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RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for another challenge?   You are logged in as Guest
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ernandez R

Posts: 553
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to zendalex

quote:

ORIGINAL: zendalex

Here is my attempt at 2nd falseta. I was about to side with Joe on the point of weirdness of this falseta, but it turned out to be a lot of fun to learn and play. It is one of those which are actually greater to play than to listen to 😀

Anyway, here it is:

https://youtu.be/fb4mxsJ1LKk

And guys c'mon post your progress!!



Nice! I've no place to judge anyone's playing but I could hear a couple rough spots and the timing thing Ricardo mentioned, sounded good to me though and I liked how I could see both your right and left hands vary well, gives me somthing to aim for in my remedial playing. Blew my thumbnail off jamming it walking out the door this morning, crushed it to the quick :/

Looking forward to others posting their progress and the following discussions. Even though I'm not up to this level I find it's a good learning experience.

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 26 2021 23:11:59
 
zendalex

Posts: 123
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to zendalex

quote:

One little spot was at :30 coming from F# into the single note melody you didn’t set up the contra beat so that entire section (until the B major chord strum) is shifted on to the tiempo rather than the contra tiempo as it should be. Hopefully it will be an easy fix for you at your level.


Hi Ricardo, many thanks for the feedback. This is precisely why I think we need to post it early enough to get that kind of pointers. I had a feeling smth is off there, as I have to squeeze that B chord earler than it feels to meet the 12 beat of next compas cycle.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2021 15:35:23
 
zendalex

Posts: 123
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to johnnefastis

quote:

Is everyone ok to decide the winner during the zoom hangou


John and Ernandez, thanks for the feedback guys. As for tbe winner, why do we need to decide that? I think we made this a learning challenge, ie everybody wins as long they try to learn one or both falsetas.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2021 15:39:10
 
JasonM

Posts: 1830
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to zendalex

Ole Senor Quant!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2021 16:16:08
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13410
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to zendalex

quote:

ORIGINAL: zendalex

quote:

One little spot was at :30 coming from F# into the single note melody you didn’t set up the contra beat so that entire section (until the B major chord strum) is shifted on to the tiempo rather than the contra tiempo as it should be. Hopefully it will be an easy fix for you at your level.


Hi Ricardo, many thanks for the feedback. This is precisely why I think we need to post it early enough to get that kind of pointers. I had a feeling smth is off there, as I have to squeeze that B chord earler than it feels to meet the 12 beat of next compas cycle.


Cool, I show the timing clear in the tutorial at 34:30.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2021 17:15:09
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 583
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to ernandez R

quote:

winner


Cool we don’t need too. Just harking back to the old challenges. Happy to ditch that and declare everyone a winner and all get some positive critical feedback.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2021 19:02:25
 
zendalex

Posts: 123
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to JasonM

quote:


Ole Senor Quant


Yeah thats what I chose to call myself on youtube. I am not the best math guy and I am average flamenco guitarist at best, but I am figuring, out of all quants who also play flamenco, I got to be close to top :))) So far I in fact dont know any. Knew some classical and blues, rock players, but not flamenco.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2021 22:14:18
 
JasonM

Posts: 1830
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to zendalex

I’m working on this assignment. Not sure if there is a deadline… either way, it’s good practice.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 6 2021 16:03:28
 
zendalex

Posts: 123
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to JasonM

quote:

Not sure if there is a deadline


Well original deadline was 9th of July. But I am sure we did not mean it as rigid cutoff. All welcome to try at their own pace. However ideally we need some indication of who else is going to post and when, as we'd then schedule a class with Ricardo accordingly.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 6 2021 16:15:20
 
Fluknu

 

Posts: 141
Joined: Jan. 11 2021
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to ernandez R

I've been practicing the first part of the falseta. But I'm around 160 clean with the metronome. So nothing to compare with Zendalex.
It's a really good exercise and I love the falseta. I was thinking of practicing it on my own and not so much participating. I'm in south of France anyway untill at least middle of Jully, for some holidays. So, except my guitar, no recording material here.

by the way, one of the difficulties I encounter in the first falseta, is the picado after the arpeggio. any tip on that?

Fluknu
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 8 2021 7:19:35
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13410
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to Fluknu

quote:

by the way, one of the difficulties I encounter in the first falseta, is the picado after the arpeggio. any tip on that?


Try the right hand combo i-m-i then cross to first string with m-i … I find that the spread between the fingers i and a makes this combo feel easier to change from apoyando to tirando for the arpegio note that follows.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 8 2021 17:10:18
 
JasonM

Posts: 1830
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to Fluknu

quote:

I've been practicing the first part of the falseta. But I'm around 160 clean with the metronome. So nothing to compare with Zendalex.


