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RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge?   You are logged in as Guest
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Ricardo

Posts: 12992
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to zendalex

Anchoring or “resting” the thumb, regardless where you do it, takes tension out of the elbow. Overall it sets you up for more accuracy and volume with very little effort from the physical factors of the arm. People that say Paco would do better keeping his thumb up in the air are clueless. It basically feels secure and relaxed, but I admit when you first learn it it slows your speed WAY DOWN. I get why many players that are not used to it don’t want to slow down and get it, but simply put, until one slows down and gets used to that secure feeling, they won’t really know about what it feels like and why it is beneficial. A lot about is getting the bass note rest opposite the free fingers, like in tremolo but doing the notes together. I see students often “can’t” get the two notes simultaneously unless they pluck both freely. But it is a mental block that is easy to overcome by slowing way down.

Just watch how relaxed and smoothed this guy plays, and the resultant elegance in the sound. It is fairly standard going back at least as far as Ramon montoya who does the same. But if people are happy doing something else good for them.



_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2021 19:28:14
 
zendalex

Posts: 123
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to Ricardo

Thanks for your feedback, Ricardo. I heard the anchoring argument many times (in fact so far I only see Ruben saying the opposite openly on his video and Grisha saying similar things in private to me) and obviously I am not here to preach the non-anchoring thing. I was just sharing my experience, when after many years of practicing with thumb rest I tried the other way - and that other way actually taught me something about how I should play and what should I feel with the thumb rest. For me this is just an experiment - but for the past few years, if you ask me what was the most important thing which I tried - I will tell you - trying to play with no anchor and staccato practice (if we are talking picados).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2021 10:59:01
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12992
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to zendalex

quote:

I was just sharing my experience, when after many years of practicing with thumb rest


I see. Do you have any video of playing that way to compare to your recent work? I saw that Paco solea which was great. You were resting the thumb during tremolo, but otherwise it seemed like it was similar to how you played the buleria technique wise.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2021 16:27:10
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 555
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to Ricardo

Interesting stuff... Always try to plant my thumb firmly on the basses but recently I wondered about studying the Villa Lobos etude 1. Slowly there is totally time to replant the thumb in the treble section but would you do it at speed?

Anyways regarding the challenge.

Shall we say you have to submit a video based on the Paco tutorial 4. It can be what you can play... A simplification if needed.

Those that submit a video get to do the group class with Ricardo. I am happy to admin this part but Ricardo shall I message you in private or Facebook to work out how much? Obviously finding a date and time will be fun.

Shall we set up a dedicated challenge thread in the challenges section?

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2021 17:42:01
 
agujetas

 

Posts: 60
Joined: Mar. 9 2021
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to johnnefastis

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnnefastis

Interesting stuff... Always try to plant my thumb firmly on the basses but recently I wondered about studying the Villa Lobos etude 1. Slowly there is totally time to replant the thumb in the treble section but would you do it at speed?



I personally wouldn’t plant the thumb in VL Etude 1 because I wouldn’t want to stop the bass notes from ringing. Might be useful to do it as an exercise though. One of the advantages of planting the thumb is that you can use it to damp bass notes you don’t want to keep ringing but in this etude that wouldn’t be appropriate IMO.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2021 18:43:53
 
zendalex

Posts: 123
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I see. Do you have any video of playing that way to compare to your recent work?


Probably not something I am comfortable sharing as I had some time that I did not practice much and then whatever was even before that was so long ago that I am embarrassed to even watch it myself :)

Anyway sorry I did not want to hijack this topic into a different discussion. Will keep it on the falsetas.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2021 21:08:42
 
Schieper

 

Posts: 184
Joined: Mar. 29 2017
From: The Netherlands

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to johnnefastis

Hi Johnnefastics, Thanks for your confident in my playing :-) I get lost as soon as all of you start talking about major and minor and 6th or 7th. Sorry. You all tried to educate me about the circle of 7th but I do not get that either.. so if there is tab available I would not mind aquiering that and have a go..
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2021 21:30:07
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 555
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Anyway sorry I did not want to hijack this topic into a different discussion. Will keep it on the falsetas.


Carry on seems totally on topic to me! This falsetta is a great all round technique workout 🏋️‍♂️ Love to hear challenges it’s bringing up.

Will set up another thread just for the rules and entries soon.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2021 21:30:55
 
Filip

 

Posts: 284
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to johnnefastis

I will also do my best to participate, nice initiative.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2021 21:35:04
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12992
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to johnnefastis

quote:

Those that submit a video get to do the group class with Ricardo. I am happy to admin this part but Ricardo shall I message you in private or Facebook to work out how much?


