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JasonM

Posts: 1783
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid 

It had Brune in it so I watched. When I think of a stereotype classical guitarist , this guy Brandon comes to mind lol!

https://youtu.be/EPY9Mxg3OJQ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2022 1:40:05
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3206
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to JasonM

I watched/listened too. I'm a lot more familiar with Marshall's father than I am with him. Richard plays flamenco, was a pro at Manolo Caracol's tablao in Mexico City, back when we were both young.

I thought the guitar comparisons were interesting. I was surprised that the 1936 Hauser was audibly better IMO than Richard Brune's 1937 Hauser copy. Brune's guitar is really fabulous, but the Hauser is fabulouser.

I hang around classical guitarists a fair amount, went to a concert by Jorge Caballero night before last. The concert was in the new 78-seat room at Austin Classical Guitar's new home. It was streamed over the internet to a much larger audience.

Caballero is a technique monster. He finished off the concert with his transcription of Debussy's "Children's Corner" suite. After the first movement I said to the person sitting next to me, a board member of the Guitar Society, "You know, you can't play that on the guitar."

Brandon Acker seems pretty much true to type among the younger set of classical players. I've never met him, but I've seen a few videos. In manners and attitude some of the more mature players like David Russell and Pepe Romero seem a little more in tune with my dwindling age group. American manners have gone through at least a couple of major changes during my adult lifetime.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2022 3:59:17
 
Pgh_flamenco

 

Posts: 1419
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Ramzi commented on the video and was confronted for suggesting Brune be more respectful. I didn’t expect to see Ramzi’s comment so I thought I would mention it here.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2022 13:36:22
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to JasonM

The feel I have for this video is based on knowing Marshal Brune's up bringing in his Dad's guitar shop and his growing up in the musical arts, which took time and a lot of effort to establish. It's a heart felt story that would take me a lot of time to relive on this post.

But the main purpose for my mention here is to applaud both Richard & Son for their work and dedication, given to the arts in establishing a place that will continue to grow and flourish for those serious players, who not only perform but seek to know things about their instruments that are waiting to be revealed.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2022 14:59:16
 
JasonM

Posts: 1783
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to Pgh_flamenco

quote:

Ramzi commented on the video and was confronted for suggesting Brune be more respectful. I didn’t expect to see Ramzi’s comment so I thought I would mention it here.


Oh I see regarding the $200 dollar Cordoba. It is indeed pretty incredible that any company can build a guitar for that price and still have margin for profit! I wonder if the laminated top is really more cost effective than a bottom barrel solid top? Guess manufacturing consistency and aesthetics are more important here. Still it’s all mind blowing
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2022 17:20:41
 
kitarist

Posts: 1442
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

I was surprised that the 1936 Hauser was audibly better IMO than Richard Brune's 1937 Hauser copy. Brune's guitar is really fabulous, but the Hauser is fabulouser.


So this was a 1936 Hauser with [repaired] cracks in the top, for $200,000. I just saw on the delcamp classical guitar forum that someone had recently bought a 1937 Hauser "with a letter from Hauser himself in 1937 that was built right before Segovia's with the same woods". No mention of cracks, and he is only the third owner.

I can't imagine how much he paid for it if the 1936 Hauser we see in the video is correctly priced, whatever that means

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2022 19:43:27
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3206
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to kitarist

I have a couple of guitars that might be considered collectible. The last time the insurance premium came due I checked prices with the dealer from whom I bought one of them. I was surprised (shocked?) by the numbers he quoted. But my house in Austin is worth three times what I paid for it in January, 2009, so ¿Quien sabe?

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2022 20:53:12
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3301
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to kitarist

quote:

I can't imagine how much he paid for it if the 1936 Hauser we see in the video is correctly priced, whatever that means.


As we know, in a market-based economy price is determined by supply and demand when an equilibrium is reached. The "correct" price for the Hauser is whatever the market will bear, given that the supply is extremely limited and will not increase, and demand could be, theoretically, infinite, depending on the desire of the buyers in the market for a Hauser.

