Friction tuners on a guitar

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bahen

Posts: 374
Joined: Mar. 4 2006

Friction tuners on a guitar

I've been wondering why one doesn't find friction tuners on guitars in the way one does with cellos, violins, etc. I've read and heard bits and pieces here and there claiming that friction tuners, given that they are all wood and don't introduce further composite materials to the instrument through which sound would need to travel, actually improve the sound quality of the instrument.

Would be curious to hear of the opinions on the Foro on this topic, though I hope it won't be as heated as the recent thread on tuners!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2021 5:34:49

Echi

Posts: 1080
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Friction tuners on a guitar (in reply to bahen)

The recent thread about tuners was not really about tuners in themselves but more about the second hand market of guitars. Difference of opinions but nothing heated.

My experience with friction tuners is that the tone of a guitar is not really affected by them. The advantage is that they are lighter than head tuners and you may barely perceive some more vibration on your left hand because of that.
I found them not that reliable though, particularly with humidity changes.
I used to have a light Bellido with pegs which I converted to a slotted guitar with conventional machine heads. I can witness the modification was almost not perceivable in terms of tone, loudness or else. I’d say I enjoyed much more the guitar with machine heads but that’s personal.
I also converted an old Conde on a customer request and he had the same experience.
In this case the headstock looks 8 mm shorter than usual. If it was me I would have gone for mechanical tuners but this thing is more love or hate..

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2021 12:37:02

Ricardo

Posts: 14234
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Friction tuners on a guitar (in reply to Echi)

I concur to all above. It’s about weight and left hand feel, humidity change can cause troubles you never have with machines, and the sound is not affected.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2021 14:37:19

bahen

Posts: 374
Joined: Mar. 4 2006

RE: Friction tuners on a guitar (in reply to bahen)

Cheers guys. I'm wondering why more classical violinists and cellists don't switch to machines if reliability is such an issue as compared to friction pegs. Is the reliability a major issue or something quite minor? I ask because I'm in the process of deciding what to have on my next guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2021 17:14:44

Echi

Posts: 1080
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Friction tuners on a guitar (in reply to bahen)

Tradition I guess. Violin took his role in the orchestra and his definite shape much earlier than guitar.
To be clear: good friction pegs work just fine for normal use and some people appreciate them for their "organic" feeling and lightness. If you travel often with a guitar or find yourself playing a concert, the last thing you want is to have issues with friction pegs though.
At the beginning the thing will do his job properly (if they are well made): problems may appear after some time and use but as you say, you can also learn to fix them as the violin players do. I for one think it doesn't worth the hassle but it's just me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2021 20:56:59

Morante

Posts: 2081
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Friction tuners on a guitar (in reply to bahen)

I have had 2 guitars with pegs: worked fine. All cabezas de guitarra son más bonitas con palillios (even Condes

) My only regret is that my personal guitar has machines, but I had no choice at the time. If I ever to buy another guitar, it would have real pegs and not the horrible pseudo pegs which some people have used to destroy an original guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 28 2021 22:23:54

Schieper

Posts: 208
Joined: Mar. 29 2017
From: The Netherlands

RE: Friction tuners on a guitar (in reply to bahen)

I have pseude pegs on one guitar and do not feel ofended by Morante :-)
In tuning they are less comfortable than machine heads but not so much it bothers me.

Interesting quetsion though wy cello and violin continue using friction pegs.

Found this article:
https://www.thestrad.com/lutherie/geared-pegs-why-isnt-everyone-using-them/7862.article

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2021 13:06:04

Morante

Posts: 2081
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Friction tuners on a guitar (in reply to Schieper)

quote:

I have pseude pegs on one guitar and do not feel ofended by Morante :-)

No offence intended. Anyone who buys a new guitar has a right to ask for what he wants. But I have worked in a taller for several years, Jeronimo Perez is family, intimate friend and we have worked together. I have seen the love and care that a luthier puts into every guitar.

What offends me is when somebody buys, secondhand, a guitar which was made with pegs and proceeds to modify it and devalue the intentions of its creator.

I once had to convert a beautiful guitar from Jaen from pegs to machines because the constructor had placed the pegs so low in the cabeza that the guitar could not be played open: the pegs touched the wrist. But the conversion caused me pain though it made the guitar playable

Un saludo

Morante

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2021 15:57:23

bahen

Posts: 374
Joined: Mar. 4 2006

RE: Friction tuners on a guitar (in reply to Schieper)

Excellent article, many thanks for sharing that.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2021 16:37:38

bahen

Posts: 374
Joined: Mar. 4 2006

RE: Friction tuners on a guitar (in reply to Morante)

quote:

All cabezas de guitarra son más bonitas con palillios (even Condes )

Not trying to be cheeky, but honestly curious to know why you say 'even Condes'!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2021 16:47:55

Morante

Posts: 2081
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Friction tuners on a guitar (in reply to bahen)

quote:

Not trying to be cheeky, but honestly curious to know why you say 'even Condes'!

