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Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone?   You are logged in as Guest
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Fluknu

 

Posts: 134
Joined: Jan. 11 2021
 

Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? 

Hello,
I finally decided to register, but I've been reading this forum since a few years.
I've been practicing flamenco for 3 years now, with a background of electric guitar (jazz funk rock) in my twenties. I'm 50 now.

I made quite an adavance in these 3 years, but I started recording myself recently...and OH....my Buleria sounded like ****. Not the sound, but the rythm. As soon as I make a change of technique, like a rasqueo, the rythm is lost, slightly, but undeniably. I practice my buleria with a metronome at around 200 (i put it at 100 so it's half, but going 200).
I got a shock when listening....i didn't touch my guitar for 2 days. :)
Now I decided, i can stop altogether, or I can tackle the problem and work on the groove.
I decided to tackle the problem...I'm an addict now:)
Can anyone help me , or have tricks?

Here is what I plan to do:
- play slower and record myself. My max speed is the speed where I don't loose the rythm
- Record myself more and more
- play with a beat, that stops suddenly for x bars and then comes back, and see if i'm in. I do that with garageband.

The problem seems really to be the changes in right hand techniques.
I have to add that I tap my feets.

I would be so happy to know what you think about all that and if you have any practice tricks.

Thanks in advance,
Fluknu
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2021 8:11:16
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13288
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? (in reply to Fluknu

Good news is that hearing yourself being off is the first main step in the right direction...sadly many people think they are “on” if they are pretty close and keep going with no end in sight to the problem they think will “work itself out”. Keep in mind, I saw in 2001 PDL kept a metronome in his guitar case...and he informed Farru the dancer in 2010 to always practice with it and keep in check all the elements.

First thing is to zero in on specific spot and loop it. Doesn’t have to be a full compas cycle even, and indeed, it is often some small hiccup that is causing problems that gets magnified when adding a whole bunch of these hiccups together. I think using foot and metronome together in a groove concept is the way to go, rather than play very slow. Take this example...it is both the way to practice a problem spot and learn new material. IN this case I was learning a new thing and trying to internalize it. It can apply to strumming compas patterns or falsetas, doesn’t really matter. If you apply this simple groove concept you can fix a lot of problems in a short time IMO.



_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2021 14:02:41
 
Fluknu

 

Posts: 134
Joined: Jan. 11 2021
 

RE: Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? (in reply to Ricardo

Thank you Ricardo,
The video is very explicative and I will practice this way. As you say, I have seen today that a hiccup here, plus the next one there, makes the groove terrible. I have broken down the parts and I already hear a change (also on recording).

I have never tried the technique you suggest for falsetas. I work very slow and then speed up gradually. But your way sounds really efficient.

As for realising that one's tempo is sometimes off...yes, it's certainly the best thing that can happen. And now that my ego crisis is gone, I see it as a blessing.

Many thanks to you and your response. I'll keep you posted-
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 11 2021 19:03:43
 
ernandez R

Posts: 526
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? (in reply to Fluknu

Live by the metranome, die by the metranome!

Couple weeks ago a started doing my 2.5 hour physical therapy with a metranome, started with my old wittier but then using the Raven Flaminco java script one from their website. Early this morning I was noodling through a bulairus and missed a cord but just swung right back in compas, a light went on in my head as I realized although I had screwed up I had actually stayed in compas. Ole!

I have all these walking styles and some basics calisthenics I need do and at specific reps per minute, I just started doing them in compas, so instead of fifteen push-ups or squats or whatever I do two twelve beat compas, most at 120 beats so kinda slow...

I havnt started dreaming in twelve beats but bet I do ;)

There was a guy on the foro some time ago who said he was driving his wife insane doing rosgaoes on his thigh at all times as he was trying to master the finger movements.,I've tried to do this while doing my python-esc silly walks but I'm not that stable on my healing foot yet.

Whatever it takes.