What I cannot understand is how people can buy crypto-currency (bitcoin and the like, which is unregulated) for the outrageous price it reached. And the latest fad, NFTs, that are a digital form of so-called "art" for millions. You can't hang it on the wall or appreciate it as a tangible work of art. I assume you can only view it on a screen, but you are the sole "owner.". Crypto-currency and NFT "art work" remind me of the 17th century Dutch Tulip Mania, which came crashing down.

Given the direction of some elements of economic demand today, such as the above, perhaps a $200,000 Hauser is the more sensible option.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2022 21:13:38
 
RobF

Posts: 1188
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to JasonM

The whole premise of the video is so ridiculous, I couldn’t bring myself to watch it.

Why not have an informed honest broker select a factory guitar from the $800-1200 range, a luthier made guitar in the $4000-6000 range, their $20,000 guitar and the $200,000 guitar and then put them through their paces? I bet the results might be surprising.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 9 2022 23:16:01
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13292
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to RobF

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobF

The whole premise of the video is so ridiculous, I couldn’t bring myself to watch it.

Why not have an informed honest broker select a factory guitar from the $800-1200 range, a luthier made guitar in the $4000-6000 range, their $20,000 guitar and the $200,000 guitar and then put them through their paces? I bet the results might be surprising.


I can do that at home here, if you want (well, not the 200k example, but I have hauser 2). But the truth is I did this to myself with ToddK years ago. I was shocked that blindfolded play back of each guitar I recorded….my own guitars I just played moments earlier…I could not tell a freakin difference . The price is about the look, feel, label. That is all.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2022 13:19:52
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

The price is about the look, feel, label. That is all.


Respectfully, I have to agree that many players are not equipped to discern sound differences with guitars.

However, I find differences all the time with my fine tuning.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2022 14:52:42
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to RobF

quote:


The whole premise of the video is so ridiculous, I couldn’t bring myself to watch it.


The high point to watching videos is to glean information for future reference and application to acknowledge better ways to present the same topic in a better light, which you just suggested in your last paragraph :-)

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2022 15:53:36
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1898
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to Ricardo

Anybody wants to buy my Gerundino? (considered as the best guitar in Cádiz). I would ask Sanchis to make me an exact copy. The buyer would have to listen to both, played by the same tocaor, behind a screen and agree to pay 10,000 euros for the guitar he preferred.

Any takers?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2022 16:33:14
 
JasonM

Posts: 1783
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to RobF

quote:

Why not have an informed honest broker select a factory guitar from the $800-1200 range, a luthier made guitar in the $4000-6000 range, their $20,000 guitar and the $200,000 guitar and then put them through their paces? I bet the results might be surprising.


I thought that too, but then they wouldn’t have the catchy title of $200, $2000…
Also, the 2000$ Japanese guitar sounded good, but 4mm action no wonder. Did anyone catch Luciano’s video where he lowered the action on his Negra that he plays. Big difference in sound hit imho. You guys know this of course.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2022 16:58:09
 
Pgh_flamenco

 

Posts: 1419
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vi (in reply to JasonM

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM
Oh I see regarding the $200 dollar Cordoba. It is indeed pretty incredible that any company can build a guitar for that price and still have margin for profit! I wonder if the laminated top is really more cost effective than a bottom barrel solid top? Guess manufacturing consistency and aesthetics are more important here. Still it’s all mind blowing


I bought a Chinese-made steel string guitar recently for sub-$200. I wasn’t even in the market for one at the time and haven’t owned a steel string guitar since the early 80s. I later found a guitar made by Taylor at GC - listed for $4,000 - that looked a lot like it. How can they even afford the shipping from China to the US, and then from the retailer to the customer, and still make a profit?

