Both. The sung rondeña is a kind of fandango, close to malagueñas, with a mix of major and phrygian. Tuning is usually standard tuning. But the solo guitarra repertoire went off and did its own thing, starting with Carlos Montoya*, not only changing the tuning, but also turning it into a much looser palo in terms of rhythm, something closer to a taranta than a fandango.
So basically three uses: - rondeña as cante, a palo usually accompanied in standard tuning - rondeña as solo guitarra, same palo but with noticeable differences and played in the altered tuning - and by extension you have rondeña as the altered tuning, even when used to play other palos.
An example of each, in order:
*edit: not Carlos, but Ramón Montoya, as per Paul's correction below. Thanks for catching that, Paul!
Paul Magnussen -> RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (Jul. 17 2022 17:30:29)
quote:
But the solo guitarra repertoire went off and did its own thing, starting with Carlos Montoya
I think you mean Ramón Montoya [:)] His 1936 recording was the starting-point for nearly everyone else’s Rondeña until the days of Paco de Lucía:
The tuning is distinctive: DADF#BE.
The song is quite different, being a sort of slow Verdiales, as you’ll see if you compare Curro de Utrera’s version above.
When I was in Córdoba, a distinction was made between the names Rondeña (the guitar solo), and Rondeñas (the song-form); but clearly this isn’t universal. So:
quote:
Is Rondena a key / tuning?
• The key of Rondeña was (I believe) unique in Flamenco until (relatively) modern times: C# Phrygian.
• Rondeña tuning was pretty much confined to that toque until, again, post-Lucía times, when guitarists started experimenting more. It is, however, convenient also for playing pieces in D written for lute, such as Kemp’s Jig (my transcription of which you should be able to find if you do a search)*.
So basically three uses: - rondeña as cante, a palo usually accompanied in standard tuning - rondeña as solo guitarra, same palo but with noticeable differences and played in the altered tuning - and by extension you have rondeña as the altered tuning, even when used to play other palos.
i was curious about this as well -- this is a great parsing out how that all works, thanks!
Paul Magnussen -> RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (Jul. 18 2022 1:25:14)
quote:
So what is a discrete Palo? Never heard this term.
A particular palo (as opposed to a family thereof)?
Paul Magnussen -> RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (Jul. 18 2022 1:29:28)
Every time I post these days, it does it accurately, but gives the following message:
quote:
replying posted 0 closing window
Response object error 'ASP 0106 : 80020005'
Type Mismatch
/postpro.asp, line 0
An unhandled data type was encountered.
Is anyone else getting this? Or can anyone conjecture a reason? My system’s been basically unchanged for several years.
So what is a discrete Palo? Never heard this term.
I guess the word discrete comes from the maths and statistics. Distinguishing discrete variable from continious variable will give you a better idea. As Mr. Magnussen mentioned, a discrete palo means a separate or individual palo in this particular case.
Thanks for everyone’s feedback. Multiple meanings made this confusing for me.
A follow-up question:
Is Rondena as a solo guitarra (the 2nd of Piwin’s 3 types) ever played in standard tuning?
Piwin summarized what I would have said nicely. To add a couple things to what he said…Montoya plays a falseta based on Levantica in his guitar solo. Meanwhile, Manuel Torre recorded a famous Taranto cante but the record jacket calls it “Rondeña”!! Montoya used the tuning and key (C# phrygian with Drop D and drop G to F#) to accompany a female singer por Taranta…as a sort of substitute for what he normally used which was Granaina capoed two frets higher (in effect giving himself and guitar more fretboard range and depth). Not sure which idea came first for him, as there was only that singular example (Norman Kliman once shared it with us here, but has ignored my requests to resend it, and I can’ remember her name but I will find out.). The Taranta she sang, I do remember is similar to Chacón’s recordings, that which aficionados refer to today as one of two styles of Cartageneras. The song titles for Cantes de la Minas are all over the damn place, so you must get used to vague mixing and matching of these concepts of guitar keys and palos names in general.
C# as a tonality for flamenco arrives thanks to this exact tuning of Montoya and only later a guy named Velez played Granaina in C# (search for Sanlucar Granaina) in standard tuning. This maybe prompted American David Jones to develop his own Rondeña in D# phrygian in standard tuning (all this in the 1970’s I believe), which the gitanos of caño Roto later expanded and used for all flamenco forms pretty much. By the 1990’s C#, D#, and using Rondeña tuning for various palos were all standard practices and almost any palo guitar solo or cante accompaniment might get the treatment.
Norman sent me the track this morning! The singer’s name was Encarna Salmeron, and apparently she is copying a version by Vallejo. 1928 is almost a decade before Montoya recorded the iconic guitar solo, so there is a good chance he was working with this tuning for a long time to be used with singers that were in a high key. Maybe other singers thought it sounded weird so we have only this one recorded example.
mark indigo -> RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (Jul. 29 2022 21:27:37)
quote:
What's a discrete Palo?
a palo that won't divulge your personal secrets[:D]
oh no, that's "discreet"
"discrete" means separate and distinct
mark indigo -> RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (Jul. 29 2022 21:46:30)
quote:
The key of Rondeña was (I believe) unique in Flamenco until (relatively) modern times: C# Phrygian.
