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JasonM

Posts: 1565
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

Solera Flamenca Strings 



In between all of this talk about Torres and hand injuries, he says Luthier was sold with the machinery and firm being split up, and the strings are now no longer good. Does this mean he has since tried the "new" Luthier strings that none of us here even knew were being sold, or maybe he just means the new strings will be no good because of this fact and to buy their strings instead.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 11 2020 5:22:37
 
mt1007

Posts: 139
Joined: Jan. 19 2011
 

RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to JasonM

J,

from what i gather he basically states that Luthier strings were his go to strings. and now that they no longer exist, his shop decided to make strings/get strings made to specs because he did not like any other strings available on the market. i think for being new kids on the block they are charging a lot for strings, i think like 13 or 14 euros something like that. chale.......
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 11 2020 6:12:42
 
JasonM

Posts: 1565
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to mt1007

Mt, ok thanks for clarifying . Figured things might have got lost in translation a little.

Hmm not surprised to hear about the price. Plus availability in the U.S might be a factor for me, But I’d be willing to try a set. Proof is in the playing, Solera!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 11 2020 15:16:39
 
rombsix

Posts: 7483
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to JasonM

I've never understood the deal with strings. All of them are basically the same for me... If the strings on your guitar are bothering you, there's a quick fix. Just stop playing, or play 30 minutes every month. That's been my strategy!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 11 2020 15:59:53
 
Richard Jernigan

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Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to rombsix

The--how should I say it?--grouchiest luthier I have ever known said, "You can always tell who has a bad guitar. They keep trying different strings."

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 11 2020 17:52:06
 
BarkellWH

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Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

The--how should I say it?--grouchiest luthier I have ever known said, "You can always tell who has a bad guitar. They keep trying different strings."


A variation on your luthier's statement: "You can always tell a poor guitarist. They keep trying different strings."

Bill

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Who tried to hustle the East."

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 11 2020 18:01:07
 
mark indigo

 

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RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

The--how should I say it?--grouchiest luthier I have ever known said, "You can always tell who has a bad guitar. They keep trying different strings."


I have had a couple of guitars that I tried lots of different sets on and then gave up and sold them. I have stuck with the same set (Royal Classics Sonata) that came on my two Stephen Eden guitars.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 11 2020 18:16:30
 
kitarist

Posts: 1177
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RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to JasonM

quote:

to buy their strings instead


I think that's the sum total of it

It was a lot of talking for saying virtually nothing. But he is frighteningly good at being persuasive - I will likely avoid going to Solera for fear I might end up with a broken banjo convinced it was an original Torres in mint condition

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Konstantin
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 11 2020 18:19:31
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 11 2020 22:21:50
 
JasonM

Posts: 1565
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From: Baltimore

RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

You can always tell who has a bad guitar. They keep trying different strings."


😞
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2020 15:20:08
 
kitarist

Posts: 1177
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to JasonM

quote:

he says Luthier was sold with the machinery and firm being split up


I wanted to comment on this as well, specifically about treble strings and who makes them.

Whatever these machines were, they would not have been actually making strings - at least the treble strings. Possibly the 'machines' is referring to semi- or fully-manually winding silver-dipped copper around a core for bass strings as well as other machines for packaging etc.

About a year or so ago Mimmo Peruffo, the owner of Aquila and a chemist, explained in detail what the situation is - all string companies apart from Aquila (and now D'Addario who have been operating a small extruder in the last couple of years) do not have actual extruder machines so they buy trebles made by big plastics manufacturers. Maybe Luthier are another exception, but that would be news.

As far as nylon trebles are concerned, the only nylons used by almost all of the brands are: PA 6-12 (regular nylon strings, what e.g. DuPont calls Tynex and also used for the bristles in paintbrushes and toothbrushes); PA 12 (Cristal or New Cristal as branded by Savarez) and a co-polymer (nylon co-polymer by Toray made in Japan for D'Addario).

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Konstantin
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2020 18:59:37
 
JasonM

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From: Baltimore

RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to kitarist

Wow, I didn’t know that. Interesting. So if there are only 3 nylon formulations, what does each string brand do differently to be unique besides change diameter? Are they specifying density or additives, maybe? I know the Aquila guy experiments with additives.

