Foro Flamenco
Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvir, Philip John Lee and Craig Eros who went ahead of us too soon.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





Sisyphus and the Lutherie section   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
RobF

Posts: 1119
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

Sisyphus and the Lutherie section 

Hi, long one coming up....

There was a post about a guitar for sale that kind of went south a bit and it now seems to have been removed. But it contained some really significant points, at least in my opinion, made by both myself and estabanana, about the state of the Lutherie section and the relationship between the guitar makers who contribute to the section and the other members. I wish we would have had the opportunity to capture those points so we could have made a separate post. I think some of the ones made by Stephen were very important.

For my part, and I don’t know if it’s just me and due to how I present myself, but I’m beginning to wonder if the place is worth the effort. I have learned a lot from other makers on the Foro over the years and joined at a time when the continuance of the Foro was in question. I wanted to pay it back and also hoped that having some new blood contributing could help keep it happening.

I realize a lot of my posts are kind of just joking around, in part because I see no harm in the place being entertaining, but when I talk about guitar making my posts are sincere and informed. I may not get everything right, and I often bang out my responses pretty quickly, but I’ve also spent hours, even days, preparing and researching some of my responses to people seeking information.

Recently, there has been a spate of new members who don’t seem to have any appreciation that they are talking to real-world competent guitar makers who are well-versed and capable. There seems to be this idea that we are just a bunch of wannabes spouting opinions, but that’s not the case. The makers on here are, and I include myself in this group, kick-ass at their craft and they make world class guitars which can stand proudly beside the instruments of pretty well any other maker alive. And that’s not an opinion, it’s a f*cking fact.

So, for me, I think I’m done...at least for now. I don’t like the lack of respect and the rudeness, and recently I’ve found myself getting sucked into the morass. There’s been a few too many posts by people who clearly don’t know their butts from holes in the ground who too quickly will label anything they don’t want to hear as simply being “an opinion” and dismiss the fact that the person trying to help them actually might know what they’re talking about...and forget about expecting even a word of thanks or acknowledgement for the effort. It’s like they think the Foro owes them something. It’s idiotic and it’s not worth the aggravation dealing with that level of ignorance. When I joined, it was because I felt I owed the Foro something, not the other way around, and that has been my stance ever since that moment.

I really and genuinely value the acquaintances and friendships I’ve formed here, but I really think I should take a break, it’s affecting my happiness. That might seem thin-skinned, but after a number of years of actually taking the place quite seriously and sincerely attempting to contribute to its health and success, I guess a person can start to feel they have a vested interest. I don’t know. But it’s been a source of disappointment recently, so clearly it’s time for a break.

I really regret that the other post was removed, because Stephen managed to sum up my feelings on the subject in a far more elegant manner than I’ve just done.

This isn’t one of those hand-on-forehead good-bye posts, BTW, I’ll probably be back around as soon as I can think up a good joke. But as far as helping people in the Lutherie section goes, maybe I’ll be more careful and vet the people I respond to. I’m only really interested in spending the time and effort on working with sincere and respectful people. The funny thing is , I can tell pretty quickly who is going to end up making a nice guitar, Jason and Jonas being good examples. I knew right away those two would do great work. There are others who come along where I just think...good luck.

Simon, if you could bring back the points made by Stephen and me in that other post, or send them to me, I could cut and paste them over all the blather I just wrote. But I think the time is due for people to understood what some of the contributing makers to the Lutherie section have been going through. It’s not always pleasant, because we really do care about furthering the craft, and some weeks it feels like an uphill battle against the same recurring BS, over and over and over again. Kind of like Sisyphus.

Give me a day or so and I’ll probably pull a Piwin on this post, or condense it into something more meaningful, so please nobody go copying the whole darned thing and responding to it. That wouldn’t be a very nice thing to do. I want what I’ve just said to be put out there, but not necessarily forever. But I think it needs to be heard. If only for a few days.

