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Morante

 

Posts: 1629
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

Guitar construction 

The Spanish guitar has not changed for centuries. But it is very difficult and costly to adjust or repair. Leo Fender popularised the bolt on neck with truss rod. Taylor has refined the idea for his acoustics.

A flamenco guitar with bolt on neck and titanium truss rod should be the next step forwards.

https://blog.taylorguitars.com/buyers-resources/acoustic-guitar-innovation-spotlight-the-taylor-neck
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2021 15:54:47
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12673
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to Morante

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

The Spanish guitar has not changed for centuries. But it is very difficult and costly to adjust or repair. Leo Fender populaised the bolt on neck with truss rod. Taylor has refined the idea for his acoustics.

A flamenco guitar with bolt on neck and titanium truss rod should be the next step forwards.

https://blog.taylorguitars.com/buyers-resources/acoustic-guitar-innovation-spotlight-the-taylor-neck



Then along with this “advancement” they need to add strap bolts and the tocaores should be allowed to accompany the cante and baile standing up.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2021 17:29:54
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to Morante

In many ways, employing a lightweight truss rod just seems sensible. I’ve only built using a truss rod once, however, on a steel string acoustic I made. It also had a bolt on neck.

I’ve built using both dovetailed and Spanish foot styles for the neck, and each method has its pros and cons. I’ve long since settled into building using the Spanish method, but if I ever were to go back to a separate neck/body attachment it would be to either build raised fretboard classicals (a la Humphrey) or adjustable action models, which would be a form of bolt on (I’m not sure what they’re called these days...tilt necks?). I realize the raised fretboard style can be constructed in the Spanish method, but it just seems to me that it would be easier to do it separately. I haven’t done it either way, but I was taught how to do it with a dovetail, so maybe that’s why I favour it.

But, even for building in the Spanish style, lightweight truss rods shouldn’t be dismissed as they could be quite useful, in my opinion.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2021 17:53:52
 
Escribano

Posts: 6142
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to Morante

I have been researching this a lot for my electrics. Fender does not use a neck angle, instead there is a floating bridge to compensate. The angle is built-in on flamenco construction, much like Gibsons.

I don't think a truss rod is a bad idea at all. I guess it comes down to weight, balance and traditional aesthetics.

There is so much less tension to distort the neck on a nylon guitar but I take your point about repair/adjustment.

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Foro Flamenco founder and Admin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2021 18:25:16
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to Escribano

quote:

Fender does not use a neck angle, instead there is a floating bridge to compensate.

Mind you, their modern, non-vintage issues do employ a tilt feature, adjustable via a grub screw, which is accessible through a hole in the back plate. I suspect many to most users prefer a full wood to wood contact of neck to body, but the adjustment screw is there for those who want to use it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 24 2021 18:39:27
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to Morante

Madinter sells titanium rods for neck reinforcement and many luthiers have been using for years carbon fibre reinforcements.
The neck joint is instead a controverse matter even though already Stauffer used to make use of a tilt-neck secured with a bolt. Nowadays you can see classical guitars with necks you can remove or change the inclination of through a bolt (I think of Smallman, Gareth Lee or Gary Southwel) but these systems are often too heavy or unconventional for flamenco guitars.
I think times are mature enough (to keep the link with cheddar) for a modern kind of neck joint also in flamenco guitars: I've been dreaming to develop some ideas starting from the system used by Andres Marvi
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2021 11:56:14
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1629
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to Echi

quote:

Madinter sells titanium rods for neck reinforcement and many luthiers have been using for years carbon fibre reinforcements.


These reinforcements are not of much use because they are not adjustable. All guitar necks need a small amount of relief. On an electric, this can be adjusted in 10 minutes. If the neck moves it can be easily readjusted.

