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devilhand

 

Posts: 715
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

The evolution of solo flamenco guitar 

Can someone please give us a short overview of how solo flamenco guitar playing has evolved?

Recently I've listened to a few earlier solo flamenco guitar recordings of guys like Nino Ricardo or Melchor de Marchena. I could listen to it for hours. It has a certain charm one can't resist.
On the other hand I can't enjoy Paco's solo flamenco and the modern solo flamenco guitar. Can we divide the history of solo flamenco guitar playing into 2 eras, namely pre-Paco and post-Paco era?
I mean PdL and what came after Paco would be post-Paco era.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2020 22:11:42
 
Richard Jernigan

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From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to devilhand

Put "old school" into the search box [don't includ the quotation marks] and you get this:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=320503&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=old%2Cschool&tmode=&smode=&s=#320732

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2020 3:38:53
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12353
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

Can someone please give us a short overview of how solo flamenco guitar playing has evolved?

Recently I've listened to a few earlier solo flamenco guitar recordings of guys like Nino Ricardo or Melchor de Marchena. I could listen to it for hours. It has a certain charm one can't resist.
On the other hand I can't enjoy Paco's solo flamenco and the modern solo flamenco guitar. Can we divide the history of solo flamenco guitar playing into 2 eras, namely pre-Paco and post-Paco era?
I mean PdL and what came after Paco would be post-Paco era.


The charm is a matter of taste. The thread linked gets at most of it. We can generalize by saying two eras are represented or divided by Ramon montoya and Paco de lucia only. Montoya recorded for cante at earliest times possible, and on the heels of segovia, offered the first solo guitar recordings on flamenco, 10 years after. While players did do solos before that, we look to the montoya collection as the fruition of the idea or concept. 1936. Paco de lucia performed Montoya’s Rondeña on his first EP in 1964. So we are talking at least 30 years of very little guitar solo evolution. We could get into specific contributions but you want quick and general. Also cante evolved during that time and it is important to include that in the story:

quote:

My response earlier was regarding specifically the evolution of flamenco GUITAR SOLO playing, sorry for not making that clear. It is important to consider, when you are ready for it, the way the cante and guitar have evolved as well, both TOGETHER. It is a much less obvious subject, but in this thread last year I pointed out some of my own personal discoveries of how things have evolved within the world of cante using specific examples.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=313974&appid=&p=&mpage=2&key=picaros&tmode=&smode=&s=#314283


Paco famously was told by sabicas to stop copying the maestros and develop his own material right at the time of the EP. He is the unique artist to upgrade and evolve all the guitar forms from that point forward with each successive recording project. Because the evolution is slow, and there are so many forms, I prefer to look at his body of work in twos or threes of successive advancement or change. If you can look past “not liking” Paco and simply analyze the progression, the evolution is crystal clear.

Fabulosa/Fantasia - unique ideas including counter rhythms that predecessors only flirted with. Still playing maestros pieces. 1967-9

Duende Flamenco/Fuente y caudal- solid original style with many upgraded techniques and music ideas. Most fans like this the best as it had enough traditional flavor mixed with innovation to be heard along side the old masters. 1972-3

Almoraima/Castro Marin/solo quiero caminar- here is the main area of evolutionary change. More counter rhythm, even the rasgueados shift to the off beat before and after, new chords and scales, improvised runs over looped chord patterns (jazz to many ears) and worst of all... the dreaded inclusion of non flamenco instruments. Electric bass percussion Arabic oud, flute etc. 1976-1980

Siroco/Zyryab- here the final result of the previous experiments comes to fruition and the guy has reached a plateau of technique and mature modern music style. Most of the pieces only use traditional flamenco accompaniment instruments like palmas, however, to the people that lost him by 1980, this is alien music. This material serves as the “after” or the foundation of the modern flamenco guitar era. Many great young players begin their musical journey here. 1987-1990

Luzia/Cositas buenas- although he had reached his artistic peak already, Paco was nonetheless inspired by the younger generation of artists and was driven to push the envelope a little bit further. Each form was re-examined with a modern lens and re vamped or upgraded from his previous models. Less in the technique department and more in the area of harmony and chromaticism... not unlike the western classical composers after they had exhausted all the sweet spots of their eras. It is important to note his live shows started to mix material from both this and the previous era seamlessly, to people that could recognize the material. While a lot of us felt he still had more to say after this, it was the material he died playing. 1998-2004.

