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RE: Building two under influence of a 1973 Sobrinos de Esteso   You are logged in as Guest
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Schieper

 

Posts: 184
Joined: Mar. 29 2017
From: The Netherlands

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

Lumpy has nice wood ;-)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 1 2020 13:28:19
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Schieper

Millions of years ago an asteroid smacked into our planet, and it was large enough to disrupt life on the Earth. Just a few years before this realignment of evolutionary development changed our planet from then forth, the Spanish heel style neck to top join was thought up by the first guitar makers. They lived with the dinosaurs and right after the impact of the asteroid that decimated terrestrial life, the first guitar makers were driven into the sea. They lived on giant clams and sea vegetables while they quickly evolved gills and became two legged fish that paced the abyssal plain whilst the dinosaurs perished.

Millions of years past and the two legged fish made guitar after guitar with the Spanish heel as the Jurassic Iberians did. The two legged fish guitar builders evolved lungs and lived half the year as eels in mud flats in equatorial lakes. Eventually they climbed with leathery fins into valleys and dry steam beds in the kingdom of the Almovarids and made fish lutes and learned to weave sheep hair sweaters. They carried the Spanish heel design out of the ancient oceans and into the arid lands of the Mesta.

And this is the true story with no embellishments of how the Spanish heel design was preserved for hundreds of millennia.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2020 15:20:37
 
JasonM

Posts: 1695
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

Now we are living in the age of bolt on barbarians
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2020 16:49:31
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to JasonM

Bolting on necks seems legit, and using a spline with mortise and tenon of some type is even more up to date. But the Jurassic neck to top join is a living fossil!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2020 23:44:21
 
estebanana

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RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

Coelacanth



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 7 2020 23:48:25
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Schieper

Moving on from living fossils..

The next four photos might be interesting for some folks-

If I'm working with the traditional glue block system building top down on a solera, ( which I don't always do, but for flamenco guitars so far always) I often fit the glue blocks to the ribs and top.

The glue blocks get fit to the arch of the top, usually in the lower bout rim, the upper bout tends to have a more flat top, at least the way I do it.

In the photos you see a chunky rib lamination form, I don't laminate ribs very often, but once in a while it's necessary. Flamenco get thin solid ribs. The for, is useful for a second duty of providing a sanding form for fitting the glue bock to the inside of the rib. Sanding the glue block on a swatch of abrasive paper makes the block block fit the inside curve of the ribs.

Probably not essential work, but I'm a bit lax about making the glue blocks and cut them off somewhat wide. If I didn't fir them this way there would be a gap behind them. Since this wood is Ziricote I want every gluing advantage to ensure the fit is tight. I don;t think yu have to prepare these glassier closed surface haprdwoods by wiping them with solvent to remove oil or any of that stuff, but I do think the fit the blocks needs to be snug. Perhaps with glue blocks that are narrow the radius of the curve doesn't effect the fit against the ribs so much, but the wide blocks I use probably need it.













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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2020 1:39:16
 
estebanana

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RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Schieper

.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Oct. 19 2020 1:43:23
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Schieper

I set up a new dry room for RH control.
It’s not big, but for bracing tops and backs I think it’s important to go a bit lower RH, about 40- 42 %

I mounted the go bar thing on the wall so the room would not have big tables or extra wood. The more wood in the room the longer it takes to get the RH dialed in to exactly where you want.

I use a form to press the back strip reinforcement into, but it has an arch I shaped, not a spherical arch. I’m against that look on flamenco guitars, I want the arc to rise from a flat plane around the rim. Anything else on a flamenco guitar looks janky. I used to admire Lester DeVoe’s work a lot, but I became disinterested when I saw he began using a spherical back. It was disappointing to see.

My own aesthetic judgement, he’s still a fine maker, but if you think lacquer finishes and spherical backs are alright on a Spanish instrument....





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 1 2020 4:32:05
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Schieper

I use a piece of an old knife blade to do a fine scrape of rosewood, or in this case Ziricote.
If you make savings the scraper is sharp, if you make dust it’s dull.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 1 2020 4:35:07
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Schieper

My first guitar making teacher Gene Clark said to me a wood finish can be many materials, but the first one is a polished finish. He took a cotton rag and rubbed it into a back brace that had been sanded. The cloth burnished the wood to a glossy finish, as if it were varnished. Cloth is a mild abrasive tool, and burnishing is a beautiful finish to leave on interior parts of the guitar.

Gene was also a bit of a right wing nut who listened to bad AM radio talk shows about how dumb “libtards” are. But he wasn’t malicious because he was a poet with guitar making. I wouldn’t have put up with it unless he was the teacher I was lucky to have for that time. He clarified many things about the guitar in a sea of old wives tales and myths about how guitars are really made.