Really, I’d rather just the salient points of the deleted post be returned, they said it better.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 16 2021 23:13:38
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1488
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Sisyphus and the Lutherie section (in reply to RobF

I haven't had your experiences on the forum, but I was forced to give up making detailed posts with pictures, because no matter how I resize them, all the pictures I try to post are rejected as being too large. And in addition, I stopped receiving any notifications long ago, and have mentioned it several times. For example, I won't receive notifications when someone replies to this post although I've checked the box and checked that my email address is correctly listed. So when someone asks a question and I know an answer, I give a simple response. I wish I could share more.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 16 2021 23:39:42
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2254
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Sisyphus and the Lutherie section (in reply to RobF

quote:

It’s idiotic and it’s not worth the aggravation dealing with that level of ignorance. When I joined, it was because I felt I owed the Foro something, not the other way around, and that has been my stance ever since that moment.


I don't know if I ever said this but I enjoy your posts and have learned from them. I don't care how long a guitar maker has been building, there is always something they can learn from this list.

Perhaps we should nicely reveal to the new comers what our credits are, and then judge accordingly as to whether we want to spend time trying to answer their lack of knowledge.

_____________________________

Tom Blackshear Guitar maker
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 16 2021 23:47:55
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Sisyphus and the Lutherie section (in reply to RobF

Rob, get out of your head. Drink a beer, go for a swim.

I thought the best part of that thread was when I finally revealed I was an AI program created in Japan in 2003.

I am not sentient, I am programmed to create jokes.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 17 2021 0:49:57
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3247
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Sisyphus and the Lutherie section (in reply to estebanana

Actually the now-deleted thread was just fine until a certain busybody took it upon himself to lecture us on his self-perceived moral superiority.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 17 2021 13:21:06
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Sisyphus and the Lutherie section (in reply to BarkellWH

I thought the now deleted thread had a lot of comedy potential, but I’m glad it’s gone because it cheapened a professional makers instruments and that just doesn’t feel good. Simon probably has a good reason to remove it.

_____________________________

https://www.stephenfaulkguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 17 2021 15:16:25
 
Pali

 

Posts: 135
Joined: Apr. 4 2021
 

RE: Sisyphus and the Lutherie section (in reply to RobF

Robf said......."

Hi, long one coming up....

There was a post about a guitar for sale that kind of went south a bit and it now seems to have been removed. But it contained some really significant points, at least in my opinion..........



Nooooo Why? It's simple, you just have to have fun and ignore what you don't like ...





Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

_____________________________

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 17 2021 15:20:18
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13007
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Sisyphus and the Lutherie section (in reply to Pali

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pali

Hi, long one coming up....

There was a post about a guitar for sale that kind of went south a bit and it now seems to have been removed. But it contained some really significant points, at least in my opinion, made by both myself and estabanana, about the state of the Lutherie section and the relationship between the guitar makers who contribute to the section and the other members. I wish we would have had the opportunity to capture those points so we could have made a separate post. I think some of the ones made by Stephen were very important.

For my part, and I don’t know if it’s just me and due to how I present myself, but I’m beginning to wonder if the place is worth the effort. I have learned a lot from other makers on the Foro over the years and joined at a time when the continuance of the Foro was in question. I wanted to pay it back and also hoped that having some new blood contributing could help keep it happening.

I realize a lot of my posts are kind of just joking around, in part because I see no harm in the place being entertaining, but when I talk about guitar making my posts are sincere and informed. I may not get everything right, and I often bang out my responses pretty quickly, but I’ve also spent hours, even days, preparing and researching some of my responses to people seeking information.

Recently, there has been a spate of new members who don’t seem to have any appreciation that they are talking to real-world competent guitar makers who are well-versed and capable. There seems to be this idea that we are just a bunch of wannabes spouting opinions, but that’s not the case. The makers on here are, and I include myself in this group, kick-ass at their craft and they make world class guitars which can stand proudly beside the instruments of pretty well any other maker alive. And that’s not an opinion, it’s a f*cking fact.

So, for me, I think I’m done...at least for now. I don’t like the lack of respect and the rudeness, and recently I’ve found myself getting sucked into the morass. There’s been a few too many posts by people who clearly don’t know their butts from holes in the ground who too quickly will label anything they don’t want to hear as simply being “an opinion” and dismiss the fact that the person trying to help them actually might know what they’re talking about...and forget about expecting even a word of thanks or acknowledgement for the effort. It’s like they think the Foro owes them something. It’s idiotic and it’s not worth the aggravation dealing with that level of ignorance. When I joined, it was because I felt I owed the Foro something, not the other way around, and that has been my stance ever since that moment.