Each of the above 5 stages of evolution is book marked by live albums that fill in the missing links. While certain colleagues of his like Manolo Sanlucar lived through the same changes of flamenco, and have personal artistic evolutions, none but Paco can so clearly demonstrate the specifics of how the music evolved since Ramon Montoya to present.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2020 16:26:23
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12353
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to Ricardo

Here is the quickest way to hear the evolution flamenco guitar, scan through these except plaza Alta listen to the end as it is the transition point in history imo:









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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2020 16:50:35
 
devilhand

 

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RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to Ricardo

Thanks for your input. Very informative and professional as always.
Almoraima (1976) marked the birth of the flamenco nuevo. G. Nunez is overdoing it in the last video. This would attract a very few people I guess.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2020 20:58:53
 
devilhand

 

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RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

Put "old school" into the search box [don't includ the quotation marks] and you get this:

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=320503&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=old%2Cschool&tmode=&smode=&s=#320732

RNJ

Thanks for the link. Looks like the history of solo flamenco guitar has 2 main eras - old school and flamenco nuevo.

The question is can we consider flamenco jazz as a subcategory of flamenco nuevo?
What is modern flamenco? A generic term for everything that came after old school?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2020 21:07:36
 
JasonM

Posts: 1497
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From: Baltimore

RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to devilhand

Great analysis and anthology of Solea evolution, Professor.

First flamenco album I got was Luzia back in 1999/2000 and I remember impressed by his technique, but absolutely confused about what was going on. It was sort of cool how Luzia slowly started to make sense over the years as I got more familiar with Paco
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2020 22:09:28
 
Piwin

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RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to JasonM

quote:

First flamenco album I got was Luzia


Same here!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2020 22:12:41
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12353
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

G. Nunez is overdoing it in the last video. This would attract a very few people I guess.


No worries, he also plays rumba!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2020 3:23:12
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3219
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Looks like the history of solo flamenco guitar has 2 main eras - old school and flamenco nuevo.


nope, all wrong, you need to look at the society and social conditions that create the art that reflects that reality, so there are 3 periods in the 20th century: pre-civil war flamenco, flamenco under Franco, and flamenco post-Franco.

well, I'm just kidding, sort of, but that is one way you could usefully look at it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2020 16:17:30
 
mark indigo

 

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From: UK

RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

old school and flamenco nuevo


i hate both those terms, they are too simplistic, and so many things don't really fit neatly into either box, or the categories are so wide with so many contradictory things in them that they are kinda meaningless.... except for things like commercial marketing, click-bait journalism, tribal faction-fighting and trolling....

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2020 16:37:01
 
Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

old school and flamenco nuevo


i hate both those terms, they are too simplistic, and so many things don't really fit neatly into either box, or the categories are so wide with so many contradictory things in them that they are kinda meaningless.... except for things like commercial marketing, click-bait journalism, tribal faction-fighting and trolling....


Yes just like in evolutionary biology, it’s not about a before and after progression...many species co exist just fine and can even mate. “Old school” intermingles with “modern” or “Nuevo” flamenco perfectly fine. Gerardo Nuñez and Indio Gitano album is a good example, but there are many others. Just because flamenco has evolved does not mean it is now “better” or “higher level” or something like that. Same with biology. People that claim to not understand modern flamenco or refuse to accept it as flamenco, calling it “jazz fusion” or “Jazzmenco”, are simply denying that the evolution has actually happened. If modern flamenco is in fact “jazz” now, then the modern tocaor would not be able to function as an accompanist of cante. The cante has also evolved since we first heard it recorded on wax cylinders. Sadly, unlike the guitar and dance, it might be going extinct. Many styles are already “fossils”. Since cante is the essence of flamenco, this will not be good in the future, and indeed, the label of “flamenco” might have to describe a “fossilized” form of music.

People are free to draw their taste lines anywhere they want. I happen to think many aficionados draw that line at the Almoraima album. Some aficionados still don’t even recognize a solo guitar piece as “flamenco” as it doesn’t have cante. Some people probably once felt that Chacon was too far removed from the tradition when he changed the Canarios Malagueña to a new “upgraded” version, or his Granainas. My personal line runs at certain players styles of composing and accompaniment of the Dani de Moron/Nueva escuela era. However I still recognize these trends as pure “flamenco” even if I don’t agree with the direction it is heading. More conservative young searchers such as Antonio Rey are more to my taste.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2020 20:51:10
 
JasonM

Posts: 1497
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to Ricardo

One possible classification

New Flamenco:
Dani de Moron, Rycardo Moreno

Old School:
Antonio Rey, Diego Morao, Yerai Cortes

Fossil Flamenco:
Paco Pena
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2020 22:54:50
 
rombsix

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From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to JasonM

quote:

Fossil Flamenco:
Paco Pena




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2020 1:22:34
 
mark indigo

 

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From: UK

RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to JasonM

quote:

Fossil Flamenco:
Paco Pena


Diego del Gastor?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2020 19:03:38
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3219
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

People are free to draw their taste lines anywhere they want.


true - taste is no issue for me, as the dicho goes: "el libro de sabor es blanco".