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2022 18:27:20
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vi (in reply to Pgh_flamenco

quote:

How can they even afford the shipping from China to the US, and then from the retailer to the customer, and still make a profit?


25 dollars to manufacture, 15 dollars to ship, 60 dollars wholesale to the store, then 100 dollars to the customer= 200 dollars.

Shipping might be a little off, which would adjust wholesale dollar higher.

However, my Japan China guitar cost me 275 dollars to check out, which was higher quality than the video instrument, which I later donated to a fellow in Moldova.......

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 10 2022 21:21:18
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3301
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to BarkellWH

Following up on my comment above regarding the outrageous prices paid for crypto-currency and NFT digital so-called "art works," vs. the $200,000 Hauser guitar. Today's news announced that the Andy Warhol painting of Marilyn Monroe sold for $195 million. Apparently there is no ceiling for the price of something that someone wants badly enough.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2022 0:15:12
 
kitarist

Posts: 1442
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

Following up on my comment above regarding the outrageous prices paid for crypto-currency and NFT


There's lots of stupidity at the top (in more than one sense). Last year a guy bought an NFT of Twitter's founder Dorsey's first tweet, for almost $3 million. A few weeks ago he tried to sell it anticipating $40+ million opening bid; at the time the auction was done the top bid was $277 (he didn't accept it and now is apparently making eyes at Musk to buy it instead, but for a price he considers worthy of that "digital Mona Lisa").

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2022 1:01:28
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1513
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to JasonM

Nice.

I wonder what "$500 off a deposit for a guitar" means.

A dealer told me that people buy guitars on the basis of looks.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2022 2:44:37
 
JasonM

Posts: 1783
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to kitarist

quote:

Last year a guy bought an NFT of Twitter's founder Dorsey's first tweet, for almost $3 million. A few weeks ago he tried to sell it anticipating $40+ million opening bid; at the time the auction was done the top bid was $277 (he didn't accept it and now is apparently making eyes at Musk to buy it instead, but for a price he considers worthy of that "digital Mona Lisa").

_____________________________

Konstantin


This story warms my heart
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2022 15:46:25
 
ernandez R

Posts: 527
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to constructordeguitarras

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

Nice.

I wonder what "$500 off a deposit for a guitar" means.

A dealer told me that people buy guitars on the basis of looks.



Dealer must be blind, first thing anyone does is look for the price tag, flip it around to read, then look at the guitar.

Would make an interesting study.

First thing I do is note how securely it is hanging then gently strum, on the rare accession it is worthy I’ll ask the shopkeeper if I can play it....

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 11 2022 18:30:38
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13292
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

quote:

The price is about the look, feel, label. That is all.


Respectfully, I have to agree that many players are not equipped to discern sound differences with guitars.

However, I find differences all the time with my fine tuning.


If you mean that you improve the sound along the way such that when you are satisfied, your instruments are ready to go out the door at approx the same minimum value (in your case it is a relatively high market price), then what I was saying was, how can you HEAR the difference between six examples or so, that you HAVE ALREADY TUNED to your liking??? I am certain you couldn’t, but you would have to test it. I know, fairly objectively that your tuning method “works” via the Pedro de Miguel example I happened to come across that was noticeably different than the norm…but it was also based on feel or “response” to my playing.

Regarding my quote, the 5 examples I tested myself with, from my own personal collection, each have their obvious response characteristics when in my hands. I am talking about outside of my subjective experience, I could not hear any difference upon instant playback. So it is not about players vs luthiers objective ears, but rather, the different things we are focusing our ears ON, when we have the things in our hot little hands.

