Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performance material ? 2.) spicing them up

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joevidetto

Posts: 191
Joined: Jun. 15 2013

Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performance m...

Early in my learning, I bought Paco Pena's Toques - and the pieces were simple, catchy, and to my ear, very 'flamenco' - that's a great combination.

Though simple - to memorize them and play them at tempo (I only did 3, but not at tempo) - took quite some time.

I'm wondering who else worked through these pieces, what you thought of them, and if you think they work well in performance.... Now, played with the right 'pizazz' - anything can work in performance, and I think the simplicity of these pieces would require some 'hamming up' (not being a buffoon, but a larger emphasis on tempo and dynamic changes). The pieces seem to leave opportunity for embellishing, but I can't seem to change the parts to make them more musically interesting - has anybody tried that ?

Paco Pena - Toques

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2021 14:26:41

ernandez R

Posts: 769
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to joevidetto)

Joe,

I have the book. What three did you play? Which did you find to be the easiest or rather which would you recommend to a beginner?

I chuckled some when you mentioned the pieces were simple but only because they seem inposable and out of the reach of my hands and mind.

I have a plan to revisit them this fall when things slow down a bit in my world and see if I can't nibble away at this elephant.

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2021 16:10:34

joevidetto

Posts: 191
Joined: Jun. 15 2013

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to ernandez R)

quote:

en you mentioned the pieces were simple but only because they seem inposable and out of the reach of my hands and mind.

Well - I didn't mean to be deceiving - they are much easier than the modern masters, but no - they are not easy for a beginner. I like atrafana's videos and exercises if the tecnique is still a big barrier for you, which is what might be why you find them difficult. And they are difficult to play at tempo. But in terms of left hand fingerings and syncopations, they are much easier than the masters.

There have been some discussions about best beginner books. If you share what point you're at I'm sure some other members will have great recommendations. Also do a search on best beginner books.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2021 17:47:42

joevidetto

Posts: 191
Joined: Jun. 15 2013

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to ernandez R)

quote:

Which did you find to be the easiest or rather which would you recommend to a beginner

I'm working on the Farruca now, which is easier in the sense that it's 4/4 and predictable.

Any 12 beat pattern is going to be a little more difficult, but I think the Soleares and Alegrias are good - but not for early beginners - you really need short passages focusing on the techniques and rhythms. Let me revisit my library and pm me.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jun. 30 2021 17:50:24

Morante

Posts: 2233
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to joevidetto)

Why try to spice them up? I once saw Paco in concert and he played the Columbianas note for note

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 1 2021 0:14:23

ernandez R

Posts: 769
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to joevidetto)

Thank you Joe for the offer to help. Super busy for the next four months but hope to dig back in early fall! I have a few other books. Had been hoping, pre covid, to get some one one on instruction combined with travil, you know that means Spain for us Americans.

When I first got the Toques Flamencos I had hoped I would be able to work on a couple of the pieces but no joy, should have started thirty years ago... Still I enjoy trying and find I can simplify parts here and there enough to get some satisfaction.

It's been a crazy 18 monthes, that's all I can say.

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 1 2021 7:15:35

agujetas

Posts: 60
Joined: Mar. 9 2021

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to Morante)

I’d agree with Morante. I don’t think they are easy pieces. If you can play them with anything like the feel and aire that Paco does then you’re doing pretty good. That would be my first aim, before even thinking about “spicing them up”.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 1 2021 8:41:49

gerundino63

Posts: 1756
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to joevidetto)

I used a lot of that book in performings.
Never spiced it up. They are good as they are.
Ofcourse you can always end “Herencia Latina” or the Colombianas with a Rumba kind strumming pattern

To spice up your whole performance, use some Rumba or Bulerias, Tangos, Or make a Rumba A la Camargue style. ( los Reyes, Gipsy kings style) people will love that.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 1 2021 10:03:02

Ricardo

Posts: 15164
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to joevidetto)

I had the book since before I could play flamenco. I read what he said about the rep being for students, however, years later I got the tape. THat is his normal top level playing, nothing is watered down. By that point I had gotten into his sources/inspiration (Montoya, Sabicas, Ricardo) and went straight there instead, sorry Paco.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 1 2021 15:11:16

frhout

Posts: 454
Joined: Apr. 28 2005
From: France

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to joevidetto)

I bought this book over 40 years ago, I then bought the vinyl without a gramophone at home. I attempted to play En Las Cuevas, Herencia Latina and El Nuevo Día, out of compás. I later got a Ferguson gramophone, the pieces were so pleasing to the ear when you are in compás. Many Paco's concert pieces evolve from these. You can play them beautifully after a couple of years of practice, or you can spend 40 years still struggling to achieve the fluency of the compás. With some experience, they are deceptively easy. Find these pieces on YouTube, you'll appreciate the full extent of the richness, or difficulty.