On a Spanish guitar the luthier makes the relief, which is non adjustable. If the neck moves with time, too bad. Removing frets and replaning the diapason is expensive.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2021 13:20:22
 
Echi

 

Posts: 826
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to Morante

True, but a neck well reinforced shouldn’t move at all and as a consequence shouldn’t need adjustments.
Truss rods became necessary with steel strings guitars as the string tension is more than with nylon strings.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2021 16:15:53
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1629
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to Echi

quote:

but a neck well reinforced shouldn’t move at all


This is simply not true. I have seen many.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2021 16:27:34
 
Stu

Posts: 1843
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to Morante

Bolt on neck!??
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2021 16:39:35
 
Cervantes

 

Posts: 473
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to Morante

I would think carbon fiber is the ideal material to reinforce a neck.
Stiff and light. Apparently some builders are already using it, but have not seen or heard of it being used on a flamenco.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2021 17:02:44
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to Cervantes

quote:

I would think carbon fiber is the ideal material to reinforce a neck.
Stiff and light. Apparently some builders are already using it, but have not seen or heard of it being used on a flamenco.

It’s use is extremely common on both flamenco and classical guitars.

Morante is really talking about lightweight adjustable rods, though, which is much less common on luthier-made flamenco guitars, although not unknown in the classical world.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2021 19:14:53
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to Morante

quote:

This is simply not true. I have seen many.

Yep. I’ve got a carbon reinforced one on my bench right now whose life would have been so much simpler if only it had an adjustable rod. It depends on the maker’s style whether the neck is made with enough flexibility to pull into relief or not, but wood being wood, things can change with time, regardless of how controlled the construction methodology was.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2021 19:30:21
 
ernandez R

Posts: 351
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to Morante

Super busy at the moment but here is a link to my instaG with some full depth carbon webs in the neck. I'll do a write up soon:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CLqdshTnGpj/

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2021 21:50:29
 
JasonM

Posts: 1565
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to Stu

quote:

Bolt on neck!??


Stu, any progress on the 2nd axe?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 25 2021 23:23:03
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12673
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to Morante

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

quote:

but a neck well reinforced shouldn’t move at all


This is simply not true. I have seen many.


He probably means a guitar well cared for....one that is played often usually won’t bend.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 26 2021 1:07:07
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to Morante

“ a neck well reinforced shouldn’t move at all and as a consequence shouldn’t need adjustments.” and “ a guitar well cared for....one that is played often usually won’t bend.”

And there you have it. But, before I go...

Bolt on necks work, they just do, and they are easier to repair, although only poorly made or neglected guitars should ever need attention, so who cares. It’s easier to put binding on a body without a neck in the way, but not that much easier to really matter. It’s easier to get a really clean finish when the neck and body are polished separately (but not that much, if you’re any good). Anyone with ears can hear the difference between French Polish and Nitro, those without ears can hear the difference between Poly and anything else, except old Ramirez sound pretty good and have a finish that wears like nobody’s business. Separate neck and body guitars don’t weigh more, are just as strong, and sound every bit as good. Spanish heel construction is stronger and sounds better. No it doesn’t. Backs done on dishes look terrible, but people who don’t like them don’t have to, it’s a free world...nobody else knows what we’re talking about anyways. Dovetail joints are great, super strong, self locking, even if the neck is fitted with 37 or more shims. Ummm, no, everybody knows that can’t possibly be true, well most everybody. Every Barbero or Santos kicks ass, it’s like driving a Ferrari or maybe a Super-charged Bentley is more apt, not a Tesla, though, because somebody might actually have driven one of those... There are no old master guitars that are not sublime, even the most basic are sublime in their elegant simplicity. Look at that scarf, OMG, it’s freaking invisible. You mean that one, the one I can see from way over here because you’re hogging the frikken flashlight and mirror? That guy over there doesn’t know sh*t...Who?...that guy, WTF is with the holes in the sides? He making some kind of bong or something? Must’ve heard me wrong when I was talking about superchargers...oh, STOP, you slay me, OMG. Put that away...is that a Telecaster?