He was nutty however, once he went on a rant about the chance of a civil war that would be inevitable if leftists took over the streets. He said he’d be forced to shoot all his commie leftist Berkeley friends in that situation. I just looked at him and shook my head in disbelief. I said let me take you to lunch, I think you need a coffee and a plate of pancakes. Then he says ok and started babbling about the Federalist Papers. He was a lovely gentle curmudgeon.







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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2020 11:51:49
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2252
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

He was nutty however, once he went on a rant about the chance of a civil war that would be inevitable if leftists took over the streets


Let's hope not but he and I were pretty much in agreement about world conditions and the potential for things to get out of hand if people don't learn how to love each other.

I love everybody and according to his sensitivities, he did too. I miss his telephone talks over the years. Fine fellow indeed.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 2 2020 14:55:28
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1488
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

This looks fishy to me. I've never had a problem using glue blocks that are not fitted to the sides. Oh, maybe it was another photo that looked fishy.

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Ethan Deutsch
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www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
www.youtube.com/marioamayaflamenco
I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2020 0:16:42
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to constructordeguitarras

If I made my glue blocks narrower I guess they wouldn’t need fitting. But I make them about half an inch wide and they need to be fit, which also serves as a focus for my neurotic need to make things nest in each other.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2020 3:58:18
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

This is my new label, maybe hasn’t been seen here. I think I got it in late 2018





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2020 10:03:32
 
Ricardo

Posts: 12992
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

My 7 year old glanced over my shoulder while I was drooling over these pics

“What IS that?” After I told him it was a guitar in pieces or stages of construction, he said “oh, why is he going through all that trouble can’t he just buy one at the store?”



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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2020 19:16:58
 
ernandez R

Posts: 485
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Ricardo

Ricardo,
Sounds like it’s almost time for a father son wood working project. Guessing there must be a guitar “kit” that is fairly simplified one could assemble in the kitchen? Who knows, yours could be the next generation of flamenco luthiers?

HR

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I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2020 22:29:22
 
ernandez R

Posts: 485
Joined: Mar. 25 2019
From: Alaska USA

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

Perhaps a waist less wasp like?

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

If I made my glue blocks narrower I guess they wouldn’t need fitting. But I make them about half an inch wide and they need to be fit, which also serves as a focus for my neurotic need to make things nest in each other.


_____________________________

I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy,
doesn't have to be fast,
should have some meat on the bones,
can be raw or well done,
as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.

www.instagram.com/threeriversguitars
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2020 22:31:22
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Ricardo

Obviously your wife is taking him shopping and indulging him in late capitalist rituals.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 3 2020 23:52:09
 
JasonM

Posts: 1695
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

This is my new label, maybe hasn’t been seen here. I think I got it in late 2018


Oh my word, use of Color!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 4 2020 13:54:54
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to JasonM

I have another version with a green border. I wish the upper name font was the same as the yellow line ‘constructor ...’ but I was too polite about telling the designer and approved it too quickly. Otherwise I’m happy.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 5 2020 0:05:42
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

I'm going up upload some photos of spectrum plotting for main air resonance and main top resonance data that I took from these guitars with body assembled.

I may just upload the images and talk about them later because I have a short window of bandwidth today.

Feel free to comment!

The way these plots are generated is by tapping ten or twelve times on the top with a finger about 10” in front of a mic. The sound is fed into a spectrum plotter program, here I’m using Spectrum Analyzer.

The main air resonance is taken by tapping with the sound hole open holding the guitar by the nut area. The other is done by gripping the transverse brace at the sound hole with thumb and forefinger while holding my hand in the sound hole to close it, without touching much of the edge. It allows the top to vibrate with a closed air port and shows the main top resonance mode.

The plot below shows the main top resonance at F#2 the second fret of the bass E string. This is pretty good. More later




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2020 4:18:28
 
estebanana

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RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

text





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2020 4:19:52
 
estebanana

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RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Schieper

text



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2020 4:22:44
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Schieper

DANGER WILL ROBINSON!





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2020 4:24:04
 
JasonM

Posts: 1695
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

Ahh ok, so you go by the first peak of the mountain as the note (Fsharp2). The higher decible peak afterwards (E3) are harmonics then?

And are you tapping on the bridge tie block?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2020 15:27:47
 
eccullen

 

Posts: 90
Joined: Aug. 14 2007
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to JasonM

Have you done, or did you do this testing with a '73 Sobrinos ?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 10 2020 17:17:38
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to eccullen

Unfortunately I don’t have the original guitar in possession right now, that information would be great to have. This data comes from what I’m building now. One of the guitars I’m keeping for myself, the upcoming Blanca I have not updated yet, so when I return to California to visit someday I’ll bring it and compare.