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2021 3:17:17
 
ernandez R

Posts: 526
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? (in reply to Ricardo

Ricardo,

I never was a foot tapper, seemed I never did it consistly in any way that was logical. Not saying I couldn't or shouldn't. My brain can get confused trying to play and tap my foot at the same time, at some point long ago I stopped worrying about it. I have a string sence of beat where I found myself with others who did not, my ex wife called me metranome man but not sure it was a compliment...

HR

_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2021 3:22:39
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13288
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? (in reply to ernandez R

quote:

Ricardo,

I never was a foot tapper, seemed I never did it consistly in any way that was logical. Not saying I couldn't or shouldn't. My brain can get confused trying to play and tap my foot at the same time, at some point long ago I stopped worrying about it. I have a string sence of beat where I found myself with others who did not, my ex wife called me metranome man but not sure it was a compliment...


What I did on video above should really be done with metronome...and by that I don’t mean the fancy flamenco ones, but the basic click doing what my foot is trying to do. The double edge sword of the foot tap is I can change the speed as needed....in other words several spots there I needed even slower than my basic groove tempo to get the correct feel...especially the 3 against 2 spots as can be seen. So I am attaching the feel I need to the foot, which later helps me when speeding up. The down side is the actual foot tap is not a reliable reference and it is almost impossible to know for sure if, after tying it to the foot, that either it or my playing is not even.

Both used together is the ideal scenario and now that I am old, my foot gets tired and I just use metronome.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2021 13:38:37
 
JasonM

Posts: 1783
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Both used together is the ideal scenario and now that I am old, my foot gets tired and I just use metronome.


Same here, but at my level I’m not so sure it’s a good thing. Foot gets tired practicing the same thing over and over again so I get lazy and just use the metronome, then I become dependent on having it to be sure I’ve got a section of a falseta correct.

Mr Marlow has a metronome built into his brain. No joke
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 14 2021 15:50:13
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1135
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Both used together is the ideal scenario and now that I am old, my foot gets tired and I just use metronome.

No wonder when someone taps his foot with this kind of shoes on. I've seen someone wearing these gitano shoes as well.



What about the right foot? It won't tap in Paco's sitting position, but it can be used as a substitute for the left foot when it gets tired.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 14 2021 17:11:38
 
Fluknu

 

Posts: 134
Joined: Jan. 11 2021
 

RE: Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? (in reply to Fluknu

Personnaly I tap the feet like this: left on 12, right on 2 and four, then left on 6 and so on. I feel good with that pattern.

So I've been working with Ricardo's technique and things are already improving. I noticed that any out of the beat thing is due to a technical problem on that small part. So I loop it, as in the video. I came up also with some technical exercises to fix these things.
The ohter thing, is that by focusing on beeing in sync with the metronome, it has augmented my awareness on that aspect. So I greatly focus my attention on beeing perfectly synced. When not, I see quickly what causes the problem, I loop it and fix it.

It's quite a trip and a pleasure to work like this.

Salutation from Switzerland...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 15 2021 10:43:40
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13288
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? (in reply to Fluknu

Great work, keep it up amigo!

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 15 2021 17:40:50
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1135
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? (in reply to Fluknu

quote:

Personnaly I tap the feet like this: left on 12, right on 2 and four, then left on 6 and so on. I feel good with that pattern.

So your sitting position is traditional?
As for the foot tap, I would not tap my both left and right foot interchangeably as you described. Either left or right.

_____________________________

Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 16 2021 20:43:56
 
Fluknu

 

Posts: 134
Joined: Jan. 11 2021
 

RE: Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? (in reply to Fluknu

Yes, exactly, traditional. But I use a device to raise the gitar. No idea how it's called. I must say I still haven't found the perfect position.
Tapping with left foot the beats 12 and 6 allows me to see where I'm in the compas. I must add that I do this for Bulerias. I use only the right foot for alegrias, solea and solea por buleria. For tango I tap 1 on the left and 3 on right. But I must admit that when I use a different position with the guitar, I'm a bit lost.

