Foro Flamenco
Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvir, Philip John Lee and Craig Eros who went ahead of us too soon.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





Buzzing more with higher tension   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1684
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

Buzzing more with higher tension 

Hi All,

A guitar of mine, a Lazarides (model Reyes) buzzed a little too much for my taste. Using Addario EJ 46 hard tension.Frets where levelled out, and it is ok, buzzes still a bit, but it is low action, so ok.
Last week I tried for the first time medium (Addario EJ 45) strings, and it is a big differents, nearly no buzzing at all.

What happens here? The string hight is the same, 2.5 mm at 6th string.
I was always thinking that higher tension = less buzz…

Could it be, the sound wave, the amplitude wave, is on a different spot?

Oh, and, the top is quiet stiff, and the guitar have long sustain. 655mm.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2021 18:38:47
 
Echi

 

Posts: 974
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Buzzing more with higher tension (in reply to gerundino63

Action at 2.5 mm calls for buzzing anyway. A properly worked fretboard and maybe a top on the stiff side can minimise the issue.
Logic tells us that high tension strings bend less than low tension and therefore the vibrational wave has less amplitude. In theory Nt strings should make less buzzing.
I guess the guitar may have less buzzing for a different humidity rate or other factors?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2021 19:14:06
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1684
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Buzzing more with higher tension (in reply to Echi

It is for me a riddle too. It is not the humidity I think, because putting on other strings takes 5 minutes.

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2021 19:22:36
 
bahen

Posts: 318
Joined: Mar. 4 2006
 

RE: Buzzing more with higher tension (in reply to gerundino63

The hard tension strings have a greater diameter, so they sit a tiny bit closer to the guitar and probably explain the buzz question. See the diameter specs here:

https://www.daddario.com/products/guitar/classical-guitar/pro-arte-composite/ej46c-pro-arte-composite-hard-tension/

https://www.daddario.com/products/guitar/classical-guitar/pro-arte-nylon/ej45-pro-arte-nylon-normal-tension/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2021 10:55:49
 
Echi

 

Posts: 974
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Buzzing more with higher tension (in reply to gerundino63

This can be a good idea; I had though to that also but eventually it's difficult to assess.
Some times HT strings do not seat very deep at the nut slots which goes towards minimising the difference in caliber; other times a little higher string tension goes towards a slight bending of the neck with higher tension which minimises again the difference . In my old Conde HT strings used to raise the action from 0.3 to 0.5 mm. to come back to normal with normal tension strings.
Obviously in your case, all these variables just don't happen.
I also thought the problem may not exactly a buzz but an odd resonance, but I can't assess it really.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2021 11:16:39
 
bahen

Posts: 318
Joined: Mar. 4 2006
 

RE: Buzzing more with higher tension (in reply to Echi

quote:

In my old Conde HT strings used to raise the action from 0.3 to 0.5 mm. to come back to normal with normal tension strings.


Wow, that's crazy. Are you sure it was the strings? I recently posted a thread on hard tension strings and neck angle, and the consensus seemed to be the that the differences between normal, hard, and extra hard tensions were not sufficient to alter the neck angle unless there was an underlying structural issue.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2021 15:35:34
 
Echi

 

Posts: 974
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Buzzing more with higher tension (in reply to gerundino63

Well, in this case it's just the neck bending a little + the top popping up a little more. This doesn't alter the neck angle as the effect stops with other strings.
Some old guitars are just more flexible as built lighter than today standards.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2021 16:54:48
 
kitarist

Posts: 1454
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Buzzing more with higher tension (in reply to bahen

quote:

The hard tension strings have a greater diameter, so they sit a tiny bit closer to the guitar and probably explain the buzz question.


How would that be? It is their outer surface, not the geometric center, that sits on the saddle, and at the nut if anything they may sit higher in the slot due to their larger diameter but definitely not lower.

To the OP: Is it possible that you are trying habitually to displace the HT strings the same amount as the NT strings (which means you are using more effort), which in effect means you are playing the HT strings louder which somehow cancels any buzz-minimizing effect from the higher tension?

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2021 17:12:14
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13336
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Buzzing more with higher tension (in reply to gerundino63

quote:

What happens here? The string hight is the same, 2.5 mm at 6th string.
I was always thinking that higher tension = less buzz…


The only answer that makes sense to me is that you both attack and fret the guitar quite gently (it’s the only way I can prevent buzz on my own guitars that are lower than 3mm at 12). So the buzz with hard tension was from not fretting notes strong enough (especially barre chords versus single notes for example). That’s my best guess.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2021 18:11:54
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1539
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Buzzing more with higher tension (in reply to bahen

quote:

The hard tension strings have a greater diameter, so they sit a tiny bit closer to the guitar and probably explain the buzz question.

I hope you will pardon me for saying so, but I believe this is fallacious, since the bottom of the strings sit on the bottom of the nut slot and on the top of the saddle. Whatever you stretch between those two points will lie the same distance from the tops of the frets.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2021 19:46:22
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3308
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Buzzing more with higher tension (in reply to kitarist

quote:

How would that be? It is their outer surface, not the geometric center, that sits on the saddle, and at the nut if anything they may sit higher in the slot due to their larger diameter but definitely not lower.


Exactly.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2021 21:14:22
 
bahen

Posts: 318
Joined: Mar. 4 2006
 

RE: Buzzing more with higher tension (in reply to kitarist

quote:

It is their outer surface, not the geometric center, that sits on the saddle, and at the nut if anything they may sit higher in the slot due to their larger diameter but definitely not lower.


I stand corrected!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2021 14:00:12
Page:   [1]
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.03125 secs.