Just a joke, mainly for mi amigo el Maestro Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2021 17:48:55

Morante

Posts: 2081
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Friction tuners on a guitar (in reply to bahen)

https://www.danzeffguitars.com/productpages/flamenco-guitars-1992-Hermanos-Conde-Flamenco-wpegs-Spain-513.cfm

This is an example of the sacriledge to which I refer.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2021 18:45:19

bahen

Posts: 374
Joined: Mar. 4 2006

RE: Friction tuners on a guitar (in reply to Morante)

quote:

This is an example of the sacriledge to which I refer.

Is this one of those pegs with the gears inside the peg? Because I don't see any gears on the backside of headstock even though the description says mechanical pegs have been installed.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2021 19:00:38

Echi

Posts: 1080
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Friction tuners on a guitar (in reply to bahen)

The gears are actually invisible as they are inside the pegs: if you look for a technical picture of Pegheads you’ll find what I mean.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2021 19:56:04

Schieper

Posts: 208
Joined: Mar. 29 2017
From: The Netherlands

RE: Friction tuners on a guitar (in reply to bahen)

As I have no real life, I did some googling. Some other reasons mentioned why Violin and Cello builders still use pegs:

- For Violin the weight distribution is a factor plus the area at the end is so small that there is no room for mechanics.
- Fine tuning happens now sometimes at some tuners at the bridge.
- It is a verry cheap construction and every builder can change or replace these pegs.
- you can not adjust thickness of mechanical pegs so have to change the peghole.
- All celle and violin players are trained with this so there is no problem for players that needs to be adressed.

Different sound qualities are mentioned no where.

My mechanical pegs have to be chalked as well from time to time as they otherwise start to slip in the peghole. PLus they have an internal push-pull mechanisme that sometimes slips with high tension strings.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 29 2021 20:49:02

bahen

Posts: 374
Joined: Mar. 4 2006

RE: Friction tuners on a guitar (in reply to Schieper)

Interesting, thanks for digging. Does anyone have any experience with the geared pegs, i.e., the 'Pegheds' or similar? Would be curious to know what they're like.

Don't imagine Paco's using the geared versions here:

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2021 3:11:42

ernandez R

Posts: 667
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Friction tuners on a guitar (in reply to bahen)

Hmmm...

I noticed quite the difference with pegs, the headstock material maters as does the peg material. I can hear the difference. I can actually hear the guitar in the peghead when I focus. In the end I think it has a lot to do with the whole guitar as a system and its a sum of all the parts that make the playing experience.

I'm buildin 900-1100gm lightweights and that migh have somthing to do with it?

Could be if I'm hearing sound from th peg head I'm wasting sound energy best concentrated on projecting from the top plate?

On the other hand one reason I'm building such light guitars is I feel the structure keeps the sound close and incandescent the personal experience, not all of us are playing professionally or even in a group setting, when someone first plays one of mine the first thing they note is how light they are of course but next the almost always add, wow you can really feel it when you are playing. I feel the peg head is part of the full experience equation.

And heck ya, they look cool as ****, vary Flamenco!

HR

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2021 5:49:04

Schieper

Posts: 208
Joined: Mar. 29 2017
From: The Netherlands

RE: Friction tuners on a guitar (in reply to bahen)

Yes Bahen,

I have geared peg's.
- I like the look of a peghead
- Changing strings is more easy
- Up close they look ugly as there are windings on.
- the gear ratio is higher than on a machine head. So you have a smaller area of tuning.. But that is okay
- one disadvantage is they occasionaly slip. Expecially on verry HT strings. I had to add chalk to the pegholes begause some pegs just slip within the peghole. There is a push/pull mechanism within the pegs so that you have, after tuning, push the knob into the peg slightly. This does not awlays hold well and lossens over time.
- They are not well alligned; Meaning they are not all straight and not all exactly on the same distance in the peghole.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2021 14:23:07

etta

Posts: 333
Joined: Jan. 20 2010

RE: Friction tuners on a guitar (in reply to bahen)

Have converted two guitars from friction pegs to "pegheds"; the pegheds work consistently well. Correct installation is important so that all pegs are seated to the same depth.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 30 2021 16:05:18