Second thoughts about relief

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constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1672
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

Second thoughts about relief

I made a blanca for someone recently with minimal relief carved in the fingerboard. He subsequently ordered a negra and requested no relief. So I leveled the fingerboard and the frets dead straight. And despite the pultruted carbon-fiber reinforcement that I use, I found that, after stringing it up (with Luthier Popular Supreme 20 medium tension strings), the strings had pulled about a half millimeter of relief and it was perfect, set up with an action of 1.9 t 2.1 mm. I have been wondering if the Spanish cedar is just not as stiff as it used to be or if I just hadn't discovered this before. (More photos of this guitar at http://www.edluthier.com/blog/custom-florentine-flamenca-negra-for-robert )

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
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I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 5 2022 21:40:22

Ricardo

Posts: 14797
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Second thoughts about relief (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Interesting, what is the height at the saddle side? If you mean 2.1 at 12th fret that is too low for me…I need 3 at least there and over at bridge 7-8mm. Not sure if that can be done without relief.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2022 18:17:16

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1672
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Second thoughts about relief (in reply to Ricardo)

Yes, I was talking about action at the 12th fret. About 4 mm of saddle is showing over the bridge, which is about 4.6 mm tall, so the string is about 8.6 mm from the golpeador, as requested by the customer. (I used a special neck angle for this guitar. He's not a flamenco player. He plays with a--horrors--pick.) But there is relief--when it is strung up. And that is less concerning with higher action, not more.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2022 22:01:28

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1672
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Second thoughts about relief (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

This was the first guitar I finished separately from the bridge. I had nightmares about accidentally cutting a rectangle out of the soundboard when cutting around the masking tape, before I did it. But it went well.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 6 2022 22:06:59

AndresK

Posts: 309
Joined: Jan. 4 2019
From: Patras, Greece

RE: Second thoughts about relief (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Beautiful guitar. Well done!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2022 9:25:30

mrstwinkle

Posts: 551
Joined: May 14 2017

RE: Second thoughts about relief (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Now THAT is a cutaway.

Nice looking guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 8 2022 21:19:04

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1672
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Second thoughts about relief (in reply to AndresK)

Thanks for your feedback everyone.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2022 14:38:49

ernandez R

Posts: 737
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Second thoughts about relief (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

Wow...
what woods in the binding? I have a set of black Walnut and was thinking some AYC bindings etc for contrast would look cool.

As far as the relief there are so many variables... perhaps it would be prudent to take a thin strip and do a deflection test? Knowing every piece of wood is going to be different and treat accordingly: adapt your neck profile and thickness distribution. When I’m shadowing my neck I have fret relief in mind. Once upon a time I took some basic physics for aeronautical engineering classes and we did some simple modeling fir force/load distribution, plotting a graph was a basic log curve as a function of aspect ratio, width to length, the curve started at zero at the end, think wing tip or guitar nut, and max laod at the root, say at the body/neck junction. I’ve taken to thinning my necks with accordingly getting more daring with each one. The reality is the failure mode isn’t string load but gravity induced shock ie the gravity check :/

About Ricardos comment up thread about f12 string clearance I tend to agree that 3mm is it, I hit the strings hard when I’m really going at it and anything less is a buzz fest. I find I need to bump the 4th string up a touch overall.

I haven’t set a firm relief number but found I like more then less but I can get some buzz at f10-ish if there is too much, again I’m crushing the wound strings when this happens.

HR

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 10 2022 16:25:46

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1672
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Second thoughts about relief (in reply to ernandez R)

Hi, HR. The back and sides are Indian rosewood and the bindings, head plate, and bridge are Bolivian rosewood (which bleeds color a lot less than Indian). The side purfling is hard maple. I think walnut would work fine for bindings. What's "AYC"? So, you don't agree that the higher the action, the less of a concern relief is?

mrstwinkle--French polishing inside the tight curve was quite a challenge. I would make it less tight next time, coming to a point a little closer to the waist.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 11 2022 20:14:01

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Second thoughts about relief (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

That cutaway looks a lot like the one on Al Di Meola’s Conde.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2022 18:57:46

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Second thoughts about relief (in reply to constructordeguitarras)

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras
I have been wondering if the Spanish cedar is just not as stiff as it used to be or if I just hadn't discovered this before.

Have you considered using truss rods in these guitars?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 12 2022 19:00:22

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1672
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Second thoughts about relief (in reply to Pgh_flamenco)

That's probably because I based it on pictures of Di Meola's Conde that my client emailed me.

I've thought about truss rods, but have not considered using them.

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Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 13 2022 14:36:32