Aye. I’m about 75% through the second one. There is a lot going on in that falseta!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 8 2021 17:23:40
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 583
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to ernandez R

Great that everyone is working on it! I am enjoying playing the first one and slowly digging into the second. I have a family bereavement so tomorrow’s deadline isn’t going to happen but let’s keep chatting here and figure a good time to stop and do the meet up.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 8 2021 18:58:24
 
Fluknu

 

Posts: 141
Joined: Jan. 11 2021
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to ernandez R

Thanks Ricardo. that's actually what I'm doing. I watched the video closely .
In the end I think it's just normal: It takes me a long time when doing picado to find the right posture. So imagine with a technical change of that speed.
Damn Picado!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 9 2021 13:34:45
 
zendalex

Posts: 123
Joined: Sep. 4 2010
From: New York area

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to Fluknu

quote:

one of the difficulties I encounter in the first falseta, is the picado after the arpeggio. any tip on that?


For me the answer to it is always - staccato practice of picado right after the arpeggio, in slow tempo. The idea is to get used to the habit of first finding and feeling the string, only then pulling it. I dont know how long ago I came across this concept, but never practiced that way until like 2 years ago. And it does miracles - your hand will start finding the strings on its own and you would be amazed at what particular angle and position it will find so it is comfortable. No anchoring on 6th or whatever else string will get you that - the habit of pre-planting is the one which gives you that confidence.

Also I just bought picado package from Adam del Monte, and he is very good explaining the pre-planting concept, maybe even the best from what I've seen so far if not comparing to individual lessons.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 9 2021 15:06:55
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1165
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to JasonM

quote:

I’m not sure there are any masters that don’t anchor?

I'm a strong advocate for anchoring the thumb. But what about this video at 2:12-2:16?

Paco is playing picado with thumb free stroke. You can play it properly only after you have mastered picado without anchoring your thumb.



quote:

Paco warned against anchoring the thumb during practice I was surprised. But just as a thought experiment it makes a lot of sense. If the fingers are secure and fluid in movement across the strings without any involvement of the thumb then that has to be a good thing. We can also imagine that the thumb could impede the learning of this smooth movement.

This.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jul. 17 2021 23:50:52
 
kitarist

Posts: 1492
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand
I'm a strong advocate for anchoring the thumb. But what about this video at 2:12-2:16?

Paco is playing picado with thumb free stroke. You can play it properly only after you have mastered picado without anchoring your thumb.




I was thinking about this some more, recently; it is possible a lot of it comes down to what people interpret 'anchoring' to mean.

"Anchoring" the thumb is meant to refer to a function, not to what the thumb is doing physically. The thumb is just touching lightly; lightly enough to slide freely (and even do an occasional tirando stroke) as the right hand needs to move across the strings. That's the opposite of what a physical anchor is for.

So "anchoring" is referring to the function that that light touch has - it is for proprioceptive feedback to the brain. This is why 'anchoring' makes picado more precise and easier to do smoothly - the brain has that near-continuous additional feedback on positioning and distance from the strings and incorporates that into the commands and corrections it gives to the muscles controlling the picado fingers' strokes.

In what you point-to above in the video, Paco is just doing a single thumb tirando (free) stroke(*) from time to time along with the picado. His thumb after the stroke is back to 'anchoring' i.e. back to providing a stream of proprioceptive feedback to the brain; just a slight break in the continuity of it.

Finally, when it is claimed that you need to train without that proprioceptive feedback to be able to get really good at picado, that claim has the cause and effect backwards. Rather, people who train with proper anchoring (as described above) get better, as a result, at also being able to execute picado for some period without that feedback because of all that prior brain training/error correction from thumb 'anchoring' practice.

(*) And why is it not a rest (apoyando) stroke? Try it with a fast picado and you will see that feels more awkward and limiting (though not impossible).

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 10 2021 18:05:58
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13410
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand
I'm a strong advocate for anchoring the thumb. But what about this video at 2:12-2:16?

Paco is playing picado with thumb free stroke. You can play it properly only after you have mastered picado without anchoring your thumb.




I was thinking about this some more, recently; it is possible a lot of it comes down to what people interpret 'anchoring' to mean.

"Anchoring" the thumb is meant to refer to a function, not to what the thumb is doing physically. The thumb is just touching lightly; lightly enough to slide freely (and even do an occasional tirando stroke) as the right hand needs to move across the strings. That's the opposite of what a physical anchor is for.