You can see Luthier’s machines in this video. I guess these are the winders you are referring to.

https://youtu.be/iImliDEX8Ik
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2020 20:22:08
 
kitarist

Posts: 1177
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RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to JasonM

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM

Wow, I didn’t know that. Interesting. So if there are only 3 nylon formulations, what does each string brand do differently to be unique besides change diameter? Are they specifying density or additives, maybe? I know the Aquila guy experiments with additives.


Aquila is its own universe; apart from extruding their own nylon strings, they also utilize new materials they discovered, for example their nylgut (synthetic gut string) which is a type of polyester; the sugar polymer; also blends of sugar and nylgut (as you can actually mix those); also other things specially for g-strings. So I'll put them aside for the moment, even for the nylon question you asked.

The string companies have very limited options to be different; apart from marketing and combining in sets and choosing different plastics producers.

They have to rely on the plastics producers to make the actual strings, and those are offered in standard diameters from a given plastics producer. Maybe across the few producers there is in total a larger variety offered if they sell slightly different diameters but it's not clear if that's the case (I've only seen the DuPont availability sheet for Tynex).

Also there is no ability to make different PA 612. Though due to working conditions at the plastics plant or some proprietary differences in the manufacturing process (which is not public info) there might be some slight property differences like stiffness. (but keep in mind nylon stiffness varies with temperature and relative humidity anyway).

So essentially if you know what the exact nylon is - say PA 612 - that pretty much locks in the physical and musical properties apart from the diameter.

The "real" reason the plastics producers offer PA 612 is for toothbrushes (and for some paintbrushes) bristles. They would only make transparent, black, or white; unless some custom order - but musical nylon strings are a tiny market compared to that for toothbrushes, paintbrushes, or even for fishing line (the latter PA 6 or PA 66 so no good for guitar strings; unless it is PVDF "carbon" but here we are just talking about the nylon options).

For example the 28,32,40 mils sizes (i.e. 0.028, 0.032, 0.040 in, or approx. 0.71, 0.81, 1.01mm for e, b, g trebles) happen to be on the DuPont Tynex availability list among others, and they are good for medium tension nylon trebles. But you can't order say 28.6 mils for e-treble from DuPont to be different from other string companies - it is simply not on the availability list, so you have to see what other diameters other plastics producers offer, if any different; or just stick with 28 mils.

They sell them to string companies in 'hanks' of about 1.5-2 kg - a bundle some 4-5cm diameter with hundreds of straight nylon strings inside, at whatever standard length DuPont, say, chooses, like "117cm +- 3cm".

One interesting thing to keep in mind is that the 'identical' strings in that bundle are not identical in diameter between one another but vary in a Gaussian sense around the mean diameter. So for example a bundle with 0.71 mm strings would have a Gaussian distribution inside of diameters from about 0.70 to 0.72, or larger variation if quality control was not very tight. This is a consequence of having dies with up to 250 holes to make that many strings simultaneously in the extrusion process: there are (unavoidable) micro-differences in temperature across that die so even if the holes are identical, the strings come out with slight variation in diameter.

The string companies can add some colour dye but that's about it in terms of customizing after the manufacturing at the plastics plant. Apparently that addition would not change the density appreciably.


quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonM
You can see Luthier’s machines in this video. I guess these are the winders you are referring to.

https://youtu.be/iImliDEX8Ik


Thanks, that's great. Yes, these are just winders. Nylon monofilament extruders are complex big machines and difficult to calibrate and run. And that's just for nylon varieties (PA =Polyamide). The extruders for "carbon" strings, i.e. for PVDF = Polyvinylidene fluoride, are a nightmare to run as there's risk, unless monitored very tightly, while in process, of explosion, or decomposition of the melted polymer, and of release of hydrofluoric (HF) acid which is like the stuff of horror movies (Side note - it is what some of the "Breaking Bad"'s main characters used for dissolving... um... some "parts").

However, once the carbon string is produced, it is extremely stable chemically and non-absorbing, which is why PVDF is what pipes, bottles and filters in nanopure water or other ultra-clean systems are made out of.