I really and genuinely value the acquaintances and friendships I’ve formed here, but I really think I should take a break, it’s affecting my happiness. That might seem thin-skinned, but after a number of years of actually taking the place quite seriously and sincerely attempting to contribute to its health and success, I guess a person can start to feel they have a vested interest. I don’t know. But it’s been a source of disappointment recently, so clearly it’s time for a break.

I really regret that the other post was removed, because Stephen managed to sum up my feelings on the subject in a far more elegant manner than I’ve just done.

This isn’t one of those hand-on-forehead good-bye posts, BTW, I’ll probably be back around as soon as I can think up a good joke. But as far as helping people in the Lutherie section goes, maybe I’ll be more careful and vet the people I respond to. I’m only really interested in spending the time and effort on working with sincere and respectful people. The funny thing is , I can tell pretty quickly who is going to end up making a nice guitar, Jason and Jonas being good examples. I knew right away those two would do great work. There are others who come along where I just think...good luck.

Simon, if you could bring back the points made by Stephen and me in that other post, or send them to me, I could cut and paste them over all the blather I just wrote. But I think the time is due for people to understood what some of the contributing makers to the Lutherie section have been going through. It’s not always pleasant, because we really do care about furthering the craft, and some weeks it feels like an uphill battle against the same recurring BS, over and over and over again. Kind of like Sisyphus.

Give me a day or so and I’ll probably pull a Piwin on this post, or condense it into something more meaningful, so please nobody go copying the whole darned thing and responding to it. That wouldn’t be a very nice thing to do. I want what I’ve just said to be put out there, but not necessarily forever. But I think it needs to be heard. If only for a few days.

Really, I’d rather just the salient points of the deleted post be returned, they said it better.



Nooooo Why? It's simple, you just have to have fun and ignore what you don't like ...






He said don’t cut and paste what he wrote. Smh

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 17 2021 15:41:30
 
Escribano

Posts: 6254
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Sisyphus and the Lutherie section (in reply to Pali

quote:

Simon, if you could bring back the points made by Stephen and me in that other post, or send them to me, I could cut and paste them over all the blather I just wrote


It's gone as requested. It may have been a cheap way to advertise, may be not. This forum is what you all make it, too many rules and moderation will ruin it, we have seen that before.

Subscription notifications are not working because we are limited on how many email we can send out because of spam controls.

_____________________________

Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 17 2021 15:58:58
 
RobF

Posts: 1119
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Sisyphus and the Lutherie section (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

He said don’t cut and paste what he wrote. Smh

OMFG....you guys are freaking impossible. SMH, indeed...

I think Bill hit the nail on the head with respect to the OP of the other thread, although a quick check shows he signed up with his real name and uses his username on other platforms. He also seems to be a big fan of the maker and owns or owned at least one of his classical instruments. So, he was probably just trying to do a solid for a friend, and didn’t realize he’d get blowback for ignoring the TOS. But, as was said, even if done in innocence it was a pretty transparent end run around the rules, which are pretty reasonable and easy ones to adhere to. So calling it out was the right thing to do, IMO.

It’s happened to me, too. That bloody Piwin called me out for my Karnak sock puppet and I got a slap on the wrist and the account was locked, so it happens. A huge amount of comedic potential was lost in the process, but rules are rules, as they say...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 17 2021 16:18:05
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1488
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Sisyphus and the Lutherie section (in reply to Escribano

quote:

Subscription notifications are not working because we are limited on how many email we can send out because of spam controls.

Thanks for that insight. Any idea what my photo-posting problem could be?

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 17 2021 18:58:31
 
ernandez R

Posts: 493
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Sisyphus and the Lutherie section (in reply to RobF

and didn't Sisyphus quit his ceaseless labor, sit upon the stone he was want to carry endlessly up the mountain, if only to admire the lovely lyre playing of Orpheus?

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 18 2021 6:00:08
 
ernandez R

Posts: 493
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Sisyphus and the Lutherie section (in reply to constructordeguitarras

quote:

ORIGINAL: constructordeguitarras

quote:

Subscription notifications are not working because we are limited on how many email we can send out because of spam controls.

Thanks for that insight. Any idea what my photo-posting problem could be?



Ethan,

I bumped into a solution. I use a couple different iPhones, three and an iPad to be exact and a few years ago at the delcamp then the foro it became an issue. I all but gave up.

