Foro Flamenco
Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.
This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira and Philip John Lee who went ahead of us too soon.
We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





Changing strings   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1] 2    >   >>
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1629
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

Changing strings 

Align the hole in the tuner so that the string enters easily. The loosely wound end goes here. Pass the string over the roller, under the string and pass it back and pull tight. This will form a tight loop which with only half a turn will anchor the string in the hole so that it will never slip.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2021 16:16:44
 
rombsix

Posts: 7483
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Changing strings (in reply to Morante

quote:

The loosely wound end goes here.


Not at the bridge?

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2021 16:31:37
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1629
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Changing strings (in reply to rombsix

never
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2021 16:43:59
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 511
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

RE: Changing strings (in reply to Morante

That doesn't make sense though. Don't you end up with loads of winds on the tuner then?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2021 17:10:27
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12673
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Changing strings (in reply to rombsix

quote:

ORIGINAL: rombsix

quote:

The loosely wound end goes here.


Not at the bridge?


Morante is talking about what real guitar players do that have to change strings every couple weeks. Not people that put a set on a new scratch free guitar and leave it on for three years when the D string pops at the bridge from having left the guitar in the closet bowing from humidity changes.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2021 17:29:46
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12673
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Changing strings (in reply to johnnefastis

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnnefastis

That doesn't make sense though. Don't you end up with loads of winds on the tuner then?


What I do is after tying the bridge end, I pull the string slack through the roller then tie it like a shoelace to itself so not many turns will be required. I keep the slack rolled up in case I kill the basses early. I use that slack by retying at the bridge about one tie loop length in bridge direction then clip the extra slack at the bridge end. Sound like new strings for a few gigs. Not all string brands waste their time with the soft end windings ... especially La Bella and luthier because they know flamenco players need to use up the slack.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2021 17:37:16
 
kitarist

Posts: 1177
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Changing strings (in reply to johnnefastis

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnnefastis

That doesn't make sense though. Don't you end up with loads of winds on the tuner then?


No, what you do is, after you pass the loosely-wound (aka 'flexible') end through the tuner hole, you take up any string slack before you do the looping and tying. At that moment you have a secured fairly taut string, and some amount of string including the loosely-wound portion is free and flops around, but does not participate (it is not wound on the tuner) in the subsequent turning the tuner to tune to pitch as you've kind of locked that part out of that process (you can cut off that part later).

Now you need not just less turns to get the string to pitch, but also less adjustment time for it to get to stable pitch because the string wound on the tuner itself is a much smaller amount (that part also stretches some and has to get to equilibrium, so the less of it is there wound on the tuner the better). For that reason I do exactly the same (pull the string taut before tuning) for the trebles, which are much more stretchable.

I also went through experimenting with whether the loosely-wound end goes on the tuner side or the bridge side. I believe some teachers may have come up with the "loose wound end goes on the bridge" advice in order to avoid it being wound around the tuner and possibly falling apart there while trying to tune - however, the idea here is that you pull the string taut BEFORE you start tuning up, so that whole section wound not be part of any subsequent tuning.

Putting it on the bridge side is not particularly good advice UNLESS you add that none of that loosely-wound part should be tied on the bridge - it should be just a free end flopping around (and cut off later). But then I personally get worried I will not have enough length to tie the string on the other side, so really it is much better to "exclude" the loosely-wound end at the tuner side rather than at the bridge side.

I believe many people, in trying to follow the advice without the clarification, try to use that loose/flexible portion as part of their bridge tie, and this is not good as that part can easily fall apart and can take part of the strands inside with it. Then you try cutting the unravelling part off and if you are not careful may unravel it a bit more, and it gets hairy

For all these reasons, what Morante described is exactly right - the best way to tie a string is to "exclude" the loosely-wound end on the tuner side; pull the string taut before tuning so fewer tuning loops are needed.

BTW, if you find that the firm end is too straight and can't easily bend to pass through the bridge hole (passing the easily-bendable loosely-wound end is sometimes another reason given for why put that end on the bridge side), just bend the end a bit around some hard cylindrical object - I do it around the handle part of my plastic string winder. You just need the smallest bend of the firm end; a few degrees.