I don’t see the need for that video pre submission . I’m sure there are people that want to observe or audit with no guitar in hand, as they can learn from watching others learn. I charge $50 for a private hour lesson, but for a group class it should be less I assume. I’m thinking just leave it open (free) and folks can hit my tip jar with whatever they think it was worth to them. Some people will find gold, others might not take away much they can use. I took a vocal lesson online for $100 about a specific technique and all I got back was “nope that is wrong. You will get it eventually”. Lol. I don’t want folks to pay for nothing. Obviously if somebody tips zero, then they won’t be joining in the future

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2021 19:03:44
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 555
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to Ricardo

That sounds perfect Ricardo and totally in the spirit of the the foro. You will have to show us the vocal technique now though ha ha
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2021 0:27:47
 
ernandez R

Posts: 485
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to Ricardo

Thought I would drop a few pasos and post a link to Ricrado's tip jar but noticed the link to his web page in his signiture didn't work for me?

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2021 16:01:47
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12992
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to ernandez R

quote:

ORIGINAL: ernandez R

Thought I would drop a few pasos and post a link to Ricrado's tip jar but noticed the link to his web page in his signiture didn't work for me?

HR


THanks for the heads up. My auto renewal didn’t go through on June 10, so I am straightening it out now! (Last Thursday someone tried to pay through my website for a CD on the gig and it didn’t work for them, I thought it was bad internet).

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2021 16:53:50
 
hamia

 

Posts: 378
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to zendalex

quote:

ORIGINAL: zendalex

quote:

anchoring the thumb


Ooh, that is the topic which there is no consensus around. You know I had a thumb tendon injury about 2 years ago, time I tried to play alzapua ad nauseam. Apparently did it with not enough relaxation in the thumb so screwed it a bit. And about that time Grisha lowered his rates and I jumped (being el cheepo) - he personally advised me to remove the thumb from 6th string. He said - you dont need the thumb for anything (here mostly mean arpeggios and picados). Of course it could be due to my injury, but we had a number of lessons with him after that and I repeatedly asked him about anchoring and he repeatedly said - I dont need to anchor. He showed me examples playing same things with and without anchoring.

My personal discovery was in fact that during picados, without anchoring the thumb, you should get to the point that the hand is stable due to your rest stroke ending up on the next string. The hand sort of anchors at precisely that moment when the finger goes through a string and rests on the next. In fact if I was to start from scratch - I would make sure to stress this - the hand must be stable regardless of the thumb being anchored or not. The staccato playing helps a lot to understand this concept.

And I guess I do practice these days this and that way, and both ways help each other. You do get more stability with thumb anchoring, but i firmly believe this is not the only way one should practice.



A few years ago I came across our friend Ruben's video in which he said Paco had strongly advised not to anchor the thumb during practice (but ok to anchor during performance). The point of this is related to picado. The hardest picado is string crossings ( in particular from bass strings to high strings). Before I saw this video I had always practiced with the thumb anchored but the free thumb technique (for practicing picado) makes perfect sense and is very useful. It helps to train the picado fingers to move smoothly from one string to the next. If the thumb is anchored then this movement is impeded to some extent. After a period of time the muscles/fingers learn the required movement across the strings and then the thumb can be lightly anchored if required (or can simply be rested on the strings).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2021 10:08:32
 
hamia

 

Posts: 378
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to hamia

quote:

ORIGINAL: zendalex

...you should get to the point that the hand is stable due to your rest stroke ending up on the next string. The hand sort of anchors at precisely that moment when the finger goes through a string and rests on the next.



Yes, this is what I realised after seeing Ruben's video and thinking about the process. The fingers have to move somehow from one string to the next. Where does the movement and stability come from? It comes mainly from the fingers constantly being in contact with the string as they move across. The elbow and shoulder are relaxed and adjust to follow the movement of the hand, which is controlled and stabilized by the fingers.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2021 13:01:05
 
zendalex

Posts: 123
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to hamia

quote:

Yes, this is what I realised after seeing Ruben's video and thinking about the process. The fingers have to move somehow from one string to the next. Where does the movement and stability come from? It comes mainly from the fingers constantly being in contact with the string as they move across. The elbow and shoulder are relaxed and adjust to follow the movement of the hand, which is controlled and stabilized by the fingers.


