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TrickyFish

 

Posts: 47
Joined: Dec. 7 2018
 

Rondena: palo or key / tuning? 

A beginner’s question:

I’m a little confused about Rondena and can’t seem to find a definitive answer.

Is Rondena a key / tuning?

Or a discrete palo?

Or both?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2022 2:38:36
 
Stu

Posts: 2076
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to TrickyFish

I'm afraid I don't understand the question.

Are you asking what the rondeña tuning is?

What's a discrete Palo?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2022 13:15:15
 
Piwin

Posts: 3451
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to TrickyFish

Both. The sung rondeña is a kind of fandango, close to malagueñas, with a mix of major and phrygian. Tuning is usually standard tuning. But the solo guitarra repertoire went off and did its own thing, starting with Carlos Montoya*, not only changing the tuning, but also turning it into a much looser palo in terms of rhythm, something closer to a taranta than a fandango.

So basically three uses:
- rondeña as cante, a palo usually accompanied in standard tuning
- rondeña as solo guitarra, same palo but with noticeable differences and played in the altered tuning
- and by extension you have rondeña as the altered tuning, even when used to play other palos.

An example of each, in order:






*edit: not Carlos, but Ramón Montoya, as per Paul's correction below. Thanks for catching that, Paul!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2022 13:27:03
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1765
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to Piwin

quote:

But the solo guitarra repertoire went off and did its own thing, starting with Carlos Montoya


I think you mean Ramón Montoya His 1936 recording was the starting-point for nearly everyone else’s Rondeña until the days of Paco de Lucía:



The tuning is distinctive: DADF#BE.

The song is quite different, being a sort of slow Verdiales, as you’ll see if you compare Curro de Utrera’s version above.

When I was in Córdoba, a distinction was made between the names Rondeña (the guitar solo), and Rondeñas (the song-form); but clearly this isn’t universal. So:

quote:

Is Rondena a key / tuning?


• The key of Rondeña was (I believe) unique in Flamenco until (relatively) modern times: C# Phrygian.

• Rondeña tuning was pretty much confined to that toque until, again, post-Lucía times, when guitarists started experimenting more. It is, however, convenient also for playing pieces in D written for lute, such as Kemp’s Jig (my transcription of which you should be able to find if you do a search)*.

quote:

Or a discrete palo?

Or both?


See above.

Hope this helps.

*P.S. It’s tough to find now. It’s here:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=280578&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#280578
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2022 17:30:29
 
Stu

Posts: 2076
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to Paul Magnussen

So what is a discrete Palo? Never heard this term.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2022 22:29:50
 
norumba

 

Posts: 30
Joined: May 20 2015
 

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to Stu

quote:

So basically three uses:
- rondeña as cante, a palo usually accompanied in standard tuning
- rondeña as solo guitarra, same palo but with noticeable differences and played in the altered tuning
- and by extension you have rondeña as the altered tuning, even when used to play other palos.


i was curious about this as well -- this is a great parsing out how that all works, thanks!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2022 23:44:56
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1765
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to Stu

quote:

So what is a discrete Palo? Never heard this term.


A particular palo (as opposed to a family thereof)?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2022 1:25:14
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1765
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to norumba

Every time I post these days, it does it accurately, but gives the following message:

quote:

replying posted 0 closing window

Response object error 'ASP 0106 : 80020005'

Type Mismatch

/postpro.asp, line 0

An unhandled data type was encountered.


Is anyone else getting this? Or can anyone conjecture a reason? My system’s been basically unchanged for several years.

Edits work normally.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2022 1:29:28
 
TrickyFish

 

Posts: 47
Joined: Dec. 7 2018
 

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to TrickyFish

Thanks for everyone’s feedback. Multiple meanings made this confusing for me.

A follow-up question:

Is Rondena as a solo guitarra (the 2nd of Piwin’s 3 types) ever played in standard tuning?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2022 13:01:35
 
Mark2

Posts: 1734
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to TrickyFish

quote:

ORIGINAL: TrickyFish

Thanks for everyone’s feedback. Multiple meanings made this confusing for me.

A follow-up question:

Is Rondena as a solo guitarra (the 2nd of Piwin’s 3 types) ever played in standard tuning?


Not that I'm aware of. It's the tuning that gives it it's characteristic sound.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2022 16:39:49
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1191
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to Stu

quote:

So what is a discrete Palo? Never heard this term.