Why do you think it's better to use only one foot? I'm interested.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 17 2021 10:09:09
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 1135
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? (in reply to Fluknu

quote:

Why do you think it's better to use only one foot? I'm interested.

For a simple reason. I think our brain is just not good at multitasking e.g. coordinating 2 feet is harder than 1 feet. They're to a certain degree not independent.

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Say No to Fuera de Compás!!!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 17 2021 12:38:18
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13288
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

Why do you think it's better to use only one foot? I'm interested.

For a simple reason. I think our brain is just not good at multitasking e.g. coordinating 2 feet is harder than 1 feet. They're to a certain degree not independent.


Tell that to Dave Lombardo, Vinnie Paul, Scott Travis, and Dennis Chambers.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 17 2021 17:16:40
 
Fluknu

 

Posts: 134
Joined: Jan. 11 2021
 

RE: Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? (in reply to Fluknu

Ricardo.
Yeah, as always, there are many ways to do things. @Devilhand: it makes sense though.

The thing is that for Buleria, alternating left and right has become totally natural and I dont' even think about it. I'm surprised by that myself. So for the moment I go on like this.

One thing that is interesting is that no matter the compas style, as soon as I do an abanico, my feet get slightly out of sync with the metronome. (actualy except Buleria).

Working on that at the moment.

But the thing with the brain is certainly of importance. I think that we can focus only on one thing. Flamenco has so many little specialities and difficulties, dynamics, change of position in right hand, and so on, that it's a real challenge. I notice that my attention shifts from one domain to the other. Like be in sync, keep breathing, left hand position, right hand position. Sometimes I choose three domain to focus on, sometime one. For example the feet tapping left/right for Buleria took me a few weeks of focus. Now I don't have to attend to it anymore. It's on automatic pilot.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2021 7:52:10
 
ric

 

Posts: 83
Joined: Dec. 27 2010
 

RE: Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? (in reply to Fluknu

Interesting, about practice in general. There was a YT video with Herbie Hancock and he was talking about a time when he was bored(!) and stymied by his own playing (!!) and even Miles told him to "watch the butter notes" which Herbie interpreted(paraphrasing) as Miles seeing that he was "stuck", so Herbie took out the (fifth?) in his chording and how that opened up a different approach for him.
You never think the greats are stuck or bored with a rut, but apparently it does happen. Misery loves company, and thanks to Ricardo for his great insight!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2021 14:53:49
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13288
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? (in reply to ric

quote:

ORIGINAL: ric

Interesting, about practice in general. There was a YT video with Herbie Hancock and he was talking about a time when he was bored(!) and stymied by his own playing (!!) and even Miles told him to "watch the butter notes" which Herbie interpreted(paraphrasing) as Miles seeing that he was "stuck", so Herbie took out the (fifth?) in his chording and how that opened up a different approach for him.
You never think the greats are stuck or bored with a rut, but apparently it does happen. Misery loves company, and thanks to Ricardo for his great insight!


Yes I saw that one. Actually miles said DON”T play the butter notes...meaning, herbie was landing his phrases on the sweet chord tones like 3rd and 7th and it was therefore making his lines predictable. So Miles was saying that sure he mastered the ability to make his lines sweet, now it was time to go backward and focus on all the tensions and out notes that used to be seen as mistakes but make them the focus or goal to spice things up. At least that is how I interpreted it. I went through a similar phase myself, I would just play in “key” whatever note I ended up on was not a big concern and that made a lot of un intended tension in my improvisations. Not to mention the bad timing. Later I learned outlining chords. Honestly I am not at herbie level so I am quite content with this level LOL, but every once in a while I get brave and try to deliberately hit the wrong notes, or rather, make the wrong notes works. One rule I follow is if I make a mistake during improvisation, then the next cycle or phrase I try to recreate the same error so it seems like it was deliberate. Truth is that only makes my band mates have a giggle.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 18 2021 17:29:43
 
Fluknu

 

Posts: 134
Joined: Jan. 11 2021
 

RE: Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? (in reply to Fluknu

If anyone finds the link to the video taht would be cool.

