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ernandez R

Posts: 485
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

Strategies batching peonies 

I've got a few off cut blocks from my WRC and AYC billets and was wondering about ways to sensibly cut them up into little triangles.

None of the pieces are more then 4-5 inches along the grain so ripping strips is not happening. I've got a thin kerf, 020" blade, on my band saw so hoping to use it to limit kerf waste.

Any ideas appreciated

Oh ya, to keep it confrontational like geopolitical or environmental: what grain direction is preferred ;) ?



HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 26 2021 22:45:28
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Strategies batching peonies (in reply to ernandez R

The old fashioned way to work short blocks if cut off wood -

Cut them rough 20mm x 16 mm, plane smooth on all sides so you end up with something like 18 x 15 ?

Then using a band saw or hand saw cut them off at 8mm so you have a box full of blocks that are 18 x 15 x 8 mm

Then as you use them one by one take a 2” wide chisel on a block of hardwood and hold the chisel with one corner on the wood and the other corner of the blade elevated. Place a block under the blade on the diagonal and then using the corner as the pivot point slice the block into two trianglar pieces.

Usually I don’t bother with short cut offs to make my blocks but if you just want to make a guitars worth of blocks this method is fast if you concentrate.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 27 2021 7:06:35
 
ernandez R

Posts: 485
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Strategies batching peonies (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

The old fashioned way to work short blocks if cut off wood -

Cut them rough 20mm x 16 mm, plane smooth on all sides so you end up with something like 18 x 15 ?

Then using a band saw or hand saw cut them off at 8mm so you have a box full of blocks that are 18 x 15 x 8 mm

Then as you use them one by one take a 2” wide chisel on a block of hardwood and hold the chisel with one corner on the wood and the other corner of the blade elevated. Place a block under the blade on the diagonal and then using the corner as the pivot point slice the block into two trianglar pieces.

Usually I don’t bother with short cut offs to make my blocks but if you just want to make a guitars worth of blocks this method is fast if you concentrate.



Thanx Stephan, hoping to make a little time tomorrow am to cut up a few guitars worth. Damn foot said no joy this evening :/

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 28 2021 4:20:49
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2252
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Strategies batching peonies (in reply to ernandez R

I know this is a little off topic, peonies compared to solid lining, but I have had good success with solid lining on my Reyes style pattern by solid lining forcing the sound back into the top rather than sound being absorbed into the sides with individual pieces glued side by side.

What I mean by this is that I incorporated the Miguel Rodriguez style 2 part laminate solid lining for the top, and it worked to provide better projection/volume/cutting edge distinction for the sound.

This has been my finding for this model.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 28 2021 15:25:36
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1488
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Strategies batching peonies (in reply to ernandez R

Peones vs peonies





Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 28 2021 16:51:48
 
ernandez R

Posts: 485
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Strategies batching peonies (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

I know this is a little off topic, peonies compared to solid lining, but I have had good success with solid lining on my Reyes style pattern by solid lining forcing the sound back into the top rather than sound being absorbed into the sides with individual pieces glued side by side.

What I mean by this is that I incorporated the Miguel Rodriguez style 2 part laminate solid lining for the top, and it worked to provide better projection/volume/cutting edge distinction for the sound.

This has been my finding for this model.





Tom,
Ya I hear you about the solid linings and I've used back kerfed for all my tops so far. I've got a couple classical and Flamencas on the bench and I'm doing lamanated linings: hickory fit the classical and spruce for the Flamencas

I'm doing up poines ( thanx Ethan for the spelling heads up ) for my next traditional builds a la Hernandez A etc.

To be honest I am struggling still with my foot and a lot of summer chores but wanted somthing easy to do in the shop to keep moving forward so when it slows down next month I can make magic with wood and glue.

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 28 2021 19:59:35
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Strategies batching peonies (in reply to ernandez R

There is zero empirical evidence that solid liners ‘force the sound back into the top’.
It’s just more anecdotal reading of a thing that hasn’t been tested or proved.
It’s been a topic that comes up over and over again.

It’s about isolating the top by creating a stiffer rim with stiffer ribs. This is a way to change the sound by making back and side systems that vibrate less. Isolation of the top doesn’t necessarily increase volume. Glue blocks and solid liners of the same dimensions are not that different once the top is glued on and provides sheer in plane with the rim.

Thin sides with glue block or solid liner are about the same thing once the top provides the sheer plane. The change really starts when the sides become significantly heavier and stiffer, in fact part of that Blanca sound is coming off of the ribs being thin.
Look at Torres’ structure, and late Santos when he used solid liners. They aren’t especially ‘loud’ , and they have thin ribs, they are built for a kind of sound quality. And Rodriguez’ guitars are thin like skin over a frame. They have a certain sound quality. Compare with makers who worked with thick stiff sides. Different sound envelope that accentuates other sound quality that’s not like a blanca. Freiderich’s sound is a thick rib stiff body sound.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 29 2021 8:47:46
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2252
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Strategies batching peonies (in reply to estebanana

quote:

There is zero empirical evidence that solid liners ‘force the sound back into the top’.
It’s just more anecdotal reading of a thing that hasn’t been tested or proved.
It’s been a topic that comes up over and over again.


Stephen, from a layman's point of view and from my own experiment, I found improvement with the solid lining laminate for the Reyes style.

No doubt that there will be different opinions. I've tried this technique on Barbero and Santos patterns and it works well.

Taking into consideration that most builders will graduate their tops differently from one guitar to the next.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 29 2021 13:53:55
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Strategies batching peonies (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:


Stephen, from a layman's point of view and from my own experiment, I found improvement with the solid lining laminate for the Reyes style.