I guess the word discrete comes from the maths and statistics. Distinguishing discrete variable from continious variable will give you a better idea. As Mr. Magnussen mentioned, a discrete palo means a separate or individual palo in this particular case.

https://www.statisticshowto.com/probability-and-statistics/statistics-definitions/discrete-vs-continuous-variables/

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2022 20:14:43
 
kitarist

Posts: 1551
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

• The key of Rondeña was (I believe) unique in Flamenco until (relatively) modern times: C# Phrygian.


This gives me an excuse to post a link to last year's "Flamenco Circle of Fifths" thread and the diagrams

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=332688&s=#332869

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2022 21:49:09
 
Pgh_flamenco

 

Posts: 1490
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to Paul Magnussen

Paco Pena plays a version of Ramon Montoya’s Rodena.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 18 2022 22:24:49
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13523
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to TrickyFish

quote:

ORIGINAL: TrickyFish

Thanks for everyone’s feedback. Multiple meanings made this confusing for me.

A follow-up question:

Is Rondena as a solo guitarra (the 2nd of Piwin’s 3 types) ever played in standard tuning?



Piwin summarized what I would have said nicely. To add a couple things to what he said…Montoya plays a falseta based on Levantica in his guitar solo. Meanwhile, Manuel Torre recorded a famous Taranto cante but the record jacket calls it “Rondeña”!! Montoya used the tuning and key (C# phrygian with Drop D and drop G to F#) to accompany a female singer por Taranta…as a sort of substitute for what he normally used which was Granaina capoed two frets higher (in effect giving himself and guitar more fretboard range and depth). Not sure which idea came first for him, as there was only that singular example (Norman Kliman once shared it with us here, but has ignored my requests to resend it, and I can’ remember her name but I will find out.). The Taranta she sang, I do remember is similar to Chacón’s recordings, that which aficionados refer to today as one of two styles of Cartageneras. The song titles for Cantes de la Minas are all over the damn place, so you must get used to vague mixing and matching of these concepts of guitar keys and palos names in general.

C# as a tonality for flamenco arrives thanks to this exact tuning of Montoya and only later a guy named Velez played Granaina in C# (search for Sanlucar Granaina) in standard tuning. This maybe prompted American David Jones to develop his own Rondeña in D# phrygian in standard tuning (all this in the 1970’s I believe), which the gitanos of caño Roto later expanded and used for all flamenco forms pretty much. By the 1990’s C#, D#, and using Rondeña tuning for various palos were all standard practices and almost any palo guitar solo or cante accompaniment might get the treatment.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 19 2022 16:03:38
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13523
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to Pgh_flamenco

Norman sent me the track this morning! The singer’s name was Encarna Salmeron, and apparently she is copying a version by Vallejo. 1928 is almost a decade before Montoya recorded the iconic guitar solo, so there is a good chance he was working with this tuning for a long time to be used with singers that were in a high key. Maybe other singers thought it sounded weird so we have only this one recorded example.



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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 24 2022 17:14:28
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3402
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to Stu

quote:

What's a discrete Palo?


a palo that won't divulge your personal secrets

oh no, that's "discreet"

"discrete" means separate and distinct

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 29 2022 21:27:37
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3402
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

The key of Rondeña was (I believe) unique in Flamenco until (relatively) modern times: C# Phrygian.


Ricardo mentions Manolo Sanlucar's Granaina in C# - first recorded as "Brindis Para Alberto Velez" on the LP "Mundo Y Formas de la Guitarra Flamenca" released in 1973.



Alberto Velez apparently composed a "Rondeña" in C# in standard tuning some time earlier than that called "Capricho". There is a recording of a student of his playing it, but no recording of Velez himself, so it is not possible to date.

Born in 1921, Velez performed in touring shows alongside Ramon Montoya earlier in his career, and later worked in a tablao in Madrid where Manolo Sanlucar got to know him when he (Manolo) was starting out.

My guess is that Alberto's toque inspired the homenaje from Manolo, and maybe Alberto got the idea for a C# toque libre from Montoya, but who knows? (and if that is the case, why he chose standard tuning and not Montoya's use of "Rondeña" tuning is also anyone's guess)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 29 2022 21:46:30
 
Stu

Posts: 2076
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to Paul Magnussen

Thanks for the explanation Paul.

quote:

a palo that won't divulge your personal secrets




Honestly I've never heard that word in 43 years. I know discreet. But not discrete!
...and I'd consider mysef a bit if a word enthuisiast. Learning is fun.