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 26 2021 2:32:44
 
ernandez R

Posts: 351
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to RobF

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobF

“ a neck well reinforced shouldn’t move at all and as a consequence shouldn’t need adjustments.” and “ a guitar well cared for....one that is played often usually won’t bend.”

And there you have it. But, before I go...

Bolt on necks work, they just do, and they are easier to repair, although only poorly made or neglected guitars should ever need attention, so who cares. It’s easier to put binding on a body without a neck in the way, but not that much easier to really matter. It’s easier to get a really clean finish when the neck and body are polished separately (but not that much, if you’re any good). Everyone with ears can hear the difference between French Polish and Nitro, those without ears can hear the difference between Poly and anything else, except Ramirez sound pretty good and have a finish that wears like nobody’s business. Separate neck and body guitars don’t weigh more, are just as strong, and sound every bit as good. Spanish heel construction is stronger and sounds better. No it doesn’t. Backs done on dishes look terrible, but people who don’t like them don’t have to, it’s a free world...nobody else knows what we’re talking about anyways. Dovetail joints are great, super strong, self locking, even if the neck is fitted with 37 or more shims. Ummm, no, everybody knows that can’t possibly be true, well most everybody. Every Barbero or Santos kicks ass, it’s like driving a Ferrari or maybe a Super-charged Bentley is more apt, not a Tesla, though, because somebody might actually have driven one of those... There are no old master guitars that are not sublime, even the most basic are sublime in their elegant simplicity. Look at that scarf, OMG, it’s freaking invisible. You mean that one, the one I can see from way over here because you’re hogging the frikken flashlight and mirror? That guy over there doesn’t know sh*t...Who?...that guy, WTF is with the holes in the sides? He making some kind of bong or something? Must’ve heard me wrong when I was talking about superchargers...oh, STOP, you slay me, OMG. Put that away...is that a Telecaster?




...are you blind? it's a Strat, and no that neck is not spalted Birch it's Stilton. But I didn't come here to re-hash the neck to body wars, that argument went up in smoke years ago...

So, resawing this log of Birch for a pair of classical necks I'm building and one end, about twelve inches of it is spalted, it is beautiful and I'm going to use it but feeling it might be compromised I'm going to resaw it into strips so the neck will have four full depth strips of CF cloth, two layers of 6oz ( I think it's 6oz?). I want to use the spalted part at the headstock end but it would look extra cool on the heel too. Time will tell.

I'm building two Flamenco at the same time both of which have a Cotten wood neck, same as sides and back, with a 1/4 Birch spine and full depth carbon each side of the spine. Trying to use local sustainable woods, not sure where the carbon fiber fits in all my idealism though by rationalizing how it's here in my shop and I may as well use it if it prolongs the life of my guitars.

I really feel a lot of the neck lifting, rather then it turning into a banana, comes from the back in tension. I've seen it in my light weight 900g builds. I've removed the longatudanal arch of my backs compleatly to prevent it. The back is now more of a cylinder, if that makes more sense?

BTW: photos are not easy on the foro, only slightly better then the Delcamp but it's been getting better, haveing to take them with an iDevice, plug into a computer, open program, inport, edit, resize, etc to post on any forum is kinda... Janky at best. I'll do all my posting on my phone for ease on a handful of forums I torment. I have a newer iPhone that I don't use as a phone more like a mini mini iPad which will promt if I want to resize before trying to post so I use it. I'm going blind so I'll type on this older than dirt iPad, then add photos from said phone. Ha ha haa, who has time for this? Oh wait, Im Half crippled and couch bound for a few hours ever day and my fingers are raw... Most foro software today doesn't care what foto size and pixels and just resizes and dumps the origanal. Also, all my iDevices take screen shots as... Shoot now I don't recall, mostly normal image format (Pict.* ? ) I use that a lot to transfer images cause it's handy. Doesn't work on the foro.