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Konstantin
Foro cante accompaniment practice tracks (zip file)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2020 5:34:28
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12673
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to kitarist

quote:

there's risk while in process of explosion, or decomposition of the polymer, and of release of hydrofluoric (HF) acid which is like the stuff of nightmares


Try our new Explosive Strings! Your music will be in a constant state of decomposition and your picados will release hydrofluoric acid duende on the listener!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2020 16:04:35
 
AndresK

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RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to kitarist

Wow! Super thanks for that info! Well I wish Aquila had some warmer and more "body" in sound for the given tensions they have. Most of their stings do not deliver the full bodied sound of nylon (as they do not intend to do that anyway). The only thing I have not tried (from Aquila's modern strings and not historical sets) is the Ambra2000 (which also is Nylgut trebles and Rayon basses that might be interesting) and the Perla.

Aquila has cool stuff for sure. But sticking with a string has to be more than cool and innovative. So it is not unwise to trust someone with experience. I would give these Solera strings a chance after I try some Knoblochs that are on the way. For Europe, Solera's strings is a bit more expensive than the Knoblochs and RC strings.. but ok.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2020 16:07:25
 
JasonM

Posts: 1565
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to kitarist

quote:

The string companies have very limited options to be different; apart from marketing and combining in sets and choosing different plastics producers


So theoretically, if we knew the catalog numbers that Luthier used, we could order 3 giant spoils. Lifetime supply of stings for everyone on the foro!

Fascinating info, Konstantine. Thanks for sharing. I always wondered what the difference between guitar strings and fishing line was.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2020 18:08:31
 
kitarist

Posts: 1177
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to JasonM

quote:

I always wondered what the difference between guitar strings and fishing line was.


For "carbon" (i.e. PVDF) fishing line, there is no difference at all, which is why you see some on the delcamp forum discussing Seaguar carbon spools and buying them for use as carbon strings. For example, this thread: Fluorocarbon Fishing Line Update

For nylon, the fishing nylon is either PA6 or PA66 which is not good for musical strings. I misspoke earlier when I mentioned fishing and PA 12; corrected above. So don't buy nylon fishing spools; but PVDF "carbon" - as long as you find the right diameter, it is exactly the same stuff as any "carbon" guitar string.

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Konstantin
Foro cante accompaniment practice tracks (zip file)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2020 20:25:09
 
kitarist

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RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to JasonM

quote:

So theoretically, if we knew the catalog numbers that Luthier used, we could order 3 giant spoils. Lifetime supply of stings for everyone on the foro!


Totally. Here's what a 'hank' of strings looks like (these happen to be white, but it would be the same type of bundle if transparent; it should be enough for a while



(Picture by Mimmo/Aquila)

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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Konstantin
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2020 20:39:18
 
kitarist

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RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

there's risk while in process of explosion, or decomposition of the polymer, and of release of hydrofluoric (HF) acid which is like the stuff of nightmares


Try our new Explosive Strings! Your music will be in a constant state of decomposition and your picados will release hydrofluoric acid duende on the listener!



Yes, joke, but just in case someone else thinks it is more, I clarified in my post above by underlining "in process", clarifying that I was referring to the melted polymer, and adding another brief paragraph stating that the finished product is actually extremely stable chemically, so much so that it is what is used in filters, bottles, pipes for any systems requiring ultra-pure conditions.

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Konstantin
Foro cante accompaniment practice tracks (zip file)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2020 21:04:43
 
kitarist

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RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to AndresK

quote:

for the given tensions they have


This reminds me it will be good to post here a summary of another very important point for guitarists, on listed string tensions by string companies.

What is on the package (let's assume no typos/errors in it) is off-guitar, unstretched string, tension - as calculated by a (completely valid, physics-based) formula based on the unstretched diameter of the string, some reference scale length, the intended pitch frequency, and the material density.

But this unstretched-string tension is really of no use to guitarists. The tension of the strings when on the guitar is never what the posted tension is - since the strings stretch and thus the real diameter of each string is reduced, this lowers the real tension the string needs to be at to be at pitch.

What we need is not the apparent, unstretched new string, off-guitar tension, but instead the real, functional tensions for on-guitar strings which have stabilized enough (i.e. past the initial period of fairly rapid stretching and losing pitch).

It is very frustrating that not only do the string companies not provide that, but everyone who sells strings is forced by this practice to keep doing the same - list the unstretched pre-guitar tensions.

Where this pre-guitar tension is especially misleading and even affects possible string purchases is when we see that some treble e-string etc. made from "carbon" or sugar polymer or nylgut has very high posted such tension. I have been freaked out in the past by some very high listed tensions and chose not to try some strings believing my guitar cannot handle these; but this is completely wrong.

