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RE: Tip joint in arpeggio   You are logged in as Guest
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hamia

 

Posts: 372
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

Look at videos of Paco playing - they are pretty clear.


Pretty clear to me too...but the opposite of what you imply. Stroke for both apoyando and tirando is driven by large knuckle. A trigger pull from middle knuckle is quite different. For tirando I would call it “scratching” instead of “clawing”. For apoyando the trigger pull would also be a type of scratching with flexible tip joints, vs (what apoyando actually should be) tapping, or typing, or driving the string downward.

But, it seems we’ve had this discussion before, no?


The middle knuckle method could be seen as a ''scratching'' movement. Essentially it is this: the large knuckle works to lift the fingers up for placement/string crossing, the large knuckle also provides some power to the stroke, but the main power is a very rapid sideways snap/pull delivered by the middle knuckle. People get confused about the power: there is no significant power actually created by the knuckles (either large or middle) it is mostly delivered by tendons from the forearm muscles. The thing about the middle knuckle technique though is that it is not something you can try out for a few weeks and come to any assessment on its effectiveness. It is not really a natural method (in the sense that most people will naturally play from the large knuckle) and requires months, probably years, to develop to any useful degree.

And you're right we have discussed this in the past. But it's my favourite topic so I am always happy to add my 2 cents worth...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2020 12:03:43
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11950
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to hamia

Well, you probably saw it, anyway I’ll leave it here again:



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2020 17:51:55
 
kitarist

Posts: 900
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to hamia

quote:

but the main power is a very rapid sideways snap/pull delivered by the middle knuckle.


Not really. Remember that during that apparent middle joint flexion, the string is ALSO being pressed into the guitar the whole time (so that , when released, it will deliver a proper full and loud tone). That force pushing the string into the guitar comes from the flexion of the knuckle (MCP) joint and is the crucial contribution to a full, loud sound from the stroke.

Conversely, consider this: If you try to do flexion from the middle (PIP) joint while keeping the knuckle (MCP) joint fixed at some angle, all you are doing is adding counter-tension by activating the extensor to work against the flexor superficialis just enough to APPEAR to keep the MCP joint immobile - but actually the result of balancing of two opposing forces at the knuckle joint. The flexor still works on the middle joint, so you see flexion of the middle joint only.

Try this to convince yourself, say with the right-hand index finger, WHILE gently touching the top (dorsal side) of the finger with the palm side of you left-hand index finger - just rest it lightly on top of your RH index finger, just touching. Now do a sudden flexion only from the middle joint of RH finger - you will feel a slight push/movement into the underside of your LH index finger - because the extensor muscle got activated and for a brief moment the forces at the knuckle joint were not quite perfectly counter-balanced so the RH finger extended just slightly from its knuckle joint.

So, moving mostly or only from the middle joint is ADDING more forces - more tension - to only make it appear so. A static balance of opposing forces - if unproductive tension - eventually leads to issues down the line.

In general, it is not possible to infer unambiguously the muscles and forces at work from just looking at apparent movement.

Here is a nice drawing showing the anatomy and mechanics of a finger :



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2020 19:17:59
 
hamia

 

Posts: 372
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to kitarist

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

but the main power is a very rapid sideways snap/pull delivered by the middle knuckle.


Not really. Remember that during that apparent middle joint flexion, the string is ALSO being pressed into the guitar the whole time (so that , when released, it will deliver a prope


Remember! Ha ha, dude I do understand what I am talking about (I spent 6 years at university studying physics for whatever that's worth) - you might have misunderstood my meaning which is another matter .
I started off playing from the large knuckle so I know how that is done, and then I switched over to the middle knuckle method (just for sh*ts and giggles really) and I could barely make any progress for a few years. It is not easy to do.

I keep hearing about pushing the string down into the sound board to get a strong tone. Yes, I understand the physics here. You want the sound wave to be created by the top vibrating and therefore want the string to transfer energy in the direction which makes the bridge/top vibrate to/away from the back of the guitar. But have you done any tests? I can barely hear any difference between pushing the string down and pulling it to the side. There probably is a difference but to my ears it's not very noticeable. Which is pretty clear evidence that a sideways pull is effective at making the top vibrate. And anyway loudness is not the key thing. I don't believe Paco has a particularly loud picado. I also suspect that his staccato effect could be a result of the sideways pull - the sideways vibration of the string helping to reduce the time for finger contact with the string.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2020 22:36:07
 
kitarist

Posts: 900
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to hamia

quote:

ORIGINAL: hamia

quote:

ORIGINAL: kitarist

quote:

but the main power is a very rapid sideways snap/pull delivered by the middle knuckle.


