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PDL chart - key, cejilla, tuning   You are logged in as Guest
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joevidetto

 

Posts: 191
Joined: Jun. 15 2013
 

PDL chart - key, cejilla, tuning 

Hi,

I'm wondering if anyone has (or would be willing) to help put together a chart of which PDL pieces use altered tunings, as well as which cejilla position and key they are in. I'm especially interested in the later albums, Solo Quiero Caminar and onward.

On second thought - there is really no need for an extensive chart - most is on the internet - only tricky thing is when there is no live performance, and also altered tunings - so only those would be important

Best,
Joe
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 30 2021 17:17:16
 
Piwin

 

Posts: 3566
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Jan. 31 2021 10:05:40
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2021 9:45:30
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14984
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: PDL chart - key, cejilla, tuning (in reply to joevidetto

I made a chart for the Rondeña “Camaron” on the album luzia. Mainly I just wanted to get a handle on what is
happening harmonically in that exotic piece.



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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2021 21:20:30
 
joevidetto

 

Posts: 191
Joined: Jun. 15 2013
 

RE: PDL chart - key, cejilla, tuning (in reply to joevidetto

quote:

I made a chart for the Rondeña “Camaron” on the album luzia. Mainly I just wanted to get a handle on what is happening harmonically in that exotic piece.


Wow - that's a generous share. Did you figure that one out by ear ?

When I wrote the word 'chart' - I actually meant table, but I'm glad you took it and responded with that chart.

For me, when I want to memorize a piece, I really need some type of chart or notes. I will find one or 2 of my own and share - and ask that perhaps some of our other members would do the same - even if it's crytpic and not yet perfectly presentable.

I find it interesting that many flamenco transcriptions do not put the chords on top, which could be really useful for those that want to understand the piece harmonically. In some pieces - there is a second guitar, and there is no reason for them not do do so imho. But for those that don't have a second guitar - well that is a bit trickier and you would need much more experience to figure them out. Though most people that can transcribe at that level certainly could have added those chords if they wanted to (yes - I know, with publishers it's about get something, anything, out asap)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 31 2021 22:55:11
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14984
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: PDL chart - key, cejilla, tuning (in reply to joevidetto

Got it sorry, I read “chart” and thought oh yes I have one

Let’s see.

Tajo (Rondeña tuning DADF#BE capo 2? C# phrygian).
mi inspiracion (drop D, D major and D minor silencio)
Mantilla de Féria (DGDGBE capo 2? Key of G major and G phrygian)
Doblan companas (Rondeña capo 2)
Farruca de Lucia (Drop D, D minor)
Canastera (Rondeña capo 3?)
Cueva del Gato (Rondeña capo 3)
Cobre (sevillanas multi tracked using Drop D in Dmajor, D minor and Rondeña again, each one is different key if I recall)
Solo quiero caminar (drop D D phrygian por abajo)
Monestario de sal (drop D, D major but it modulates a lot).
Piñonate (drop A,ADGAD capo 4 por medio).
Cañada (same as above)
Mi niño Curro (Rondeña capo 2, live capo 1)

Amazingly Zyryab is all standard tuning
Camaron (Rondeña)
El Tesorillo (same as Piñonate and Cañada, capo 5).
Second guitar on Volar uses drop C# for C# phrygian.

Seems he was more into alternate tunings in his youth during the traditional period. Mantilla de Féria is by Esteban de Sanlucar. The drop A tuning is probably inspired by McLaughlin who liked to do that for his solo feature with the Trio. Ramon Montoya is attributed to creating the Rondeña, a form Paco clearly loved to work with since his youth.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 1 2021 2:10:21
 
JasonM

Posts: 2081
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: PDL chart - key, cejilla, tuning (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I made a chart for the Rondeña “Camaron”


I’ve glanced this over and looks correct so far
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 1 2021 15:05:44
 
mt1007

Posts: 162
Joined: Jan. 19 2011
 

RE: PDL chart - key, cejilla, tuning (in reply to joevidetto

hahaha yo Ricardo i'd hate to show up to that gig where they put this chart as the first number of the set hahahahaha nice chart though man it will be fun to run through it and improv first things first, listen to song and analyze.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 1 2021 18:09:44
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14984
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: PDL chart - key, cejilla, tuning (in reply to JasonM

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

quote:

I made a chart for the Rondeña “Camaron”


I’ve glanced this over and looks correct so far


Ooops, capo 2

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 1 2021 20:39:27
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1809
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: PDL chart - key, cejilla, tuning (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Mantilla de Féria (DGDGBE capo 2?