Lastly, what to do with the loose string sections (which include the loosely-wound section of the bass strings) hanging from the tuners? You can leave them on like a rock'n'roller, or cut them off. I found that if I leave them on, I sometimes get weird buzzing, and it turned out it was from these bits interacting with the head and tuning machines. Cutting them off removed that buzz. Same with the smaller bits left on the bridge side - I cut them off as they can rattle as well if left on (also looks neater but that's secondary).

_____________________________

Konstantin
Foro cante accompaniment practice tracks (zip file)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2021 18:25:00
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3145
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Changing strings (in reply to kitarist

Excellent advice and instructions, Konstantin. I would add that after bringing the "loosely wound" (or what I call the more flexible) end of the string through the tuner hole (capstan) and have secured a taut string that is properly tuned, rather than cutting the excess off, I secure it the way I was taught by Paco de Malaga. I just create a loop with the excess that holds its shape by a couple of winds of the string around itself.

This is a purely subjective opinion, but I think the resulting circular loops lend a more aesthetic appearance to the headstock than just the sharp ends of the strings protruding by cutting the excess off.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2021 20:35:57
 
JasonM

Posts: 1565
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Changing strings (in reply to Morante

When I change strings, I start by placing the guitar in my lap. Then I play it for a bit and think about how much better it would sound with new strings! Then I put the guitar back on the stand.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2021 21:00:18
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3145
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Changing strings (in reply to JasonM

quote:

When I change strings, I start by placing the guitar in my lap. Then I play it for a bit and think about how much better it would sound with new strings! Then I put the guitar back on the stand.


That's like Woody Allen, who said whenever he gets the urge to exercise he just lies down until it goes away.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2021 21:25:22
 
rombsix

Posts: 7483
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Changing strings (in reply to JasonM

quote:

When I change strings, I start by placing the guitar in my lap. Then I play it for a bit and think about how much better it would sound with new strings! Then I put the guitar back on the stand.


I do the same thing, Jason.

All y'all with the loose end debate - What do y'all think of this?

https://youtu.be/AKsVF72Tsdg?t=138

https://youtu.be/Y9nERN2_Fe0?t=218

https://youtu.be/Kt6mrDP5NGA?t=179

https://youtu.be/B83ThCOXOG0?t=391

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2021 21:27:45
 
Piwin

Posts: 3164
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Changing strings (in reply to JasonM

quote:

When I change strings, I start by placing the guitar in my lap. Then I play it for a bit and think about how much better it would sound with new strings! Then I put the guitar back on the stand.


When I change strings, i start by placing the guitar in my lap. Then I play it for a bit and think that I probably shouldn't have left it in the closet for three years. Then the D string pops and I put on a whole new set.

edit:
quote:

All y'all with the loose end debate - What do y'all think of this?


Personally I put the loose end up with the tuners. Just coz I don't trust it enough to tie down the string at the bridge with that bit, so if I put that end down at the bridge I end up having to cut it off anyway. I just do one loop for the bass strings so flexibility isn't an issue. Up on the tuners I do what Morante described.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2021 21:31:40
 
ernandez R

Posts: 351
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Changing strings (in reply to Morante

Ah, skinning cats, everyone has the best way...

I do the trebles first, I pull one through the tie block and then melt a ball with a lighter, one at a time and bring them up taught but nothing near tension. This allows the nylon to take a set around all the corners of the tie block and string hole in the peg, then I do up the wound strings one at a time and these I bring up about 50¢ sharp. If I’m happy with the bases I cut them about 1/8” sticking out the peg with a good cutting pair of nail clippers. I usually end up with 1.5-2 wraps around the E, 3ish around the A and 4 around the D peg. About the same with the G, B, and e accordingly.

Once I’m done with the wound strings I’ll go back to the trebles and bring them up to tension. Depending on my mood I’ll trim them at the peg with a 3/16” pig tail, unwind, carefully melt a ball, then rewind to tension. Or just clip.
I like to keep the string close to the peg stock veneer cause I feel it makes the peg a little more user friendly but not sure it’s all that important?

I blow through the D string in about five days, lately I’ve been strapping on the cagilla (sp ?) and playing fret two, three, or five for a few days.