Yes, thanks for your feedback. I think it is a subtle point, as we see everybody plants when they perform. But my amateur view of things is:
1. There is no consistency in playing on trebles vs playing on basses. If we say we should plant on whatever string - it definitely is not happening when we move to playing on basses. So the logic of planting is just not consistent.
2. Planting although gives stability takes away flexibility of hand position, when you just starting to learn. You have to compress your hand more when planting, and that stiffens the hand somewhat. Removing the planting makes (at least my amateurish hands) more relaxed.
3. When you play without rest, you achieve stability by resting the finger on apoyando. When you anchor on the 6th you do not notice if your rest on apoyando is done correctly or not - the hand is stable either way.
So to me, if you achieve stability without rest - that is a good indicator your picado is performed right.
4. Anchoring encourages you to move your fingers more aggressively and with high amplitude (at least for me). The feeling becomes similar to tremolo, but I think picado is not exactly same as tremolo, but there is just some degree of similarity, which is sure not 100%

And yes, after going through this, I am noticing anchoring naturally more and more, but I go back and forth to make sure item 3. above
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2021 15:49:40
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12992
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to hamia

quote:

A few years ago I came across our friend Ruben's video in which he said Paco had strongly advised not to anchor the thumb during practice


What a crock. But if you guys want to justify the lack of ability/understanding of what is going on with these types of excuses then how are you gonna find out it is wrong? . I recommend just going very slow until you figure out how comfortable it is, then gradually take the speed back up to where you want it/were speed wise when you couldn’t do it.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2021 16:51:53
 
JasonM

Posts: 1695
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to zendalex

So if Paco said, “Hey Zendalex, sounds good but anchor your thumb” , you would say, “sorry Maestro, I got news. it’s restricting your movement.” ? And then turn around and tell it to Antonio Rey, Gerardo, Vicente, Tomatito etc…
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2021 17:57:30
 
Piwin

Posts: 3298
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to JasonM

If Paco said anything to me, I would immediately implement phase 3 of my zombie apocalypse survival plan.

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2021 18:10:26
 
zendalex

Posts: 123
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to JasonM

quote:

So if Paco said, “Hey Zendalex, sounds good but anchor your thumb” , you would say, “sorry Maestro, I got news. it’s restricting your movement.” ? And then turn around and tell it to Antonio Rey, Gerardo, Vicente, Tomatito etc…


In front of any of these guys I would be scared **** - less and thus under no circumstances it would sound good

Well anyway don't get me wrong I value the advice, just pointing that I heard other opinions from people far more advanced than myself. Also what I feel tells me certain things, but I might be doing something wrong on the first place, so my opinion about stuff is of just anecdotal value, but no more. Sharing it because I found this interesting for myself.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2021 19:13:40
 
hamia

 

Posts: 378
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

A few years ago I came across our friend Ruben's video in which he said Paco had strongly advised not to anchor the thumb during practice


What a crock. But if you guys want to justify the lack of ability/understanding of what is going on with these types of excuses then how are you gonna find out it is wrong? . I recommend just going very slow until you figure out how comfortable it is, then gradually take the speed back up to where you want it/were speed wise when you couldn’t do it.


No, it's all solid. You may be suffering from confirmation bias: your picado is serviceable and you anchor the thumb so that's the way to do it. But why should the thumb contribute anything to smooth picado - it can only impede. I know a lot of players (including me) get the feeling that the thumb provides a counterbalancing force that gives power and stability. And it does to some extent - but I believe this is not a good way to practice. Stability and strength should be developed independently in the fingers without relying on the thumb. When the picado is well developed and the fingers can move freely across the strings then the thumb can be anchored for some additional stability.

Makes sense to me anyway.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 18 2021 23:13:05
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3126
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to zendalex

I've noticed three classical guitarists consistently resting the thumb: Xuefei Yang, Meng Su and Yamang Wang.

i haven't spoken to any of them about it, but it looks to me like their rested thumb both lends stability and damps undesired resonance.

All three achieved technical excellence studying with the same professor in China. Yang says, "I learned to play the guitar in China. I learned music in England." The other two studied with Barrueco at Peabody, after attaining technical virtuosity in China.

All three are stunning virtuosi. Neither of their non-Chinese teachers would have hesitated to "correct" their technique if they had thought it advisable.

The standard of technique in the classical world has advanced considerably in recent years. A couple of students at the local university can play rings around John Williams.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 19 2021 20:31:30
 
AndresK

Posts: 120
Joined: Jan. 4 2019
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to zendalex

Hello. I do both anchored and not, depending on the work the thumb has to do at the same time or at the end or begging of the picado phrase.