No doubt that there will be different opinions. I've tried this technique on Barbero and Santos patterns and it works well.

Taking into consideration that most builders will graduate their tops differently from one guitar to


Well I’m definitely not a layman and there is no empirical work done on solid liners vs blocks. Any opinion based on this is entirely anecdotal.

I may as well walk out into a field of radishes and converse with them.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 29 2021 15:33:35
 
Stu

Posts: 1923
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Strategies batching peonies (in reply to ernandez R

https://youtu.be/6KupYrzeVag

Is this helpful? Not sure if this exactly addresses what you're asking. But decent vid anyway. Perhaps you've seen it.
I've been making peones recently and haven't enjoyed it one bit really.

Results were ok. Ish. Not exactly the perfect uniformed peones I wanted. Guess they won't really be seen... But I'll know!

Like the heart bearing under the floor boards in Edgar Allan poe novel...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 5 2021 19:32:49
 
JasonM

Posts: 1695
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Strategies batching peonies (in reply to Stu

Stu! How’s the building/ shop project been going?

I also used Pablo’s video to make peones. They turned out ok but still not uniform in height after cleaning up the edges from the bandsaw. This jig did work well, but I don’t know if I will be able to repeat the exact dimensions next time I use it.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 5 2021 20:02:18
 
Stu

Posts: 1923
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Strategies batching peonies (in reply to JasonM

Hey Jason!

Yeah I made that jig. I'm not happy with it though.

I mean it got the job done..But it's not accurate..
The whole trigonometry thing gets to me. Triangles, degrees, etc.

I don't have the clearance under my home made drum sander to clean then up like pablo says..so I have to get them as close to final size with the cut. Next time will be different.

The guitar build is ticking on now. Its slow!!

Had my second child in April and started a big job. So finding time is hard... I do an hr or so nightly after everyone is in bed. But im usually tired by then too. So not ideal. (Yearn for the life of a bachelor sometimes! 😄)

I'm at the peones stage. Did my sides again..(after toasting the first set) they are great. All in the mold. Second half of the lower bout peones to do. Then it's profile on the sides and close it up....

The mobile workshop is still on the cards... But due to the above mentioned life obstacles... That feels like too grand a project right now.

I'll try and upload some build pics. But I find it very difficult with file sizes n that. Just puts me off
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 5 2021 20:51:09
 
Stu

Posts: 1923
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Strategies batching peonies (in reply to JasonM

Just followed you on Instagram Jason.

pics on there of my build if you care to peek. Cant upload here

Your reyes build looks fantastic man! nice one!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2021 9:22:42
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1488
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Strategies batching peonies (in reply to ernandez R

Here's a page from my notebook showing how I make stock for peones. I use a tables saw, a bandsaw, a jointer, and a drum sander, but the latter two machines could be replaced with a hand plane. I work a comfortable length of wood, about 18 inches. I use the bandsaw so I can leave the table saw set up for the angled cut. I make angled cuts on both edges on the table saw, then rip both edges on the bandsaw, joint, repeat.




Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2021 17:35:12
 
JasonM

Posts: 1695
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Strategies batching peonies (in reply to Stu

quote:

pics on there of my build if you care to peek. Cant upload here

Your reyes build looks fantastic man! nice one!


Cool I’ll check it out! And congrats on the new child and job. Props to you for keeping up the building at the same time!

Ethan, man what a simple way to do it versus the Pablo method Stu and I used. The jointer is kind of the secret. Thanks for sharing
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2021 23:50:10
 
Stu

Posts: 1923
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Strategies batching peonies (in reply to JasonM

Thanks man. I go into the workshop (ramshackle garage) once everyone is sleeping, even just for an hr. Its easy during these warmer months but I can't see it happening once the winter arrives!

Thanks for that note book shot ethan. I love stuff like that! I forgot to trim the sharp point on the peones. urgh. so had a few issues with them curling away at the top. will not forget on the next batch.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2021 7:26:56
 
RobF

Posts: 1116
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Strategies batching peonies (in reply to Stu

quote:

I forgot to trim the sharp point on the peones. urgh. so had a few issues with them curling away at the top. will not forget on the next batch.

Hi Stu, one thing you can also do is keep a small artist’s paintbrush and cup of water nearby and use it to slightly wet the outer part of the peone after it’s been glued on. If you don’t have a brush, even a fingertip dipped into the water will do. This will counteract the dampness from the glue and hopefully reduce curling. It will often also help to close up or reduce any hole left behind from a knife point or scribe, if one is used to spear the peone to accommodate putting it into place.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2021 15:17:58
 
JasonM

Posts: 1695
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Strategies batching peonies (in reply to RobF

Now that is a pro tip!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2021 21:18:41
 
Stu

Posts: 1923
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Strategies batching peonies (in reply to RobF

Thanks rob! yes I had a little lid full of water and was using the ol' finger tip to apply water. Was mostly successful.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2021 7:48:58
 
ernandez R

Posts: 485
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Strategies batching peonies (in reply to RobF

Rob,

Thanx for the advice. I've cut up a few guitars worth and hoping to start glueing in a week or so. I made both WRC and AYC peones cause ;)


HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2021 5:19:21
 
ernandez R

Posts: 485
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Strategies batching peonies (in reply to constructordeguitarras

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

Here's a page from my notebook showing how I make stock for peones. I use a tables saw, a bandsaw, a jointer, and a drum sander, but the latter two machines could be replaced with a hand plane. I work a comfortable length of wood, about 18 inches. I use the bandsaw so I can leave the table saw set up for the angled cut. I make angled cuts on both edges on the table saw, then rip both edges on the bandsaw, joint, repeat.






Ethan, thanx for sharing your notes and process.

HR

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 27 2021 5:21:06
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