The reason non-nylon materials for e-treble (most obvious with e-treble) have higher off-guitar tensions listed (than same string for nylon) is because they stretch a lot more than PA 612, about twice as much. So the off-guitar tensions are still designed so that the actual, stabilized on-guitar tensions will be about the same as that of PA 612 nylons strings.

For example PVDF "carbon" stretches more, so the apparent e-treble tension is higher, but the stabilized on-guitar tension is about the same as nylon because the string's diameter decreases by a bit more due to the material stretching more before getting to a quasi-steady state. Similarly for sugar and nylgut.

Separately, if you look at normal PA 612 nylon apparent pre-guitar tension - i.e. what is posted on the string sets as tension, you get a typical tension profile from 1 to 6 L to R like this, very uneven - but this is also by design and due to similar considerations but involving diameter:



The reason for this uneven pre-guitar unstretched string tension profile is because smaller diameter nylon stretches more than larger diameter, and this profile itself has been designed to compensate so that, in quasi-stable condition on the guitar, the actual, functional, tension would be more even:

e-treble would come down in tension more than b-treble would (hence the pre-guitar tensions designed are with e-treble having higher tension than b-treble). And for basses the same, though a bit more subdued difference due to combination of different materials - D-bass would stretch out a bit more than A-bass; E-bass the least, so again the quasi-stable actual tension on the guitar would be more even across the basses as well.

So in summary,
____(1) non-nylon treble strings material stretches out more than nylon, and
____(2) within the trebles of the same material - be it nylon or carbon or other - the thinner strings stretch out more than the thicker ones.

For these reasons the listed pre-guitar, unstretched string tension profile looks the way it does and it gets a steeper gradient for non-nylon material. However, the stabilized, on-guitar actual tension profile is about the same across all materials (designed to be that way) - and is a a lot flatter than the listed one.

Finally, it would be ideal if the real stable tension profile is completely flat, i.e. every string yields in about the same way when pushed across it on the guitar at a usual playing point. This was not possible for nylon because the g-treble would have had to be even thicker (about 1.12 mm so more than 10% thicker than what is used) and sounded very dull when this was experimented with. So the compromise was to have the maximum diameter - around 1mm - for g-treble that 1940s guitarists can tolerate the sound of, which meant it yielded a bit more when pushed compared to e- and b- trebles as its real tension is a bit lower than it should be for 'even feel'.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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Konstantin
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2020 21:57:20
 
JasonM

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From: Baltimore

RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to kitarist

So I think if I understand correctly, the tension is a theoretical number based on a calculation of variables.

As I’ve been trying out new strings, I’ve been measuring the diameters of the treble strings for the brands that don’t publish. Feel like it’s the only way to get a relative baseline. And funny, I just realized that I wasn’t getting an accurate number with the strings on the guitar and I had a hunch it was due to stretch. The diameter got slightly narrower away from the bridge.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2020 2:57:23
 
Ricardo

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RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to kitarist

It’s so interesting ... I can’t stand it! It’s like finding out your entire family are inbreeding

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2020 3:53:35
 
kitarist

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RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to JasonM

quote:

the tension is a theoretical number based on a calculation of variables.


Yes the string tension listed by the string companies is not measured but calculated with a formula. The problem is not that it is formula-calculated rather than measured - it is that they use the diameter of the unstretched string for the calculation. So this listed tension is hypothetical - it never occurs - as soon as you put the new string on and start winding to bring it up to pitch, it starts stretching, its diameter decreasing, which means it gets to pitch at a tension lower than the listed one (and on and on until it stabilizes enough).

We want to know the real tension of the string as tuned on the guitar and stabilized enough to hold its pitch. We would still use that same formula but would be putting in the real diameter of that stabilized string as measured by micrometer, say.

The formula itself is an accurate calculation of the tension (as long as we use the proper stretched-and-stabilized-string diameter): if we somehow measure that real tension directly with some contraption, it would be the same as what we calculated with the formula.

So this is an interesting experiment - to figure out the real tension the guitar is under. I might just do that with the new Savarez set I am due to put on soon.

Anyone can do it as long as you have a micrometer of some kind to accurately measure string diameter.