Not really. Remember that during that apparent middle joint flexion, the string is ALSO being pressed into the guitar the whole time (so that , when released, it will deliver a prope


Remember! Ha ha, dude I do understand what I am talking about (I spent 6 years at university studying physics for whatever that's worth) - you might have misunderstood my meaning which is another matter .


Let's recap - you said Paco's videos are pretty clear - that he plays with the 'middle knuckle method' as you call it in which according to you "the main power is a very rapid sideways snap/pull delivered by the middle knuckle".

My objection was that since the string is also being displaced into the guitar during that apparent middle joint flexion - the force for which cannot come through the middle joint but through the knuckle joint - what you claimed cannot be correct.

From the rest of your reply, it seems you think there is no displacement in the into-guitar direction with the 'middle-joint method', and by implication, you think Paco is not displacing into the guitar either. (or else how can you dismiss my argument? Or are you agreeing with me just presenting a hypothetical different scenario which is unrelated to Paco's videos you commented on? And are you agreeing with the mechanics of middle-joint-only movement I described - that it just adds counter forces and thus more tension? Did you do the index finger experiment?)

Well, he (Paco) definitely is, it is an observable fact. Also, it is a settled science that you need to do that in order to produce a good tone and volume. I don't know how you are not hearing a difference, but it is night and day. For a visual confirmation - if you do your experiment again, look along the plane of the strings from 6 to 1 while doing it - the string dips into the guitar (so it deviates from that plane of view) while you push it sideways even with the 'middle joint method'.

One possible source of confusion, sometimes, is that some students think 'pushing into the guitar' means doing ONLY that - without any horizontal displacement of the string at all - and alternatively, that having some horizontal displacement means one is not pushing into the guitar properly or at all. But there is always a contribution from both, with rest stroke typically having a larger into-guitar displacement component than free stroke does.

Lastly, what does it matter if you had 6 years of physics - whether I knew that or not would not have changed what I wrote as a counter-argument (I meant to say 'recall that..'; not 'remember' - that's my ESL). I am still unclear if you agreed with me or not but it seemed like you didn't, hence the recap above to pin down on what and where.

However, in case you do indeed think that there is no into-guitar component in Paco's stroke, despite observations, then we don't really have anything in common enough to discuss this further, though.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 3 2020 23:45:00
 
Piwin

Posts: 2795
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RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to kitarist

You're all doing it wrong. This is the proper way:



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 4 2020 0:21:56
 
rombsix

Posts: 7199
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Piwin

quote:

You're all doing it wrong. This is the proper way:




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Ramzi

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 4 2020 17:15:30
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11950
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to kitarist

quote:

However, in case you do indeed think that there is no into-guitar component in Paco's stroke, despite observations, then we don't really have anything in common enough to discuss this further, though.


This sums it up. I show in my video how it would look From the side to trigger pull from PIP, and what that feels like. While the sound is not much different, the feeling certainly is. The visuals from other angles than the side are indistinguishable. Nobody can do that trigger pull to equivalent speed as MCP big knuckle drive. You can’t trigger pull without curling tip joint (as in tirando) so tip joint has to always collapse for any rest stroke. The simple fact PDL sometimes has stiff tip joints during PICADO proves he is pushing down from MCP. At best hamia could try to argue that each collapsed tip stroke was a PIP pull and the others are MCP push downs. Of course coordinating such a complex variation at such speeds would be ridiculous, but since I could do that slow myself, I could admit it as a remote possibility.

This old argument stems from the Graff Martinez method, where he insisted the same. To be fair, the concept of trigger pull PIP apoyando even goes back to Aaron Shear classical guitar method, where after viewing a PDL video the first time, the optical illusion of it prompted me to try it myself. So while it’s a legitimate technique in theory, none of the guys I have seen are actually using it. Graff Martinz retracted his idea himself after many years of argument and carful study of the subject. Hamia will continue to cling to the concept despite evidence to the contrary. This is understandable since he has invested so much time into it. If he has indeed achieve desired results with it, I would not tell him to stop what he is doing. If he has a speed barrier, that’s a different story. In all honesty I doubt he is actually doing the PIP trigger pull I demonstrate, even if he thinks he is.

Probably the most involved discussion we have had was this one:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=301923&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=hamia

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 4 2020 18:34:19
 
hamia

 

Posts: 372
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Hamia will continue to cling to the concept despite evidence to the contrary. This is understandable since he has invested so much time into it. If he has indeed achieve desired results with it, I would not tell him to stop what he is doing. If he has a speed barrier, that’s a different story. In all honesty I doubt he is actually doing the PIP trigger pull I demonstrate, even if he thinks he is.