When I order strings I’ll get three full sets, three bass sets, and three D strings. I work them accordingly and reorder the whole set once I’ve wiped the windings off then all. I’ve been playing 2-4 hours a day thanx to this bumb foot and the Covid but I’m not complaining.

Have wondered if the fat frets I build with have something to do with the string wear? Poor left hand technique?

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2021 22:57:34
 
RobF

Posts: 949
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Changing strings (in reply to Piwin

quote:

quote:

When I change strings, I start by placing the guitar in my lap. Then I play it for a bit and think about how much better it would sound with new strings! Then I put the guitar back on the stand.

When I change strings, i start by placing the guitar in my lap. Then I play it for a bit and think that I probably shouldn't have left it in the closet for three years. Then the D string pops and I put on a whole new set.



I don’t change strings. If one breaks I’ll go back to playing the trombone.

Actually, I do the same way as Morante but the high e and b strings get a double wrap (twist?) after being drawn back around the roller. Both E strings are wrapped with their ends pulled towards the inside of the headstock, while the rest have their ends pulled towards the outer. The coil runs on the opposite side of the pull. The loose end goes through the roller but it’s pulled right through and becomes superfluous. I don’t pull them super tight through the roller, but I don’t leave any slack, either.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2021 23:07:46
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1629
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Changing strings (in reply to JasonM

quote:

When I change strings, I start by placing the guitar in my lap. Then I play it for a bit and think about how much better it would sound with new strings! Then I put the guitar back on the stand.


Even easier: every time your strings need changing part exchange your guitar for a new one. That way you never have to change strings and you get to compare lots of different guitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 20 2021 23:48:06
 
kitarist

Posts: 1177
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Changing strings (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

rather than cutting the excess off, I secure it the way I was taught by Paco de Malaga. I just create a loop with the excess that holds its shape by a couple of winds of the string around itself.


Oh yeah, I've seen this but have never tried it (also wasn't sure how to do the little loops so they stay put). Now I remember I saw Ritchie Blackmore (of Deep Purple fame; though now in a medieval music band), of all people, with that kind of setup

_____________________________

Konstantin
Foro cante accompaniment practice tracks (zip file)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2021 0:54:12
 
kitarist

Posts: 1177
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Changing strings (in reply to rombsix

quote:

All y'all with the loose end debate - What do y'all think of this?

https://youtu.be/AKsVF72Tsdg?t=138

https://youtu.be/Y9nERN2_Fe0?t=218

https://youtu.be/Kt6mrDP5NGA?t=179

https://youtu.be/B83ThCOXOG0?t=391


The first one is correct that one should never use that end in any case; the other three just say that it is for the bridge side but there is no explanation (one guy says 'traditionally' and Luciano that it is easier to thread the string at that end - but threading through the other end is not difficult). With the last three it is not clear if they advocate actually using that flexible end or just pulling through enough so it is not part of any looping at the bridge (They may have said something about it later on in their respective videos but I'm not going to sit through 30+ minutes of combined video to see if they do ).

_____________________________

Konstantin
Foro cante accompaniment practice tracks (zip file)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2021 1:08:06
 
rombsix

Posts: 7483
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Changing strings (in reply to kitarist

quote:

The first one is correct that one should never use that end in any case; the other three just say that it is for the bridge side but there is no explanation (one guy says 'traditionally' and Luciano that it is easier to thread the string at that end - but threading through the other end is not difficult). With the last three it is not clear if they advocate actually using that flexible end or just pulling through enough so it is not part of any looping at the bridge (They may have said something about it later on in their respective videos but I'm not going to sit through 30+ minutes of combined video to see if they do ).


I tie my strings exactly like you do, but I wanted to rattle the cages.

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2021 7:24:35
 
kitarist

Posts: 1177
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Changing strings (in reply to rombsix

quote:

but I wanted to rattle the cages




Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Konstantin
Foro cante accompaniment practice tracks (zip file)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2021 7:52:43
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 711
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Changing strings (in reply to rombsix

quote:

https://youtu.be/AKsVF72Tsdg?t=138

https://youtu.be/Y9nERN2_Fe0?t=218

https://youtu.be/Kt6mrDP5NGA?t=179

https://youtu.be/B83ThCOXOG0?t=391


For various reasons no, no, no and no

Ricardo gives the best advice.