I'll post about the formula in a day or two; I want to first figure out how the different formulations floating around are related to one another so I can explain it clearly.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2020 5:11:05
 
Richard Jernigan

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From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to kitarist

Some string makers visibly process the treble strings they buy from the plastic manufacturers. The Savarez "red cards" I have been using on my blancas for decades do not have the shiny surface of unprocessed nylon monofilament. They appear to have been very slightly abraded, giving them a cloudy surface. Savarez says they have been processed to ensure uniform diameter from end to end. The process makes them very slightly less slippery than unprocessed monofilament. In practice I don't notice the difference in slipperiness between the Savarez "red cards" and the D'Addario EJ-45s or EJ-46s I use on my classicass and the flamenca negra. I find the difference in tension between the EJ-45s and the EJ-46s quite noticeable, enough to slightly alter right hand technique. I "dig in" more on the lower tension strings.

D'Addario and maybe some others say their trebles are "laser gauged," again to insure end to end uniformity in diameter. This seems to be a quality control process, rather than an additional treatment of the extruded monofilament.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2020 0:40:42
 
Piwin

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RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to kitarist

Even if it evens out somewhat, does the on-guitar tension profile keep the same overall shape as the graph you posted for pre-guitar tension profile?

There was a Luciano video not long ago where he said that he used low tension on 1, 4, 5 and 6, and high tension on 2 and 3 to even out the tension profile. I suppose that makes sense provided the on-guitar tension profile also has a dip for the 2 and 3 strings, albeit less pronounced. I'd imagine there are some tradeoffs to doing that though.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2020 1:53:47
 
kitarist

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RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

Some string makers visibly process the treble strings they buy from the plastic manufacturers. The Savarez "red cards" I have been using on my blancas for decades do not have the shiny surface of unprocessed nylon monofilament. They appear to have been very slightly abraded, giving them a cloudy surface. Savarez says they have been processed to ensure uniform diameter from end to end. The process makes them very slightly less slippery than unprocessed monofilament.


These strings are an example of so-called 'rectified' strings. They are monofilament extruded nylon strings that are literally ground with a centerless grinder in order to ensure that they are perfectly circular in their cross-section (and maybe also having the same diameter along their length).
(I don't know for sure if it is the plastics producer or the string companies who elect to do that grinding; maybe more likely the string companies)

They exist because they were introduced at a time (1960s-1970s) when extruder technology was not refined enough - no calibrators, no gear pumps; also more limited selection of diameters. The chief problem was that the extruded nylon strings were frequently oval, rather than circular, in cross-section.

So rectified strings were introduced as a solution to that problem - they take the oval and make a perfect round string with a grinder. One pass with the grinder - you can get a perfectly round string. Second pass - you can make a smaller-diameter round string out of it, so the added benefit of offering rectified strings was the increase in availability of different diameters.

The one side effect was that the string's surface remains somewhat rougher than extruded nylon - which was an issue for a lot of gutiarists, but others preferred that different sensation. After extruders updated to a gear pump this has technically removed the need for rectified strings, and they are now just a preference option for those who like them.

Gear pump extruders produce round strings, but still have statistical variation in diameter of the same batch due to microscopic temperature differences (it makes for microscopic variations in viscosity of the melted nylon across the die so slightly thicker or thinner strands as this affects the individual strand flow speed).

But now one plastics producer has in addition a sophisticated calibrator of some sort to compensate for this - they are in Japan; the company is Toray, and their trebles are basically all of the same diameter in that bundle they come in.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

D'Addario and maybe some others say their trebles are "laser gauged," again to insure end to end uniformity in diameter. This seems to be a quality control process, rather than an additional treatment of the extruded monofilament.

RNJ


Yes, it is a quality control process at string companies - however since you can check just one string at a time, it is a sample testing procedure of some sort - say test 1-10 random strings per bundle, etc. But it is still mostly about the diameter variation across strings of the same batch rather than about diameter variation within the same string; the latter just seems to be consistent because the extruder process is designed to deliver that.

D'Addario buys all their Pro Arte nylon trebles from Toray (see above - the guys with the calibrator). Witness reports are that their (D'Addario's) own laser checker just sits unplugged in a side room - they don't need to use it anymore

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Konstantin
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2020 3:42:47
 
kitarist

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RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

Even if it evens out somewhat, does the on-guitar tension profile keep the same overall shape as the graph you posted for pre-guitar tension profile?