I think what bugs me is the tribalism, people draw a line somewhere and then glorify one side of the line and vilify the other, regardless of actual content.

I have no problem whatsoever if anyone prefers Caracol and Melchor to Camaron and Paco(DL)/Tomate, or vise-versa, but people will tend to categorise the former as "old-school" and the latter as "nuevo".

To my ear the studio recordings of Camaron and Paco and the live recordings of Camaron and Tomatito have more in common with recordings of Caracol and Melchor than they do with those of Barberia del Sur and Ketama. And to me the cancion recordings of Caracol are closer to those "nuevo" groups than to Camaron.

Plus most of the so-called "old school" guys never went to school, so it's all nonsense!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2020 20:01:17
 
Morante

 

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RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to JasonM

Que estúpida esta clasificacion.

Flamenco es cante. Manolo de Huelva could play for Camaron or even for Estrella Morante. PDL could play for Silverio. El cante is an arte sin fronteras. La guitarra is an instrumento sin fronteras. Cuando los dos se encuentan, sale el arte muy especial.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 6 2020 22:55:54
 
Echi

 

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RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to devilhand

Art is art, ok.
Many solo-albums of flamenco guitar players have no cante though: I love the last albums of Dani De Moron or Rycardo Moreno (for instance) but I’d say it’s a kind of fusion routed in flamenco more than flamenco.
I feel the same for Tierra of Vicente Amigo or the albums of Chicuelo or even Tomatito with Camilo. For me it’s ok really because I have been playing fusion for years before getting close to flamenco, but for I understand it’s not the cup of many flamenco lovers.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2020 10:22:02
 
devilhand

 

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RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

i hate both those terms, they are too simplistic, and so many things don't really fit neatly into either box, or the categories are so wide with so many contradictory things in them that they are kinda meaningless.... except for things like commercial marketing, click-bait journalism, tribal faction-fighting and trolling....

Simplicity is cool. People tend to analyze things too much making everything unnecessary complicated and even complex (yes there's a difference between complicated and complex).
But the outcome at the end is the same and even inferior comparing to the simplistic approach. I like both terms old school and flamenco nuevo.
Both captures the main essence and nuances of the 2 eras without complicating things.

Something can happen giving rise to a new genre/era etc. As for flamenco nuevo, it's a new music genre based on old school flamenco. One can play flamenco nuevo only after he/she mastered old school flamenco. So both terms fit nicely into the categorization of what was before and what came after.

quote:

many species co exist just fine and can even mate. “Old school” intermingles with “modern” or “Nuevo” flamenco perfectly fine.

Yes, no doubt about that. Flamenco nuevo doesn't deny the existence of old school flamenco. Because both are 2 different music genres even though one is based on the other. There's a continuum between these 2 terms meaning that one can find any mixture of both. One can add flamenco jazz to this mixture. Today all 3 (old school flamenco, flamenco jazz and flamenco nuevo) co-exist together.

Talking about flamenco jazz, I happen to know that flamenco jazz was developed first by jazz musicians. Probably the earliest interpret was a jazz saxophonist Pedro Iturralde who sadly passed away a few days ago. Someone should have mentioned it in Another RIP thread. Here's Solea recorded with young Paco in 1967. As you can see, flamenco jazz is older than flamenco nuevo.



quote:

No worries, he also plays rumba!

If you want rumba in flamenco you can call it flamenco pop. To me, rumba shouldn't be considered as a flamenco form.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2020 12:24:12
 
Morante

 

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RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to Echi

quote:


Many solo-albums of flamenco guitar players have no cante though:


I have been living in Andalucía for more than 20 años, attending every event of flamenco I could find. But I never heard any solo guitar recitals. Also, in the festivals, when there was baile, everybody went to the bar.

Seems that solo guitar is an interest of foreigners, los Andaluces no tienen interés ningún.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2020 16:27:39
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3219
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Simplicity is cool. People tend to analyze things too much making everything unnecessary complicated and even complex (yes there's a difference between complicated and complex).
But the outcome at the end is the same and even inferior comparing to the simplistic approach.


simple and simplistic are not the same thing (yes, there's a difference between simple and simplistic ).

Dividing flamenco into "old school" and "nuevo" requires a complicated analysis, because you have to draw a line between artists and eras which don't always have neat clearly defined styles.