Makes sense for pegheads as well - you just can't have endless windings round the peg.

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2021 11:46:41
 
RobF

Posts: 949
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Changing strings (in reply to RobJe

quote:

Ricardo gives the best advice.

Nope. Morante does. It locks the strings just as well as Ricardo’s method, string changes are quicker and less fiddley, and there’s less chance of damage to the roller. But everybody should do what they feel is best even though, in this case, and suggested with humility and the greatest of respect to our Ricardo and all whom may agree with him, Morante’s way is best.



P.S. Morante does it almost exactly the same way I do, so I might be a little biased.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2021 13:31:41
 
Cervantes

 

Posts: 473
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Changing strings (in reply to Morante

I have always twisted the the string with itself several times after passing through the roller. Not sure where I learned this but it works.
Will have to try the other method though as it sound more secure.

_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2021 16:38:56
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1629
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Changing strings (in reply to Cervantes

I learned in the taller of my friend Rafael Lopez, luthier and student of Romanillos. Since I did most of the repairs, I had to change strings several times a day. It is easier if you have a banco de trabajo, but the technique is the same.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2021 17:28:13
 
kitarist

Posts: 1177
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Changing strings (in reply to Cervantes

quote:

I have always twisted the the string with itself several times after passing through the roller. Not sure where I learned this but it works.


Frank Ford of frets.com? That's where I learned that.

_____________________________

Konstantin
Foro cante accompaniment practice tracks (zip file)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2021 18:02:24
 
RobF

Posts: 949
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Changing strings (in reply to kitarist

Yeah, that looks like it. But for the two thinnest nylon strings I loop it twice to ensure there is no slippage.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2021 18:14:47
 
Piwin

Posts: 3164
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Changing strings (in reply to RobF

quote:

I don’t change strings. If one breaks I’ll go back to playing the trombone.


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2021 18:22:25
 
kitarist

Posts: 1177
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Changing strings (in reply to RobF

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobF

Yeah, that looks like it. But for the two thinnest nylon strings I loop it twice to ensure there is no slippage.


Yes, I even do 3 times for e-treble (I use carbon trebles which are more slippery than nylon). I also have combined in the past some of the tuner-tying methods mentioned - to experiment - like twisting around itself, then feeding free end through capstan hole again, then doing the Morante thing and or the Ricardo thing. Obviously an overkill, and it never made any appreciable difference in stability or tuning.

Nowadays I just do the Morante thing for bass strings, then add to that a couple of twists for the trebles (when doing both as for trebles, twists come first, I think). Never had a string slip so it is clearly enough.

_____________________________

Konstantin
Foro cante accompaniment practice tracks (zip file)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2021 18:23:14
 
kitarist

Posts: 1177
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Changing strings (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

quote:

I don’t change strings. If one breaks I’ll go back to playing the trombone.





I imagine the first thing RobF would play on trombone after a string break would be this?


_____________________________

Konstantin
Foro cante accompaniment practice tracks (zip file)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2021 18:29:06
 
RobF

Posts: 949
Joined: Aug. 24 2017
 

RE: Changing strings (in reply to kitarist

I used to have an old 78 of this when I was a kid. Wore the grooves out of it.

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2021 19:09:04
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3015
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Changing strings (in reply to Morante

One thing that I do, not mentioned in Ramzi's links, is to melt a blob on the bridge end of the treble strings. It takes more time, but it's insurance against string dings.

I use a cheap throwaway cigarette lighter. You don't put the end of the string into the flame. That produces a carbonized blob that will pop off of the string.

Light the lighter, hold the string well above the flame and gradually lower it until the end begins to melt. Stop there and let a globular blob form on the end of the string. It won't slip through whatever knot you use on the bridge.

I speak from experience. Absolutely the only mark on my 1991 Manuel Contreras Sr. "Doble Tapa" is a string ding at the first string. I absent mindedly forgot the blob.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 21 2021 21:13:15
Page:   [1] 2    >   >>
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1] 2    >   >>
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.140625 secs.