I think it is supposed to get pretty flat, maybe with a dip for g-treble. That's exactly what we can all try to find out by doing pretty simple measurements and knowing a few parameters.

You might ask why the string company doesn't just post the expected stretching amount (and thus reduction in diameter) - isn't it the same 'stretching ratio' for the same material (once we know what nylon (or non-nylon) it is and know the unstretched string diameter). Where 'stretching ratio' is defined as stabilized on-guitar string versus in-package string - either diameter change or length change.

There is a complication - nylon is stretched in the oven at the plastics plant then extruded, but the exact parameters of the process are proprietary and differ from manufacturer to manufacturer. These differences produce nylon with different 'stretching ratio' for a given diameter. (BTW this seems to imply that the real tension might be slightly different between two sets of trebles from the same nylon and same unstretched diameters, but different manufacturers (!)).

So we are back to actually doing the measurement of string diameters after pitch stabilization - we can get not only the real tension on-guitar, but also an estimate of the experimental stretching ratio for the nylon associated with the specific manufacturer.

Ideally, a lot of us can do this and we can start identifying, for a given string material, which strings are made by the same manufacturer. This is assuming a manufacturer does not vary their process parameters so we are assuming the stretching ratio is the same for a given nylon for a given manufacturer.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

There was a Luciano video not long ago where he said that he used low tension on 1, 4, 5 and 6, and high tension on 2 and 3 to even out the tension profile.


My first guess would be that he also was misled by the on-package tensions thinking they show the on-guitar stabilized tension, so in a way he might be over-compensating by making the real tension uneven in the other direction, resulting in an inverted real tension profile (inverted shape compared to the on-package one). Or maybe he knows all about this real vs. hypothetical tension, though if so, I am not sure I understand his described choice.

I'll try to find some papers that might show what the real tension profile is supposed to be, at least conceptually, and report here. I seem to vaguely remember seeing at least one paper where the authors had some graphs with time to pitch stabilization; hopefully other parameters that can give us something.

The best would be to just do measurements, as long as we do them accurately. We have to measure both the unstretched out-of-package and the stabilized on-guitar string diameters - not just the stabilized one - i.e. don't trust the package diameters given the Gaussian variability or the propensity for typos.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2020 6:05:30
 
JasonM

Posts: 1565
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to kitarist

From the Solera website:

Personally we are not so enthusiastic about high tensions, as it is more than proved that they make the guitar wear, by excessively moving the neck, subsequently sinking the top and finally “corrupting” the guitar. I results in a remarkable worsening of the guitar and its sound, and a drastic alteration of the beating, thus decreasing the degree of comfort for both hands.

More than proved? I recently heard Luciano say the same thing about high tension strings. But other than that I’ve never heard or experienced a problem.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 20 2020 19:59:48
 
dartemo1

Posts: 71
Joined: Apr. 21 2010
 

RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to kitarist

Interesting; just have measured Oasis GPX+ normal tension on my guitar, which have been there for about 3 months.
''' Measured Gauge (Stringsbymail)
1st 0.023 0.024
2nd 0.027 0.027
3rd 0.033 0.033

What is surprising, the ultimate tensile strength of nylon is ~12,000 psi. For a 0.024" string it is about 5.4 lbs. How come they are used at tension of 21 lbs?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 21 2020 2:04:23
 
machopicasso

 

Posts: 899
Joined: Nov. 27 2010
 

RE: Solera Flamenca Strings (in reply to JasonM

quote:

From the Solera website:

Personally we are not so enthusiastic about high tensions, as it is more than proved that they make the guitar wear, by excessively moving the neck, subsequently sinking the top and finally “corrupting” the guitar. I results in a remarkable worsening of the guitar and its sound, and a drastic alteration of the beating, thus decreasing the degree of comfort for both hands.

More than proved? I recently heard Luciano say the same thing about high tension strings. But other than that I’ve never heard or experienced a problem.


The luthier who repaired my Faulk guitar recommended against hard tension for that particular guitar simply because it's a lighter instrument. But, even in that case, he said I could still use hard tension strings so long as as I tuned down to ease the tension once I was done playing.

I'd be curious to know a lot more about the supposed evidence to which the Solera website refers. I've been using hard tension on my Sanchis Lopez for twelve years and haven't noticed a problem.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 21 2020 5:37:20
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