Definitely (although I’ve seen people try to play it in A). The harmonics at the end give it away.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 2 2021 19:27:59
 
kitarist

Posts: 1719
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: PDL chart - key, cejilla, tuning (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Cobre (sevillanas multi tracked using Drop D in Dmajor, D minor and Rondeña again, each one is different key if I recall)


Sevillana 1: D major, drop D, capo on 2
Sevillana 2: por rondena, DADF#BE, capo on 3
Sevillana 3: D minor, drop D, capo on 2
Sevillana 4: (por medio), capo on 4.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 2 2021 19:42:34
 
ernandez R

Posts: 758
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: PDL chart - key, cejilla, tuning (in reply to joevidetto

Slightly off topic: what is the history of the cejilla in Flamenco, I've not even one in any historical photos, could be I was not looking.

Heard someone joke about a ballpoint pen and rubberbands and I tried it. Don't laugh. Next day im out to the shop and cut up a little piece of hickory on the band saw, drilled holes first for hooks, see foto, then used a few hair ties cause that's what was handy. About four minutes, not having any leather glued on some scrap cork but saw old glove with ripped seam as I was walking out the shop door. Next time. Not really practical course it took four fresh hair ties but it works well enough for now.

HR





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I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 2 2021 22:16:10
 
kitarist

Posts: 1719
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: PDL chart - key, cejilla, tuning (in reply to ernandez R

quote:

Slightly off topic: what is the history of the cejilla in Flamenco, I've not even one in any historical photos, could be I was not looking.


Consensus is late 1700s; design same as it's always been. Same timing with the English yoke version of capo.

Some early cejillas: http://www.sternercapo.se/Capomuseum/Strap/Nonelastic/nonelast.htm

Capo = Capo tasto = head fret. Originally referring to what we now call the nut.

First documented uttering of that word - in 1640 by Giovanni Battista Doni in his treatise "Annotazioni sopra il Compendio del Trattato de' generi e de' modi della musica".

BTW this is the same dude who is said to have cleverly changed the solfege syllable for 'C' from 'Ut' to 'Do', claiming it stands for 'Dominus' and that it is more musical to pronounce. His contemporaries suspected the real reason was that it was short for 'Doni', his family name. (Though Doni refers to 'C' as 'Ut' here. Also, apparently the use of the syllable "do" is already attested in 1536 (long before the birth of Doni) in a text by Pietro Aretino). Doni died in 1647, seven years after the publication of 'Annotazioni'.

So in that 1640 book, while 'capotasto' is used to refer to the nut, the book does refer to a 'tastino' as in a little fret, seemingly meaning a movable fret, and there is a drawing of it, for an eight-string bass violon fretted instrument - the design even has a couple of flippable stops so the strings underneath can ring at their original pitch with the capo on, if desired:



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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 3 2021 0:33:51
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14984
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: PDL chart - key, cejilla, tuning (in reply to kitarist

Great find Kitarist. The flamenco mythology is that Patiño used it first for flamenco to play for cante. I believe it was already in practice to drop the pitch of Granaina to accompany cante de las minas, for singers lower than B, and young upstarts like Ramon Montoya where doing this exotic new key (Taranta) called “toque levante” with cejilla instead. Minera and Rondeña soon followed.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 3 2021 1:52:32
 
kitarist

Posts: 1719
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: PDL chart - key, cejilla, tuning (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

The flamenco mythology is that Patiño used it first for flamenco to play for cante.


May very well have been, for flamenco, in Spain. Since he was born in 1829, the current evidence of a cejilla (referring to the type of capo with the string and the repurposed friction tuning peg; not its provenance) seems to be slightly on the earlier side - late 1700s-early 1800s. But that just means someone in the world came up with it, not necessarily in Spain. That first old cejilla on the capo history page is from 1830s, but says "probably French".

Funny given the Beni2 ask in the other thread - google-reading Patiño's bios around the web I notice that the phrase "por abajo" occurs, in the context of pioneering techniques(?) for flamenco. However, it seems this might be referring to the separation of bass line from generic strumming (as a flamenco technique development milestone) rather than about coming up with D flamenco.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 3 2021 17:46:04
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3625
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: PDL chart - key, cejilla, tuning (in reply to Paul Magnussen

quote:

quote:

Mantilla de Féria (DGDGBE capo 2?


Definitely (although I’ve seen people try to play it in A).


Is it possible to play it in A in standard tuning instead? sounds interesting...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 3 2021 19:00:36
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1809
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: PDL chart - key, cejilla, tuning (in reply to Ricardo

La Niña de Puerta Oscura (Standard, capo 3)
Roja de Celos (Standard, capo 2)

BTW, can anyone please explain the title of the last-named for me? My Spanish isn’t good enough.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2021 0:34:32
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