Probably the most involved discussion we have had was this one:
http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=301923&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=hamia


Well, currently I am locked down in Kuwait but by early next year I will have quit my job and will be in retirement in China (unless you count day trading as a job). I have a fantastic Green blanca and Canin negra waiting for me there (hopefully surviving the 15% humidity) and should have some time to get some practice in and post a few videos to epater la bourgeisie. Stay tuned ...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 6 2020 19:41:40
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 559
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to ernandez R

quote:

I don't have the Scott video ... Must add this what's so valuable about the Foro, gaining these little insites and then picking up the guitar and working through them, and every once in a while having that AhHa! moment that pushes one forward.

ernandez R,

Scott Tennant video is good. But Effortless Classical Guitar of W. Kanengiser is better. I think a combination of both is the best.

I had many Aha moments by watching Effortless Classical Guitar. I've watched many instructional videos so far. But Effortless Classical Guitar is the best. Everything that is shown there can be used in flamenco. Even rasgueado section is flamenco. Mr. Kanengiser was a student of Pepe Romero. One can call it Effortless Classical Guitar of Pepe Romero.

S. Tennant video has a nail shape section. W. Kanengiser video does not. But this video of W. Kanengiser is the best when it comes to nail shape. Thank you Mr. Kanengiser.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2020 10:56:04
 
kitarist

Posts: 900
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Piwin

quote:

This lockdown is playing nasty tricks on me. I'm starting to see lewd innuendos in a discussion about tip joints in arpeggio... Don't mind me. I'll go take a cold shower now.


Apparently it is not just you. Here's a video of a tennis official announcing new covid19 rules with everyone snickering:

"You can kick their balls, but you can't touch them" etc.


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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2020 17:27:14
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11950
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to devilhand

At 10:20, at least kanengiser says “if I want a brighter tone I can hook it”, unlike Tennant who said it was pretty ugly sound. That’s all my point was earlier, that brighter ripping tone is prefered for Flamenco.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2020 17:39:19
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 559
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

At 10:20, at least kanengiser says “if I want a brighter tone I can hook it”, unlike Tennant who said it was pretty ugly sound. That’s all my point was earlier, that brighter ripping tone is prefered for Flamenco.

I think from 7:16 onwards del Monte is talking about your brighter vs warmer sound arpeggio. But he didn't mention that brighter sounding arpeggio is flamenco. I think he should have said that.

What I noticed is to play that brighter sounding arpeggio he slightly changes his hand position. His hand position gets more perpendicular so that he can strike the strings almost at a 90 degree angle. Could you comment on that?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 22 2020 20:57:07
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 559
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to devilhand

After watching Mr. Kanengiser nail shape video again I came to the following conclusion. Most of the flamenco guitar players have a non-diagonal and vertical right hand position and pluck the strings at a 90 degree angle because they want a louder and brighter sound. Using nail as a ramp demonstrated in S. Tennant video at 8:45 picture #3 plays a less important role in this case. A rounder nail shape is also ok for flamencos at 7:20 picture #1. Can anyone confirm this?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 24 2020 22:35:13
 
hamia

 

Posts: 372
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to hamia

I think nail shape is not something that needs to be worried about. Those who try to make the flamenco guitar sound like classical are going in the wrong direction I think. Paco's tone is mostly fairly thin - and this in fact is excellent for flamenco. A case of less being more. The key thing is to have very strong right hand fingers that can power through the string, nails are almost irrelevant - although they need to be short to prevent them catching too much on the string.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 25 2020 11:49:01
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11950
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to hamia

quote:

I think nail shape is not something that needs to be worried about.


Totally wrong, all the maestros are concerned about it. When an advanced player records with careless filed round nail shape, it’s obvious by the tone. Muscling through bad nail shape is not fun, I used to do that.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 25 2020 19:30:55
 
hamia

 

Posts: 372
Joined: Jun. 25 2004
 

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

I think nail shape is not something that needs to be worried about.


Totally wrong, all the maestros are concerned about it. When an advanced player records with careless filed round nail shape, it’s obvious by the tone. Muscling through bad nail shape is not fun, I used to do that.


The most important thing is to get a good plucking technique that is not dependent on nail shape. A good test of this is to play strong fast picado and arpeggio without any nails at all. When you can do that then you can start to worry about nail length/shape.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 25 2020 22:38:00
 
JasonM

Posts: 1338
Joined: Dec. 8 2005
From: Baltimore

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to hamia

I remember this video as good player, good guitar, and bad nail day. Lord knows I have bad nail days (everyday). Maybe I will cut them off and play without nails until I know how to play right as hamia says!

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 26 2020 2:52:04
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11950
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to hamia

quote:

The most important thing is to get a good plucking technique that is not dependent on nail shape. A good test of this is to play strong fast picado and arpeggio without any nails at all. When you can do that then you can start to worry about nail length/shape.