One last thing to add, and again as objective science this “theory” of mine would be hard to test, but guitar “collections” tend to acquire a “sameness” in tone quality for some reason. I noticed this when I got into Brune’s old shop. I mean all the guitars had some certain quality in common, even the low end models or Marshal’s amazing “scrap wood flamenco” build, much like my personal collection has. Could it be the simple fact Richard plays them ALL?? That is a hard one to check objectively, however, when I re-acquired my first classical guitar (japanese Nagoya) I used from middle school to college (sold 1995) in 2019, it was amazing that it had that similar tone quality of my entire collection and was welcomed home. It got me thinking about this idea again that the player puts something into the instrument that is not there at first.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2022 12:06:55
 
RobF

Posts: 1188
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

It got me thinking about this idea again that the player puts something into the instrument that is not there at first.


Generally, that would be scratches and dents.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2022 14:15:06
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I know, fairly objectively that your tuning method “works” via the Pedro de Miguel example I happened to come across that was noticeably different than the norm…but it was also based on feel or “response” to my playing.


Correct and the rest of your post has merit as well. Guitars respond in many different ways. This is what appeals to players with certain acumen for the style they like.

With all the different styles I've built, I've settled on two styles that I think the market likes the best, but even with this, I've come to the conclusion that I can't serve every players interests.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2022 14:48:59
 
JasonM

Posts: 1783
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to Tom Blackshear

Can I leave one of my guitars next to your Conde’s?

Maybe it’s same Humidity levels, room acoustics, nails, and psych.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2022 16:33:15
 
kitarist

Posts: 1442
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to JasonM

quote:

This story warms my heart




_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2022 17:32:27
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2304
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to JasonM

quote:

Can I leave one of my guitars next to your Conde’s?

Maybe it’s same Humidity levels, room acoustics, nails, and psych.


Speaking of Conde's, perhaps the last one I'm trying to finish up, will probably be a tell tale winner or just not worth much :-)

The truth is, no matter how hard a builder tries to make it right, there is always a risk factor involved.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 12 2022 20:55:20
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3206
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
The price is about the look, feel, label. That is all.


Just curious—did you listen to the video? If so, did you hear any differences among the $2000 “Francisco Fleta,” the $20K Richard Brune, and the Hauser?

I listened with a pair of Sony WH-1000 XM3 headphones (electronics turned off) plugged straight into a Mac Mini, because that was what was at hand when I clicked on the video. I don’t prefer listening to big symphony stuff or, say a mambo band on headphones, because they don’t kick you in the chest, but for a fairly quiet instrument like the guitar, the Sonys sound pretty good.

I wasn’t surprised to hear a difference between the Japanese guitar and the Brune, but I was surprised at the difference between the Brune and the Hauser.

I often say, “No recording, played on any equipment, sounds like the real thing.” But I would expect to hear significant differences among the guitars if I played them, or if I was up close when Brandon Acker did.

I believe the fact that the microphones were fairly close to the instruments was a significant factor in the differing sounds of the recordings.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2022 2:12:07
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13292
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

Just curious—did you listen to the video? If so, did you hear any differences among the $2000 “Francisco Fleta,” the $20K Richard Brune, and the Hauser?


Of course, but the whole thing sets up a bias from the start. With a proper objective blindfold test no one could tell the difference.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2022 17:40:03
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1513
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Not another $200-$200k Guitar Vid (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

One last thing to add, and again as objective science this “theory” of mine would be hard to test, but guitar “collections” tend to acquire a “sameness” in tone quality for some reason. I noticed this when I got into Brune’s old shop. I mean all the guitars had some certain quality in common, even the low end models or Marshal’s amazing “scrap wood flamenco” build, much like my personal collection has. Could it be the simple fact Richard plays them ALL?? That is a hard one to check objectively, however, when I re-acquired my first classical guitar (japanese Nagoya) I used from middle school to college (sold 1995) in 2019, it was amazing that it had that similar tone quality of my entire collection and was welcomed home. It got me thinking about this idea again that the player puts something into the instrument that is not there at first.


I think what you are talking about could be due to setup. Setup has a huge effect on both sound and playability, and it seems likely that the owner of a collection would want all his (or her, or...) guitars set up similarly for them to enjoy and for comparison.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 13 2022 18:46:10
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