..anyway back to topic

Cool video/audio Ricardo! thanks for sharing. or Thanks Norman! (shame he doesnt come here anymore!)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 30 2022 9:08:47
 
Piwin

Posts: 3451
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to Stu

From Ovid's Hemoroides:

Theseus: I don't know man; just look at us. My wife is running around falsely accusing my son of trying to rape her. Your wife just had to go and f%ck a bull. I don't think the history books will be kind with us.

Minos: So... you're saying future historians will diss Crete? haha.

Theseus: shut up, Minos.

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 30 2022 14:16:43
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13523
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

The key of Rondeña was (I believe) unique in Flamenco until (relatively) modern times: C# Phrygian.


Ricardo mentions Manolo Sanlucar's Granaina in C# - first recorded as "Brindis Para Alberto Velez" on the LP "Mundo Y Formas de la Guitarra Flamenca" released in 1973.



Alberto Velez apparently composed a "Rondeña" in C# in standard tuning some time earlier than that called "Capricho". There is a recording of a student of his playing it, but no recording of Velez himself, so it is not possible to date.

Born in 1921, Velez performed in touring shows alongside Ramon Montoya earlier in his career, and later worked in a tablao in Madrid where Manolo Sanlucar got to know him when he (Manolo) was starting out.

My guess is that Alberto's toque inspired the homenaje from Manolo, and maybe Alberto got the idea for a C# toque libre from Montoya, but who knows? (and if that is the case, why he chose standard tuning and not Montoya's use of "Rondeña" tuning is also anyone's guess)


You uploaded the track here:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=246698&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1

The end of part 1 has the Granaina lead in for the cante (chromatic slide from G# up to C#)

Part 3 has a fandango-ish melody that also sneaks in Montoya’s Levantica falseta (perhaps the main reason he referred to it as Rondeña), but also concludes this section with the Granaina slide.

Sanlucar had the right idea that it is sort of like an extension of the Granaina key in the same way Minera is an extension of the Taranta key (extension of Fret space in other words, for when you have to capo up high).

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 30 2022 18:59:18
 
Stu

Posts: 2076
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

From Ovid's Hemoroides:

Theseus: I don't know man; just look at us. My wife is running around falsely accusing my son of trying to rape her. Your wife just had to go and f%ck a bull. I don't think the history books will be kind with us.

Minos: So... you're saying future historians will diss Crete? haha.

Theseus: shut up, Minos.


haha! Good work! 👍
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 31 2022 0:15:35
 
orsonw

Posts: 1630
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to TrickyFish

Alejandro Hurtado released an album this month playing Ramon Montoya and Manolo de Huelva, "Maestros del Arte Clásico Flamenco". He recorded using their guitars.

Here's a live interpretation of Montoya's rondeña played on Montoya's 1916 Santos guitar.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 31 2022 11:06:56
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13523
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to orsonw

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

Alejandro Hurtado released an album this month playing Ramon Montoya and Manolo de Huelva, "Maestros del Arte Clásico Flamenco". He recorded using their guitars.

Here's a live interpretation of Montoya's rondeña played on Montoya's 1916 Santos guitar.




Excellent. I wonder the story about the guitar? I played the 1923 Esteso that was also his that was acquired by Luis Maravilla, and now in Richard Brune’s shop in Chicago area. But I know most of the photos of Ramon he was using that Santos with the maple tap plates.



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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 31 2022 14:40:46
 
orsonw

Posts: 1630
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I wonder the story about the guitar?


I think that perhaps Paul Magnussen may be able to tell us more?

The guitar is currently in the archivo Zayas de Sevilla. Perhaps the guitar went straight from Montoya to there? Apparently it was Marius de Zayas who suggested/arranged for Montoya to record a solo album in Paris 1936 - 'Arte Clásico Flamenco'?

Here's a better listen/look at the guitar:

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 31 2022 20:04:05
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1765
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to orsonw

quote:

I think that perhaps Paul Magnussen may be able to tell us more?


Sorry, no.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 1 2022 18:18:52
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3402
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

You uploaded the track here:


well remembered!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 1 2022 20:24:03
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3402
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (in reply to Piwin

quote:

rom Ovid's Hemoroides:

Theseus: I don't know man; just look at us. My wife is running around falsely accusing my son of trying to rape her. Your wife just had to go and f%ck a bull. I don't think the history books will be kind with us.

Minos: So... you're saying future historians will diss Crete? haha.

Theseus: shut up, Minos.




_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 1 2022 20:25:40
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