Each Image for luthery is like a thousand word essay and I love to write but I'm so flippen dyslexic it takes me a long time to write anything ergo I snap!


HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 26 2021 3:13:27
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to ernandez R

quote:

...are you blind? it's a Strat,

It’s not a Strat...it’s what they call your Nashville Tele...they have an extra Strat pickup between the two tele single coils. Ask Ramzi about it, he better know...

quote:

So, resawing this log of Birch for a pair of classical necks I'm building and one end, about twelve inches of it is spalted, it is beautiful and I'm going to use it but feeling it might be compromised I'm going to resaw it into strips so the neck will have four full depth strips of CF cloth, two layers of 6oz ( I think it's 6oz?). I want to use the spalted part at the headstock end but it would look extra cool on the heel too. Time will tell.

I’d be a little concerned about working the neck with the cloth all the way through, I think you’ll have to do mainly knife work if you want to avoid dips. Might be pretty hard on the blade. Also, is there a danger of little carbon fibre splinters getting into the player’s hand? Following on that, how safe is that stuff to work? I mean from a perspective of breathing the dust as you sand or the set-up resins as they gas off?

quote:

Trying to use local sustainable woods, not sure where the carbon fiber fits in all my idealism though by rationalizing how it's here in my shop and I may as well use it if it prolongs the life of my guitars.

I’m really hoping you can get your hands on some of that Alaskan Yellow Cedar. It really makes great guitars and is very well suited to being used for the back and sides of flamencos. And it totally fits your model.

quote:

I really feel a lot of the neck lifting, rather then it turning into a banana, comes from the back in tension. I've seen it in my light weight 900g builds. I've removed the longatudanal arch of my backs compleatly to prevent it. The back is now more of a cylinder, if that makes more sense?

Cool. I know a couple of makers who’ve experimented with that, I can PM you their names. The one who first came up with the cylinder idea builds pretty wild guitars with laminated backs and sides, tilt necks, raised fingerboards, the whole nine yards of what the kids want to see at the guitar shows. I really like his work. I think he’s moved on to something more involved, however, last time I talked to him he called it a spline, but I had no idea what he was talking about. Definitely still has a bit of a cylindrical appearance, though.

quote:

Each Image for luthery is like a thousand word essay and I love to write but I'm so flippen dyslexic it takes me a long time to write anything ergo I snap!

I agree. I try to include lots of pictures in my rare write-ups. Sometimes, especially with jigs and the like, I think using photo essays with as few words as possible is the way to go. That way, anyone really interested has to look and think, and then they will own and understand. You can write volumes of spoon-feeding and not be any more effective than a few well thought out photos, IMO.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 26 2021 3:34:34
 
ernandez R

Posts: 351
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to Morante

Rough day, over did it behind the snow blower, 2 hours 2.2 miles , and now I’m couch bound instead of being in the shop. I am grumpy as get all...

No splinters from the carbon once it’s done as it fairly monolithic once in the adhesive matrix. Finishing takes some care cause it’s like fiberglass only worse. I’ve used it for decades and one takes apropreat precautions, I’m more worried about the forthcoming cedar. Scraping or knifing isn’t too bad, I clear the flash initially with a plane, I position a garbage can underneath and the put the shop vac hose underneath so it draws all the finer dust. In the “Wood Room” where I keep the table, chop and bandsaw, drum sander I made, and do all the other dusty stuff I have a downdraft cabinet I built sized for guitar tops etc. I just plug the shop vac, it’s a big one that lives outside in a cabinet, into it And it draws all the dust away. I always wear a breathable rain coat with a hood to protect myself, a cartridge respirator glasses and when it’s messy I add a face shield.

Let’s see if I can get some fotos up

Darker wood is hickory for headstocks, I like the sonic properties. The lighter wood is Cotten wood, it’s a kind of poplar and I have a lady stash of boards they were put up years ago. There is a short video time Lapse of me assembling on that insta link up thread; more like a ten thousand word essay. Snuck in the two rosettes I did the other day just cause.