My original book was in tatters, I replaced it with a new one with CD about 20 years ago. CD is out of place now, and I have the music in mp3, I hope to replace it again in 20 years' time by something even more advanced.

The only rythym missing in this book is Bulerías which Paco probably thinks too challenging for us.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 1 2021 20:31:09

Morante

Posts: 2233
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to frhout)

This is probably the best introduction to solo flamenco guitar. The CD of Merengue with the cante of Churumbaque is the best for anyone to wants to begin to accompany.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 1 2021 21:56:37

FelixH

Posts: 31
Joined: Apr. 19 2018
From: London

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to joevidetto)

I have been meaning to revisit this book, I learned the first few tracks but got distracted by all the other books I bought at the same time.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2021 14:18:44

Escribano

Posts: 6429
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to Morante)

Best book, no question. But you do need the tape.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2021 14:41:19

gerundino63

Posts: 1756
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to Escribano)

The record, than tape, than cd, is completely on youtube.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1831ABB2BC93FCDE

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2021 16:50:45

agujetas

Posts: 60
Joined: Mar. 9 2021

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to gerundino63)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gerundino63

The record, than tape, than cd, is completely on youtube.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL1831ABB2BC93FCDE

I’d happily listen to it as an album, not just a learning resource. It may well all come from Montoya, Ricardo etc but isn’t that the case for everyone?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2021 18:47:17

Escribano

Posts: 6429
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to gerundino63)

Thanks Peter, but wherever it comes from, you need it to make any sense of the book. That was what I meant.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2021 22:26:06

Morante

Posts: 2233
Joined: Nov. 21 2010

[Deleted]

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jul. 5 2021 16:30:28

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 2 2021 23:17:33

gerundino63

Posts: 1756
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to Escribano)

Ah, thanks Simon, understood. That is the most importand.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 3 2021 11:37:28

zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to joevidetto)

Thanks for reminder about this awesome collection.
I remember this book from old times when I was in grad school (like 20 y ago) and seeing this in Austin, TX store. It had a tape attached to it at the time. I was just starting to be interested in learning some flamenco, but being a student and prudent of my budget I passed on the book at the time. I think the primary reason was that I could not first hear the music recorded, I would definitely get it if I had a chance to listen.

I think the book is in the same class as a few books by Juan Serrano. Some awesome didactic material if you want to have a workhorse of falsetas not overly complex but indeed catchy, smth you can use even if you are out of shape.

I went ahead and ordered it now. Thanks God, money is less of a problem for me these days :)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 4 2021 17:09:29

joevidetto

Posts: 191
Joined: Jun. 15 2013

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to joevidetto)

quote:

workhorse of falsetas not overly complex but indeed catchy, smth you can use even if you are out of shape.

Well put...that's exactly what I need to learn more of - for some cursed reason - I am incredibly attracted to PDL's falsetas. They take a long time to learn, and they're really hard to play (yet so pleasing to the ear lol) ...I definitely need to broaden my reportoire with the easier but 'good' (as in pleasing to my ear) falsetas.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 5 2021 15:19:38

Mark2

Posts: 1930
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to zendalex)

Sure some falsetas are easier to play. And some are incredibly difficult or impossible for many of us. I think though, that to play "easy" falsetas so that they sound good, is a difficult thing.

Gerardo Nunez, for example plays some things that are "simple" but he doesn't sound simple when he plays them. All his experience and talent are on display even when he plays the easiest technical moves. So many details such as tone, rhythmic accuracy, and intent are all required to sound good. Then there is the compas that surrounds it.....