Arbitrarily dividing into two meaningless categories is a lot more complicated than my more simple approach:- there is flamenco (cante, toque and baile), and there is other stuff that is not flamenco. Once you start dividing flamenco into different categories there is no end to it, and this is for flamencologists and people who want to make silly arguments. Ultimately nearly every artist and every decade becomes a genre and an era unto them/itself.

Then there is the simple fact that "old" and "new" are relative. What was "new" in one era becomes "old" in another. Chacon and Ramon Montoya were cutting edge in their day, Camaron and Paco are now considered "old" in Spain.

"Nuevo Flamenco" is a marketing term invented in the 80's to sell pop-flamenco-fusion (or, more accurately just pop music made by gitanos from flamenco families) like Barberia del Sur and Ketama.

quote:

If you want rumba in flamenco you can call it flamenco pop. To me, rumba shouldn't be considered as a flamenco form.


really?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 7 2020 17:25:48
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12353
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Here's Solea recorded with young Paco in 1967. As you can see, flamenco jazz is older than flamenco nuevo.


Ever heard of miles Davis? Same year (10 years before your recording link) as sketches of Spain, “From Saint Louis to Seville” was released. Carlos Montoya with drums and bass.


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 8 2020 15:04:46
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 715
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

simple and simplistic are not the same thing (yes, there's a difference between simple and simplistic ).

Dividing flamenco into "old school" and "nuevo" requires a complicated analysis, because you have to draw a line between artists and eras which don't always have neat clearly defined styles.

Arbitrarily dividing into two meaningless categories is a lot more complicated than my more simple approach:- there is flamenco (cante, toque and baile), and there is other stuff that is not flamenco. Once you start dividing flamenco into different categories there is no end to it, and this is for flamencologists and people who want to make silly arguments. Ultimately nearly every artist and every decade becomes a genre and an era unto them/itself.

Then there is the simple fact that "old" and "new" are relative. What was "new" in one era becomes "old" in another. Chacon and Ramon Montoya were cutting edge in their day, Camaron and Paco are now considered "old" in Spain.

"Nuevo Flamenco" is a marketing term invented in the 80's to sell pop-flamenco-fusion (or, more accurately just pop music made by gitanos from flamenco families) like Barberia del Sur and Ketama.

If you have trouble with old school and nuevo, go for traditional and modern flamenco.

As for rumba it can't be flamenco because right hand technique for rumba is different than right hand technique for flamenco.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2020 19:35:27
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12353
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

As for rumba it can't be flamenco because right hand technique for rumba is different than right hand technique for flamenco.


The reason is the Cantes. Rumba yes has traditional letras and the rhythm falls in with family tientos tangos. Baile also uses the rhythm in Tarantos and tientos escobillas and build up steps and transitions/llamadas etc. Finally Garrotin and colombianas cantes require that rhythm for proper accompaniment.

If you think you can avoid studying it, or substitute with only tangos compas patterns, you will end up with missing pieces of the flamenco puzzle. Of course if you want to skip learning Entre dos Aguas or Bamboleo you will be just fine. But “A Tu Vera” and many others are essential.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2020 20:17:09
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3219
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: The evolution of solo flamenco g... (in reply to devilhand

quote:

If you have trouble with old school and nuevo, go for traditional and modern flamenco.


same binary either/or dichotomy.

define "traditional" and "modern" - the same issues apply.

go listen to Manolo Sanlucars "Mundo Y Formas de la Guitarra Flamenca" and Paco de Lucías "Duende Flamenco" and "Fuente Y Caudal" and then tell me if they are "traditional" or "modern"....

In terms of solo flamenco guitar what happens is what Ricardo was saying that people cut off at a certain point as to what was acceptable in terms of "tradition", but it varies from person to person! For some it is "Entre Dos Aguas", which is on "Fuente Y Caudal" album, but is the rest of the album "traditional" or "modern"? for others it's later, as Ricardo points out "Almoraíma" or for others it's not until "Solo Quiero Caminar" (even his dad apparently with this one! ).

And again, all those albums were cutting edge when they came out but are all now "old"!

quote:

As for rumba it can't be flamenco because right hand technique for rumba is different than right hand technique for flamenco.

Ever heard of "Tangos arrumbao"?

EDIT: just to add, Rumba has an existence both inside and outside flamenco. There are groups that play Rumba but no other flamenco, but most flamencos also play Rumba. You can think of it like a Venn diagram, where there is a circle for Rumba and a circle for Flamenco, and a segment where the two circles overlap. There is a lot more to flamenco than rumba (rumba is only a very small part of flamenco), and there is a whole world of rumba outside of flamenco, but there is also flamenco rumba.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2020 20:22:06
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