The thing I remember from an interview from Miles (and no idea which one), was that he advised to play with silence. That has stayed with me eversince. It's quite true that when improvising we think about the sounds we want (sometimes we get directed by randomness or the pattern of course), but we seldom think about silence or emptiness as part of what we want to express. One can think about this concept by supressing certain notes, or also seeing silence as a note in itself. I actually don't go to see any jazz concert anymore....I think they all suffer from verbal diarreha.
With the new generation of flamenco guitar player, I hear that a lot, the silence as part of notes. The suggestion of the note that could be there, but is not. I love that solea from potito with Vicente on the guitar. I think space is so well managed.

https://youtu.be/HfJGlJZmW-Q
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 19 2021 9:46:48
 
ric

 

Posts: 83
Joined: Dec. 27 2010
 

RE: Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? (in reply to Ricardo

Yes, thanks for the correction. I couldn't remember what intervals (3rd, 7th) or what Miles said, just the butter notes. Perhaps bread and butter, or color flavor, regardless, he got the point.
For myself I'm basically a lazy player and when I solo (on rare occasions) I just pick a note a see what happens--then I hit many bad notes, and yeah, if you hit something unintended, how do you make it fit? Of course you are taking it a step further--good for you (my bad).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 19 2021 14:44:02
 
JasonM

Posts: 1783
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? (in reply to ric

quote:

couldn't remember what intervals (3rd, 7th)


Think that’s what they call the shell voicing, right? Idea is you play just that so you don’t over crowd the lead or bassist. Poor guy was just doing his job lol
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 19 2021 16:55:05
 
Fluknu

 

Posts: 134
Joined: Jan. 11 2021
 

RE: Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? (in reply to Fluknu

I'm continuing to focus on keeping the rythm. it's quite a trip. One of the thing I do is to have the metronome only on certain beats. For example, in tango, I put a click on 4 on the first measure, none on the second and again on 4 on the third measure, and so on. It allows me to see if I'm consistent. I have one measure without metronome and I try to stay in place.
Tango and buleria, with this system, are quite ok. The problem is with Solea por Buleria. I think that my feet tapping is not good to keep the rythm and I would be interested in knowing how you do it. I tap with the right foot, 12, 3, 6,8, and 10. between the 12 and 3 (and 3 and 6) is a long interval, and it seems it allows me to get out of sync. Any other way/experience for Solea por Buleria...and same with Solea.

Another thing is that with the 12 3 6 8 10 it's kind of a bit tricky to sync the 12 3 7 8 10 accents of the Solea por Buleria. I manage, but it feels uncomfortable.
I hope this is understanble.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 27 2021 21:30:05
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13288
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? (in reply to Fluknu

Solea is typically the basic beat of count. 1-12. Buleria has some variations, 2,4,6, 8 ect, 12,3,6,9, or combo of those 2, or 1,2,4,5,7,8,10,11 etc. My general rule is 2,4,6 for buleria unless the passage is long in 3’s then I tap 12,3,6,9.

solea por buleria and alegria are in that grey area and you see many players do various personal things. Just pick one and stick too it. I tend to try the accents most of the time...some tricky syncopated 16th passages I might learn every beat but it gets tiring. Chicuelo does every beat like solea.

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www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 27 2021 23:23:47
 
Fluknu

 

Posts: 134
Joined: Jan. 11 2021
 

RE: Keeping the rythm- tricks anyone? (in reply to Fluknu

Thanks. I just had a look at some Chicuelo Videos. Every beat indeed for solea. I'm gonna try different things and experiment. and then stick to it.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 28 2021 11:23:40
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