What helped me the most many years ago was the moment Jeronimo Maya insisted on the relaxed right hand (if you are right handed), showing me his right palm dropping dead on his left palm. He said the right hand should play as dead, como muerte, were his exact words. Everything else could align with this suggestion so someone could avoid extra stress and injuries. He also advised me to drop my hand down like when walking and then lift it up on the position of the guitar, keeping it totally relaxed and just rotate the wrist a bit to the right to have proper angle over the strings.

I am still working on this many many years later now but that advice changed completely the way I played forever. I heard many times before that it is best to have relaxed technique but Jero convinced me, maybe because I spent my last money going to another country to find him and have a few lessons with him,but anyway there is a moment that something finally makes sense. Relaxed has so many levels that seems without end.

The thumb anchored on the 6th most of the times but could easily be anchored on the 5th or 4th if they needed to be played next. When going towards the 5th or 6th the thumb would go on the top, keeping relaxed and close to the i-m so when they played to the 6th they could almost rest on the thumb. That helped me doing less movement on the i m when on the 6th string.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 19 2021 21:46:49
 
hamia

 

Posts: 378
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

I've noticed three classical guitarists consistently resting the thumb: Xuefei Yang, Meng Su and Yamang Wang.

i haven't spoken to any of them about it, but it looks to me like their rested thumb both lends stability and damps undesired resonance.

All three achieved technical excellence studying with the same professor in China. Yang says, "I learned to play the guitar in China. I learned music in England." The other two studied with Barrueco at Peabody, after attaining technical virtuosity in China.

All three are stunning virtuosi. Neither of their non-Chinese teachers would have hesitated to "correct" their technique if they had thought it advisable.

The standard of technique in the classical world has advanced considerably in recent years. A couple of students at the local university can play rings around John Williams.

RNJ


When I saw Ruben's video in which he said Paco warned against anchoring the thumb during practice I was surprised. But just as a thought experiment it makes a lot of sense. If the fingers are secure and fluid in movement across the strings without any involvement of the thumb then that has to be a good thing. We can also imagine that the thumb could impede the learning of this smooth movement. The right hand is best kept at more or less the same shape as it moves across the string and it's possible that during the learning process the anchored thumb might result either in a change in hand shape or in some additional stress in the hand. Once the fingers are secure in moving across the strings the thumb can be anchored. All good players have developed the fingers so that they can rest the thumb without affecting the fingers. Paco's point (via the Ruben video) was about the best way to practice and he said that during performance the thumb could be anchored.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 21 2021 18:28:47
 
kitarist

Posts: 1283
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to hamia

quote:

Paco's point (via the Ruben video)


Nope. It is not Paco's point. Premise not accepted.

_____________________________

Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 21 2021 18:37:37
 
zendalex

Posts: 123
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to AndresK

quote:

Relaxed has so many levels that seems without end


Well said. If I only knew how to control this. I am sure performing on stage especially if nervous uncovers all that was learned and then practiced with force - you just cant find that strength when adrenalin is pumping.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 21 2021 20:05:23
 
hamia

 

Posts: 378
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

Paco's point (via the Ruben video)


Nope. It is not Paco's point. Premise not accepted.


lol...ok Chief, whatever you say
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 22 2021 9:52:07
 
zendalex

Posts: 123
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to johnnefastis

Here is my attempt at 2nd falseta. I was about to side with Joe on the point of weirdness of this falseta, but it turned out to be a lot of fun to learn and play. It is one of those which are actually greater to play than to listen to 😀

Anyway, here it is:

https://youtu.be/fb4mxsJ1LKk

And guys c'mon post your progress!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 26 2021 16:58:50
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12992
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to zendalex

quote:

ORIGINAL: zendalex

Here is my attempt at 2nd falseta. I was about to side with Joe on the point of weirdness of this falseta, but it turned out to be a lot of fun to learn and play. It is one of those which are actually greater to play than to listen to 😀

Anyway, here it is:

https://youtu.be/fb4mxsJ1LKk

And guys c'mon post your progress!!


Fantastic job. One little spot was at :30 coming from F# into the single note melody you didn’t set up the contra beat so that entire section (until the B major chord strum) is shifted on to the tiempo rather than the contra tiempo as it should be. Hopefully it will be an easy fix for you at your level.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 26 2021 19:52:59
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 555
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to Ricardo

Damn Alex! you are on fire with that one. Great stuff. I am no where near. I am still just getting the first one down and trying to make that contra bass bit at the end sound good :)

Simon Escribano ... can you set up the challenge thread? I tried sending a message but not sure it got to you.

Is everyone ok to decide the winner during the zoom hangout? I imagine we will all agree otherwise Ricardo can maybe call the final shot.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 26 2021 23:08:08
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