Ricardo mentions Manolo Sanlucar's Granaina in C# - first recorded as "Brindis Para Alberto Velez" on the LP "Mundo Y Formas de la Guitarra Flamenca" released in 1973.
Alberto Velez apparently composed a "Rondeña" in C# in standard tuning some time earlier than that called "Capricho". There is a recording of a student of his playing it, but no recording of Velez himself, so it is not possible to date.
Born in 1921, Velez performed in touring shows alongside Ramon Montoya earlier in his career, and later worked in a tablao in Madrid where Manolo Sanlucar got to know him when he (Manolo) was starting out.
My guess is that Alberto's toque inspired the homenaje from Manolo, and maybe Alberto got the idea for a C# toque libre from Montoya, but who knows? (and if that is the case, why he chose standard tuning and not Montoya's use of "Rondeña" tuning is also anyone's guess)
Stu -> RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (Jul. 30 2022 9:08:47)
Thanks for the explanation Paul.
quote:
a palo that won't divulge your personal secrets
[:D]
Honestly I've never heard that word in 43 years. I know discreet. But not discrete! [8|] ...and I'd consider mysef a bit if a word enthuisiast. Learning is fun.
..anyway back to topic
Cool video/audio Ricardo! thanks for sharing. or Thanks Norman! (shame he doesnt come here anymore!)
Theseus: I don't know man; just look at us. My wife is running around falsely accusing my son of trying to rape her. Your wife just had to go and f%ck a bull. I don't think the history books will be kind with us.
Minos: So... you're saying future historians will diss Crete? haha.
The key of Rondeña was (I believe) unique in Flamenco until (relatively) modern times: C# Phrygian.
Ricardo mentions Manolo Sanlucar's Granaina in C# - first recorded as "Brindis Para Alberto Velez" on the LP "Mundo Y Formas de la Guitarra Flamenca" released in 1973.
Alberto Velez apparently composed a "Rondeña" in C# in standard tuning some time earlier than that called "Capricho". There is a recording of a student of his playing it, but no recording of Velez himself, so it is not possible to date.
Born in 1921, Velez performed in touring shows alongside Ramon Montoya earlier in his career, and later worked in a tablao in Madrid where Manolo Sanlucar got to know him when he (Manolo) was starting out.
My guess is that Alberto's toque inspired the homenaje from Manolo, and maybe Alberto got the idea for a C# toque libre from Montoya, but who knows? (and if that is the case, why he chose standard tuning and not Montoya's use of "Rondeña" tuning is also anyone's guess)
The end of part 1 has the Granaina lead in for the cante (chromatic slide from G# up to C#)
Part 3 has a fandango-ish melody that also sneaks in Montoya’s Levantica falseta (perhaps the main reason he referred to it as Rondeña), but also concludes this section with the Granaina slide.
Sanlucar had the right idea that it is sort of like an extension of the Granaina key in the same way Minera is an extension of the Taranta key (extension of Fret space in other words, for when you have to capo up high).
Stu -> RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (Jul. 31 2022 0:15:35)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
From Ovid's Hemoroides:
Theseus: I don't know man; just look at us. My wife is running around falsely accusing my son of trying to rape her. Your wife just had to go and f%ck a bull. I don't think the history books will be kind with us.
Minos: So... you're saying future historians will diss Crete? haha.
Alejandro Hurtado released an album this month playing Ramon Montoya and Manolo de Huelva, "Maestros del Arte Clásico Flamenco". He recorded using their guitars.
Here's a live interpretation of Montoya's rondeña played on Montoya's 1916 Santos guitar.
Alejandro Hurtado released an album this month playing Ramon Montoya and Manolo de Huelva, "Maestros del Arte Clásico Flamenco". He recorded using their guitars.
Here's a live interpretation of Montoya's rondeña played on Montoya's 1916 Santos guitar.
Excellent. I wonder the story about the guitar? I played the 1923 Esteso that was also his that was acquired by Luis Maravilla, and now in Richard Brune’s shop in Chicago area. But I know most of the photos of Ramon he was using that Santos with the maple tap plates.
I think that perhaps Paul Magnussen may be able to tell us more?
The guitar is currently in the archivo Zayas de Sevilla. Perhaps the guitar went straight from Montoya to there? Apparently it was Marius de Zayas who suggested/arranged for Montoya to record a solo album in Paris 1936 - 'Arte Clásico Flamenco'?
Here's a better listen/look at the guitar:
Paul Magnussen -> RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (Aug. 1 2022 18:18:52)
quote:
I think that perhaps Paul Magnussen may be able to tell us more?
Sorry, no.
mark indigo -> RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (Aug. 1 2022 20:24:03)
quote:
You uploaded the track here:
well remembered![:D]
mark indigo -> RE: Rondena: palo or key / tuning? (Aug. 1 2022 20:25:40)
quote:
rom Ovid's Hemoroides:
Theseus: I don't know man; just look at us. My wife is running around falsely accusing my son of trying to rape her. Your wife just had to go and f%ck a bull. I don't think the history books will be kind with us.
Minos: So... you're saying future historians will diss Crete? haha.