Right now I’m pushing the Negra of Ziricote because it’s a commission. I’ll get back on the Blanca later in December.


The plots show first peak and secondary peaks- generally the first peak is the main air resonance or the main top res. Those remain below A2 generally for full size guitars. The secondary peaks are usually indicative of the back modes, which are more complex and higher in the 3 register like E3 G3 etc. interesting the high stuff doesn’t add a lot of color, it’s the D String G String resonance expressed by the back that move colors around. Or that’s my best working idea at this time with info from various sources.

This stuff interests me to a degree, but it’s not religion. I’m more curious about an accurate look at the main top resonance than anything. I’m not in favor of stupid ideas like giving this information to dealers as a part of marketing the guitar. The information is useful in some ways to builders, but guitar buys who predicate which guitars they will look at based on this information are pure idiots.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2020 2:14:51
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2252
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

I’m not in favor of stupid ideas like giving this information to dealers as a part of marketing the guitar. The information is useful in some ways to builders, but guitar buys who predicate which guitars they will look at based on this information are pure idiots.


Stephen,

I agree with you, in part, but in the long run, since I have been mentioning fine tuning, a lot of recognized master builders have been claiming fine tuning for their guitars in some sort of fashion after the fact.

Whether it does any good for the market place, is another story, but I have a feeling that this method of advertisement has started something that has grown over the years to be prominent for the field of techniques to sell guitars. Violins have to be fine tuned........so do guitars.

Whether this is just a guitar builder's priority of conversation or held to a wider market for players, remains to be discussed.

Personally, I have had a lot of feed back from customers who bought my guitars for that particular advertising, which got their attention.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2020 17:31:24
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3127
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

Estebanana:

quote:

I’m not in favor of stupid ideas like giving this information to dealers as a part of marketing the guitar. The information is useful in some ways to builders, but guitar buys who predicate which guitars they will look at based on this information are pure idiots.


Stephen,

I agree with you, in part, but in the long run, since I have been mentioning fine tuning, a lot of recognized master builders have been claiming fine tuning for their guitars in some sort of fashion after the fact.

Whether it does any good for the market place, is another story, but I have a feeling that this method of advertisement has started something that has grown over the years to be prominent for the field of techniques to sell guitars. Violins have to be fine tuned........so do guitars.

Whether this is just a guitar builder's priority of conversation or held to a wider market for players, remains to be discussed.

Personally, I have had a lot of feed back from customers who bought my guitars for that particular advertising, which got their attention.


I have bought two guitars from Tom because of the way they sound and feel. He didn't tell me what he did to them, except to say the second one took him a long time to be more or less satisfied with it. He said he wasn't completely sure about that until he compared it with a couple of other guitars, and decided it was ready to go out into the world. Both have improved since I bought them.

I don't really care what he did to them. Out of curiosity I have measured the spectra of at least one of my other guitars. I don't remember which one.

With the world's most complicated and sophisticated radars you can look at a waveform on an oscillosope, or the printout of a test and calibration app and decide conclusively whether the radar, or at least one of its major subsystems, is working right.

With a guitar you not only have to listen to it, you have to play it. Not just once but several times, and for a reasonable length of time at each sitting. After that, a guitar that you really like may not interest a different person who is as good or better player.

On playing Tom's guitars for a few minutes and hearing him produce some sounds on them, I found them interesting enough to buy. I have quite enjoyed playing each of them for a few hundred hours. I doubt that I will sell either one.

I also doubt they will be the last guitars I will buy.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 11 2020 21:16:22
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Building two under influence of ... (in reply to Schieper

I posted these to make a similar point to Richard's, the exact indicator of whether a guitar is bad good or great isn't about what resonant frequencies the top modes or main air modes hit. I posted them because I'm looking at each guitar I make and taking the information from now on because it's interesting.

It's also served to clarify a few things I already knew that I was taught by folks who don't work this way and have been making instruments for a long time. Some long held truths have been confirmed, and other myths have been show to be not so true. I'll get into it slowly.

First I wanted to point out the Danger Sign! on one chart. It's the Lumpy guitar's main air resonance, it made by tapping with the soundhole open in front of the mic. It's up at A2, normally that's a bit high for my comfort and I've built a few guitars with that high main air, but it's a bit scary to me because they can be finicky or noisy with overtone activity. But not to despair because lots of god makers have made guitars in that range. I have heard that several of the Bouchet guitars with the transverse bar near the bridge can be really high.

So I'm going to leave it as is. Its got a fairly thin spruce top and seven parabolic shaped fans that are may 6 mm tall. That bracing pattern was copied from a Hauser II- we'll see what happens, I'm only making that guitar to be for a family to use.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Nov. 13 2020 4:38:22
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