As you can see I just use wedges as clamps, wire rods under the wax paper so the carbon lays flat and doesn’t fold. The fabric feels soft but it’s really stiff and will push up from the bottom and do odd stuff all slippery with the adhesive.

Not a joke: I had a one inch strip left over so I wrapped it down a pipe to cut up and use for fingernails later... high speed low drag!

HR









Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (4)

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 26 2021 5:01:35
 
ernandez R

Posts: 351
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to Morante

Oh ya, by splitting the neck wood and flipping one piece around so the grain is mirrored you reduce any tendency of the wood to bend or twist.

Look closely at the hickory headstocks in the foto above. And yes I would normally cut the neck and headstock out of one piece but after splitting it in two, flipping one piece for the grain mirror and glue in the birch stiffener, just like you see in the hickory above.

For the two flamenco necks I decide to not use my normal birch center strip but use the same cottenwood because I’m counting on the carbon fiber to provide the added stiffening and resonance.

Im deep into this cause I’m like that, fairly OCD, so you can see how having to be on the couch since noon is driving me mad. Going to put this infernal device away and rape the windings off my first guitar cause she likes it rough.

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 26 2021 5:14:49
 
RobF

Posts: 947
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to ernandez R

So, the adhesive for the laminate and the resin for the carbon fibre cloth is all the same stuff and you set it all up at the same time? That’s what makes the most sense, to me, if it can be done. I have a feeling this is going to work out quite nicely for you and, if it does, would also be a great subject for a write-up in the Lutherie section, if you were so inclined to do one.

I like the idea of just running the cloth right through and incorporating into part of a decorative strip. I don’t know if this is the right use of the word, but Bauhaus springs to mind. Stephen could probably set us straight on that. Like the rosettes a lot, too.

Still want you to get some of the Yellow Cedar. Once you have it in hand, you’ll know why - beyond smelling great, it’s an amazing wood. If you can get a chunk of a log of the fine grained stuff I suspect it would be a good investment, too. It’s a far better wood than people realize and so is undervalued, but it won’t be forever. In the past, at least as far as guitars are concerned, it’s been seen as a cheaper alternative to Cypress, or relegated to use as an inner laminate, but the fine grained stuff has a purity about it that makes it a wonderful medium to showcase one’s craftsmanship, as any error or fine detail is amplified. I love the stuff. That’s why I’ve been pushing it on you.

P.S. I use wedges, too. Whenever I get an off cut that’s wedge shaped I look at it and figure it might come in handy at some point and save it. Probably have way more than I need.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 26 2021 9:24:33
 
Stu

Posts: 1843
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to JasonM

quote:

Stu, any progress on the 2nd axe?


Hey Jason. Thanks for asking.

Funnily enough, I've just been into my garage workshop to work, for the first time since the pandemic allowed me to go back to my day job in August.
Lack of time and really unpleasant weather made it near impossible to progress.

A day hasn't passed where I haven't been thinking, planning, scheming, dreaming about continuing no.2

I finally got a bunch of new veneer and a little indoor setup and started designing/building a new rosette to use in no.3 and perhaps future guitars if it turns out well.

Also just before Xmas I ordered a load of wood for no3 (A negra) as I thought Brexit might cause me troubles later on.
So..
Planning 3 but no further progress on 2!! 😄

Next step for 2 is redoing sides as the burn was too bad I decided. Then start to assemble.
But im due my second child in April right after my current job finishes.... So....ideas of building guitars could all be pie in the sky! 😄

Sorry for thread hijack morante
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 26 2021 12:57:36
 
JasonM

Posts: 1565
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Guitar construction (in reply to Stu

Well, congratulations to you guys.

Bummer you couldn’t sand scape out the burn marks on the cypress.

Ooh a negra. No shame in buying more wood, it’s part of the inspiration I think.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 27 2021 14:25:34
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