You sound like Z6 (search his posts) before he understood how to file. Rather than fight against it, just do what Scott/kanengiser demonstrates and enjoy the results as majority of pros and amateurs already understand. Arguing against it only proves you are not doing it. It’s like people that argue against working with a metronome, and wonder why they can’t groove with certain players. There is tried and tested logic, don’t fight it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 26 2020 20:08:51
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 559
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to devilhand

quote:

After watching Mr. Kanengiser nail shape video again I came to the following conclusion. Most of the flamenco guitar players have a non-diagonal and vertical right hand position and pluck the strings at a 90 degree angle because they want a louder and brighter sound. Using nail as a ramp demonstrated in S. Tennant video at 8:45 picture #3 plays a less important role in this case. A rounder nail shape is also ok for flamencos at 7:20 picture #1. Can anyone confirm this?

Looks like no one wants to confirm it or everyone here is not sure about it. Again I have a clear answer now. I think del Monte got the idea from another Kanengiser video (Classical Guitar Mastery).

As a flamenco guitar player one doesn't need a long ramp as shown in picture #3 in S. Tennant video. This nail shape works better if one strikes the string in a diagonal way. Flamenco guitarist's nail should be more round and have a shorter ramp because of the vertical right hand position. That's why picture #1 in S. Tennant video is not a problem. Maybe even more suitable for flamenco.

I guess what hamia wrote is not untrue. As a flamenco guitarist we're less concerned about nail shape than classical guitar players. Grow your nail naturally and have a nice round nail shape. Not too long and not too short, then everything will be fine. A no-go is Λ nail shape in any case.
But personally I would prefer a nail shape that looks like a mix between picture #1 and #3. My right hand position would be somewhere between diagonal and vertical. Somehow it's strange that flamenco guitar playing is kinda hybrid in every way. Recall the discussion about modal and tonal stuff.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2020 10:51:22
 
Piwin

Posts: 2795
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to devilhand

Don't really know what you're asking to be honest. Nail filing depends a lot on the individual. I play with the wrist fairly high above the board and the hand fairly perpendicular to the strings (think Javier Conde more or less). Even with the hand "perpendicular", I do ramp my nails, and the ramp on my A finger is in the opposite direction as the ramps on M and I. To not do it means that I'll either get a rather "weak" sound or I'll have to really force my finger through the string, none of which are appealing. Just experiment with various positions and nail shapes and you'll eventually find what works best for you.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2020 11:27:26
 
gerundino63

Posts: 1525
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: The Netherlands

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to devilhand

Maybe you can search a bit on nails or nail shape on the foro.........a lot of ancient wisdom is all there for your questions.....maybe all your questions.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2020 11:32:01
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2992
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Can anyone confirm this?


quote:

Looks like no one wants to confirm it or everyone here is not sure about it.


what's the point? (rhetorical question) you already think you know everything, and only want the opinions you have got from wikipedia and youtube (without any actual experience) confirmed.

I applaud your enthusiasm, and it's great you want to ask questions, but if you don't listen to the answers and just argue with people who have years of knowledge and experience then don't be surprised if you are just ignored.

about the videos of classical guitarist you posted here, be very wary of taking ideas from classical guitar without very careful consideration, which is not really possible for a beginner.

Re nails in particular classical guitarists have a whole different thing going on with tone compared to flamenco, but the ramp principle still applies.

if you want to know about flamenco nails, check out La Sonanta's Niño de Pura video.

EDIT:
quote:

or everyone here is not sure about it.
that seemed provocative, congratulations, it worked and you got a response.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2020 15:08:36
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11950
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to devilhand

You don’t understand. Kanengiser personal way is how it’s done. Scott Picture 3 is index, picture 4 ring finger, and middle finger is straight across as in a combo of both pictures. Shape is needed because of the entry and exit of string and planting set up. Pictures 1,2 are the common errors of nail shape. Number 1 being the most popular attempt until they finally figure it out, They fear hooking the ramp corner, but you won’t with good planting. You need to let the sides grow out so you can have material to shape. Start today as Scott shows, and next week results already appear. Pictures are 2D you can’t see the angle in any picture. It’s about how the string sees your nail, not your eyes. 3D.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 27 2020 18:05:46
 
Stu

Posts: 1805
Joined: Jan. 30 2007
From: London (the South of it), England

RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to Ricardo

Interesting stuff everyone.
Really haven't thought about nail shape for years. As after lots of experimenting and foro readings I found something that worked for me. That and I haven't played as much in the last 3 or so years. However since lockdown I have been playing a whole lot more and noticed a few issues. Something holding me back maybe....I did happen to think that it could be nail issues... So reading this is welcome and perhaps a sign to investigate/ experiment?! (Or it could be something else and messing with nails might be a bad idea!) 😄
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 28 2020 11:40:14
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