If you record yourself playing a well known simple falseta and compare the result to a professional playing it, and it holds up, your good. I think the difficult part is figuring out where it may come up short, and devising the method to fix it. That is the trap with "simple" falsetas IMO. They need the same coat of polish the tough ones do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: zendalex

I think the book is in the same class as a few books by Juan Serrano. Some awesome didactic material if you want to have a workhorse of falsetas not overly complex but indeed catchy, smth you can use even if you are out of shape.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 5 2021 17:48:26

zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to joevidetto)

quote:

attracted to PDL's falsetas

Wondering who is not

Paco has such a broad spectrum of things he left and so many things which were well transcribed, that it is hard not to only try his stuff.

Speaking of which it is my problem as well, stuff I try is way over my head.. But who cares, as long as I enjoy it, the rest matters not.

But recently I feel even other stuff like Juan Serrano and Paco Pena are getting on my list as I feel I could play those more confidently (at least at my own tempo) but I still do like the music. Maybe it is not as complex as Paco's, I think I still get enough kick from it to go ahead and learn a falseta or two.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 6 2021 20:02:40

ipolit

Posts: 14
Joined: Jul. 1 2020
From: Veliko Tarnovo, BG

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to joevidetto)

I started to learn Santuario in January and still I am far away from fluid performance. Of course I am a complete beginner with almost no knowledge for the music. The good thing is that comparing my performance to some other on youtube, I think my is the best after Paco and Paola Hermosin. But still I am not ready to play it before someone different from my wife.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 10 2021 12:31:09

Posts: 524
Joined: Jun. 15 2006

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to joevidetto)

I find Paco Pena's playing extremely enjoyable to listen and watch. Something about his playing is majestic (my opinion of course). Although he keeps playing the same old style flamenco, he still fascinates me.

If I had to pinpoint to one thing, it would probably be his sound that he gets out of his guitar and his tone.

It is completely different than Paco de Lucia or Vicente, but to the ear, he is easy to listen to.

I like that book.

TK

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TK
http://www.youtube.com/user/Tsolakk

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2021 0:27:47

zendalex

Posts: 137
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to tk)

I've seen him in NYC. And maybe he did not overwhelm me with some crazy solos, but it was touching my heart. The whole atmosphere. His dancer was good as well. We were sitting on one of the front rows, so maybe that contributed. But both me and my wife recall that concert often.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2021 2:20:51

Echi

Posts: 1158
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to joevidetto)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 14 2021 19:15:02

joevidetto

Posts: 191
Joined: Jun. 15 2013

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to joevidetto)

While it leans more toward the 'traditional' - there is something about his playing that is less "stiff" than some of the other 'traditional' artists - his timing(especially) , phrasing, some of the harmony in the falsetas. I really like the performance you shared - much of it is better IMHO than what is in his Toques Flamenco book.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 22 2021 14:01:06

frhout

Posts: 454
Joined: Apr. 28 2005
From: France

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to frhout)

What is depressing is that when one can play almost as good as, or even "better" than Paco, Paco would still say, "Yes, you can play the music, but you don't understand it!" How about that to sap our enthusiasm!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 22 2021 19:52:40

Ricardo

Posts: 15164
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to frhout)

quote:

ORIGINAL: frhout

What is depressing is that when one can play almost as good as, or even "better" than Paco, Paco would still say, "Yes, you can play the music, but you don't understand it!" How about that to sap our enthusiasm!

Paco is not much of a “figura” in Spain, not because of his residence outside, but more because he did not establish any historic cante albums I am aware of. Sabicas lived in USA but his work with one of my favorite singers Pena Hijo, is a good example of what I mean. So the “understanding” part of the music is the art of accompaniment. My teacher really only has two albums, but even that little is enough to establish a reputation as a figura.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 23 2021 17:59:28

Echi

Posts: 1158
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Paco Pena Toques - 1.) performan... (in reply to joevidetto)

I'm not sure you are right in this case.
I suppose Sabicas is not known for his work of accompaniment but for the success of his solo albums in the 60'. I think some of his recordings had really a big impact because of his clean technique and musicality as a solo guitarist. There is also that his shows are among the first forecasted in tv.

Paco Pena didn't do too much as a composer of solo guitar really while he toured a lot with singers and dancers and worked as a teacher as well.
I'd say being the main flamenco figure in England in the golden era, he made a point in being faithful to the traditional flamenco guitar playing without adding anything new.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 24 2021 18:54:13