not sure if the receipt matches the guitar as it’s dated earlier than the date in the label. I don’t want to speculate on what would be a reasonable selling price although I wouldn’t even dream of letting it go for less than $3000.

The Esteso guitar is another matter altogether. The appraisals are close to fifty years old so really the only pertinent information on them is that two experts felt the guitar is genuine. They are still important as they are part of the guitar’s provenance, however. This stuff counts.

Esteso worked in the shop of Manuel Ramirez at the beginning of the last century. He, as well as other luthiers who worked alongside him in the Ramirez shop, is basically considered to be one the founding fathers of the modern flamenco guitar. Esteso left the Ramirez shop a few years before your guitar was made and established his own at Gravina 7 in Madrid.

Esteso is a hugely significant maker historically and any guitar that is of his hand is going to be highly desirable on the collector’s market. A quick check of recent sales of Esteso guitars from that period of time shows they tend to start in the neighbourhood of $10,000 and go up from there. It may turn out to be less, but don’t sell it short, that’s why an expert evaluation is important.

I don’t think you’ll have much difficulty selling the guitars and, now that vinyl records are back in fashion, I suspect selling the records in bulk lots won’t be too difficult, either. There are likely members here who would be very interested in acquiring the records. For the guitars, you will do best armed with the knowledge that can be provided by an expert evaluation. With that in hand, I think you’ll find they will both sell easily and at an amount that is fair to both the purchaser as well as to your uncle. I still think you might find the entire lot bundled together will give the best return for effort as it’s an attractive package. I wouldn’t be surprised if there are a couple of members here who would be interested in buying the whole kit and caboodle outright. It may be slightly discounted from selling them separately, but it would probably sell fast and, as your time itself has value, that could be a reasonable trade-off.




estebanana -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 30 2023 3:00:25)

The Esteso looks to be an export guitar and possibly ‘factory’ made. It’s likely not one of the jewels in the crown, but a nice 100 year old student guitar from the Esteso shop sold for export with a label that states this. Spain and Argentina had trade relationship after cold storage trans Atlantic shipping was established and Spain sent them luxury goods and Argentina sent them beef.

I don’t think it’s one of the primo Domingo Esteso single authored guitars. I’d call a certain guy for a consultation on that one.

I would go so far as to contest the paper of authentication by Stephen Spellman from the The Guitar Shop written in 1976. I don’t think, unfortunately, that Jerry’s Esteso is the best of that makers work y comparison with other Domingo guitars from that time period that I have seen.

I’m not saying this to knock the guitar, but to be realistic about what it probably really is. I would seek the opinions of a couple fellows who deal in these matters. It would be advisable to take some photos of the instrument against a plain background with a lot of natural light and get clear in focus photos of these parts.

The headstock, the rosette, the bridge, the back wood and the shots of the back of the neck.

Contact some guys I could give you the names of privately and ask them for a quick courtesy opinion. A more in-depth opinion might have a small fee. It just depends




Auda -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 30 2023 16:25:08)

Not sure if $3000.00 would be accurate. There is a 1970 Ramirez for sale with pegs for c. $1470.00 on reverb. Granted it does show a stabilised crack. The Ramirez the op has shows quite a few scratches so I would be concerned with the overall condition. The seller could have it assessed but as is it would be a gamble.

Cheers




RobF -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 30 2023 17:26:44)

quote:

Not sure if $3000.00 would be accurate…


Whether I am right or wrong in my rough estimates really is immaterial, as they were coupled with the recommendation to seek expert opinions from outside the Foro. The salient point is someone has sought advice on how to proceed in realizing the best return for a family member in their time of need and the majority of the responses have been aligned with that.




Ricardo -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 31 2023 18:49:57)

Expert opinion hardly matters in this case. What matters is what a buyer might want (the name on the label is important in other words). Just put on eBay, and people that want instruments with those names on the label will likely drive the price up as bidding continues. It is not that complex. If the guitars move at the old appraisal prices, then profit was made and goes to the cause. Likely the names on the labels will drive the price higher than those appraisals. In fact showing those photos might work in favor of the seller (included in the package) vs. a “buy it now” price tag. IMO.




RobF -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Mar. 31 2023 20:01:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Expert opinion hardly matters in this case. What matters is what a buyer might want (the name on the label is important in other words). Just put on eBay, and people that want instruments with those names on the label will likely drive the price up as bidding continues. It is not that complex. If the guitars move at the old appraisal prices, then profit was made and goes to the cause. Likely the names on the labels will drive the price higher than those appraisals. In fact showing those photos might work in favor of the seller (included in the package) vs. a “buy it now” price tag. IMO.


The appraisals are almost fifty years old, lol.

I hear what you’re saying but we have to take into account what’s been going on in the collectable markets since the pandemic, and not just with guitars. Prices on select collectables have gone through the roof, not just due to the pandemic effect, but also from crypto money laundering coupled with the recent realization/trend that money can be “parked” in desirable objects. It’s no longer only a North American and European market, the big money players aren’t from there and couldn’t care less about the objects. But it does have significance to the prices being realized for the right collectable.

The numbers I floated were more of less pulled out of my hat, but I wanted to let Beau know both his items are very sellable and desirable because that’s why he reached out to us. That being said, I suspect both figures are probably low, or if not low, easily realized. Also, and I can’t speak for Beau’s situation, there are ethical and possibly legal obligations or guidelines to consider when disposing of someone else’s property. Getting an expert evaluation, in that regard, is not only the responsible way to proceed for his uncle’s benefit, but is also possibly significant for his own protection.

I’m not sure what ‘factories’ existed back then, save to say the Esteso guitar comes from an era where the widespread adoption of the Torres models had only been recently established by Manuel Ramirez. I can’t speculate on any of that, my gut suggests it came from his workshop, but it’s beyond my level and I simply don’t know. Maybe Echi can weigh in because he likely could add a lot to the discussion.

But, it is well known and documented that Esteso, along with other Spanish makers, supplied guitars to Romero y Fernandez. It’s also known that even then makers provided (and made) different grades of instruments. Why would it be any different from today, where many makers have student or budget variations of their models? It was also probably standard for a supplier/importer to order a range of instrument grades. Again, I don’t know, but it’s not out the the realm of possibility that Esteso made the guitar. I am certain this question could easily be answered by a number of experts.

Regardless, a playable guitar from the shop of one of the most significant makers of the past century has value. I wouldn’t sell either of those guitars short. Putting them up with starting prices based on appraisals from 1976 would be, I mean I don’t even know what to say, maybe that’s not what you’re suggesting. $1500 in 1976 could buy a lot of guitar.


*edit* just an aside, completely unrelated to selling stuff….Just look at the plantilla on the Esteso. It’s freaking gorgeous. Also, look at how the head is blended into the neck, then go look at modern Condes. The rosette might let it down compared to more expensive models, but look inside at the woodwork, it’s all proper. It may be an economical model but there’s a lot to appreciate there. The Ramirez is quite pretty, too.




ernandez R -> RE: Jerry Lobdill's Flamenco Items (Apr. 1 2023 18:11:57)

If the D Esteo was a peg head I would have jumped on it regardless.

This is the one guitar I would like to have in my collection… just not in any position to kick down $10k US at this stage of my life…

HR




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