Then by pure chance I was fiddling with one of my cracked glass newish iDevices I noticed I could resize the photo during the upload choose the foto processe. Easy peasy. Doesn't work on my still untracked cracked iPhone 4s which I refuse to give up as my primary device and doesn't work on this first generation iPad I'm using to type this right now.

Ok,

First I click the Embed box so I don't forget later
Then I click the Click here to download

Then I click one of the, I better stop,to look..., Choose file buttons

Then I get a choice of where to download a photo or take one, I choose: Photo Library
At the bottom of the screen mine sez Actual size XXX: click on it

You will get a choice of small, med, large, actual size: I find medium always works.

Now the total of all four fotos must be less then 1024kb, I've bumped into this limit so go back and readjust.

This is all on a newer iPhone and it actually saves me from having to dick around with my laptop which is nice. Also works on the delcamp.

Hope this helps.

I've got a nice little digital Licia I would love to use more but I can't find the darn battery charger... the boss has the latest iPhone and it's almost as good but she keeps it gluesd to her soul so doubt I'll have a chance. Once I get a new phone it will not interface with my old laptop etc so I'm waiting it out, it's ether me or the technology ;$

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 18 2021 6:18:51
 
ernandez R

Posts: 493
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Sisyphus and the Lutherie section (in reply to Pali

Pali,

I do agree with you and it's basically my forum mantra. Just have fun.

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 18 2021 6:19:56
 
RobF

Posts: 1119
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Sisyphus and the Lutherie section (in reply to ernandez R

quote:

ORIGINAL: ernandez R
Pali,

I do agree with you and it's basically my forum mantra. Just have fun.

HR

Well, that’s generally been my Mantra, too, but there are limits.

This is a great place, I value it, and I have genuine affection and respect for the members I’ve met here. Some good friendships have been formed. But recently I’ve failed in holding to that mantra and I guess I’ve been taking the place, or myself, way too seriously. So, it’s probably a good idea to lay low for a while and put things back into perspective...no big deal....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 18 2021 10:37:51
 
RobF

Posts: 1119
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Sisyphus and the Lutherie section (in reply to constructordeguitarras

quote:

Thanks for that insight. Any idea what my photo-posting problem could be?

Ethan, I use an iPad and recently the ability for size selection became available and a lot of the hassle went away. There’s still some kind of weird picture rotation that happens, but if the picture is opened in the photo editor and slightly modified, then saved, it seems to prevent the rotation, no idea why. Also, each photo has to be embedded as a separate step or the size limit appears to be applied globally, instead of to the individual photos. Then, after the pictures are embedded, I submit the post, and immediately reopen it for edit it so I can move the links to the pictures into the text to make everything look slick - you know...text, picture, some more text, couple more pictures...looks pro.

If it’s an important post I’ll prepare everything in advance because I know time is going to be spent on editing to get the formatting right and it’s good to get it all in shape quickly before Pali can come along and copy the whole darned thing and repost it before I have a chance to get it all perfect.

It’s a little labour intensive, but it would be great if you could get it all working so you could post some more pictorials of your ideas and work.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 18 2021 11:21:58
 
timk

 

Posts: 13
Joined: Sep. 12 2018
 

RE: Sisyphus and the Lutherie section (in reply to RobF

As an extreme beginner this has been the single most helpful forum I have had the pleasure to frequent. After failing to find what I was looking for with the search, I reached out and was immediately sent to the correct article. And, when I had a valid question I had professional luthiers answer me! What could be better!? Please don't stop helping others with your witless banter and off colour content. It makes the beginner have hope that they are not blindly following this or that construction method and can reach out to real people. It's amazing!

So, we all must keep in mind that some people suck. And some people suck without meaning to and jump to defend themselves without a need.

I hope this encourages at least one of you to keep hanging out while I finish my first guitar over the next 12 years (at the rate I'm going).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 18 2021 19:03:17
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1488
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Sisyphus and the Lutherie section (in reply to ernandez R

Thanks, HR, but my phone (an android) doesn't take good pictures.

_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 19 2021 20:43:46
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1488
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Sisyphus and the Lutherie section (in reply to RobF

I think each of these videos may shed light onto what you are experiencing.





_____________________________

Ethan Deutsch
www.edluthier.com
www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 19 2021 20:45:22
Page:   [1]
All Forums >>Discussions >>Lutherie >> Page: [1]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.078125 secs.