So "anchoring" is referring to the function that that light touch has - it is for proprioceptive feedback to the brain. This is why 'anchoring' makes picado more precise and easier to do smoothly - the brain has that near-continuous additional feedback on positioning and distance from the strings and incorporates that into the commands and corrections it gives to the muscles controlling the picado fingers' strokes.

In what you point-to above in the video, Paco is just doing a single thumb tirando (free) stroke(*) from time to time along with the picado. His thumb after the stroke is back to 'anchoring' i.e. back to providing a stream of proprioceptive feedback to the brain; just a slight break in the continuity of it.

Finally, when it is claimed that you need to train without that proprioceptive feedback to be able to get really good at picado, that claim has the cause and effect backwards. Rather, people who train with proper anchoring (as described above) get better, as a result, at also being able to execute picado for some period without that feedback because of all that prior brain training/error correction from thumb 'anchoring' practice.

(*) And why is it not a rest (apoyando) stroke? Try it with a fast picado and you will see that feels more awkward and limiting (though not impossible).


This is all correct. Returning to the video of Paco, if you slow it down you can clearly see him miss some notes due to the floating of the hand after he hits the low E bass note and melody note together (2:14). The feeling for me is like when you are walking and there is a need to step or hop over something on the ground and for a brief moment you are unstable and up in the air. It is this reason that if Paco is gonna mess up ever it would be in such a spot, as we see in the video. I notice that he did this type of thing more in his youth and as he got older he stopped including bass notes under the fast picados.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2021 15:41:49
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1165
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to kitarist

At 0:42 M. Sanlucar does similar stuff.



quote:

(*) And why is it not a rest (apoyando) stroke? Try it with a fast picado and you will see that feels more awkward and limiting (though not impossible).

Do you think it feels awkward and limiting as well when you play thumb rest stroke on a treble string with golpe? For example at the end of a P I passage on beat 12.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 16 2022 19:04:11
 
kitarist

Posts: 1492
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Do you think it feels awkward and limiting as well when you play thumb rest stroke on a treble string with golpe? For example at the end of a P I passage on beat 12.


No.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 17 2022 18:21:24
 
jg7238

 

Posts: 2854
Joined: May 11 2009
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to Ricardo

Nice tutorial Ricardo. Will check it out especially the second falseta which is really interesting.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 17 2022 18:54:55
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1165
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

Do you think it feels awkward and limiting as well when you play thumb rest stroke on a treble string with golpe? For example at the end of a P I passage on beat 12.


No.

I pointed this out just to know if my observation and conclusion was right.

I would not say awkward or limiting. But it feels different. Maybe because I got used to golpe + free stroke thumb on treble strings, sometimes on the 4th string. I dare to say if the thumb is played with golpe, one should use free stroke, particularly on treble strings.
The example above remate on beat 12, one should play the 2nd B string with the thumb free stroke. I haven't seen any tocaor doing thumb rest stroke in this particular example. It can be even true in general for flamenco guitar playing.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 22 2022 14:29:54
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13410
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

I dare to say if the thumb is played with golpe, one should use free stroke, particularly on treble strings.
The example above remate on beat 12, one should play the 2nd B string with the thumb free stroke. I haven't seen any tocaor doing thumb rest stroke in this particular example. It can be even true in general for flamenco guitar playing.


Absolutely false. All pulgar (except opposite certain arpeggio patterns or tremolo) should be done APOYANDO with or without golpe. In fact when doing the remate por Soleá and you strum or hit multiple strings, it should be exactly like an apoyando….with the exception that you don’t actually REST on anything after striking the first string. But the approach to striking the string is the same. You can’t actually strum a chord, period, unless it is moving through strings apoyando. So you need to revise your thinking because doing the remate to single notes with pulgar should be a no brainer, no matter what string that note is on. It is like a slow strum that suddenly stops after a certain string is passed through.

(Or maybe you need a TEACHER??????)

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 22 2022 19:40:16
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1165
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Paco tutorial 4. Time for anothe... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

In fact when doing the remate por Soleá and you strum or hit multiple strings, it should be exactly like an apoyando….with the exception that you don’t actually REST on anything after striking the first string. But the approach to striking the string is the same. You can’t actually strum a chord, period, unless it is moving through strings apoyando.

Makes sense. I agree on that. But in practice there's always an exception. Look at 2:45. Paco plays the 2nd string with thumb free stroke + golpe.



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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 22 2022 22:27:41
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