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RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to mark indigo)
I just mean when you're plucking the string, not when returning to initial position. Anyway, all of this is moot unless we see what devilhand is actually doing. It's just that when he suggested that tirando and picado are the same mechanically speaking, that raises all sorts of red flags for me.
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It's just that when he suggested that tirando and picado are the same mechanically speaking, that raises all sorts of red flags for me.
Piwin, I appreciate your concern. The mechanics of tirando (arpeggio) and apoyando (picado) are not exactly the same. But more similar than I thought.
One thing they have in common is the finger movement from the big knuckle. What differs is the hand position and the extent of middle and tip joint involvement.
How about the tip joint of the finger? Do you flex your tip joint while plucking the string in arpeggio or do you keep it more or less rigid like in rest stroke?
Now I have a clear answer to my question. I found it in Scott Tennant instructional video (Plucking the string section), right after he plays The Frog Galliard by John Dowland.
By the way, this is true of many professionals not just him - they might do what they advise at slow speeds but when they play ‘naturally’ at tempo their fingers appear to do something different.
I found a spot in one of the Oscar Herrero Paso a Paso videos (which otherwise I think are pretty good) where the same thing happens when he is explaining and demonstrating rasgueado abanico.
How about the tip joint of the finger? Do you flex your tip joint while plucking the string in arpeggio or do you keep it more or less rigid like in rest stroke? Many thanks in advance.
Slight flex for classical, per advice from Pepe Romero and others--fuller tone. The main sensation really is that the first touch of the string is a little further from the nail than for flamenco. To achieve that, the tips flex a little.
The spruce/Indian '73 Romanillos makes the difference very clear, more so than the other classicals. My first response to the guitar was, "What's the big deal?" After I had it for a few weeks and started to figure out how to play it, my response was,"Wow!"
Tip joint rigid for flamenco arpegio, first touch of the string closer to the nail, for more brilliant tone and greater speed.
Different mechanisms for apoyando and tirando:
I was looking at Ricardo Iznaola's "The Path to Virtuosity" the other day. To my amazement, in the first lesson on apoyando he insists that the right hand fingers be straight. It's not just that motion is only from the big knuckles, it's that the little knuckles are straight(!).
Then further along he says, OK now you can flex the little knuckle for apoyando, but don't move it.
I haven't gone back and re-read the first lessons on tirando, but I assume from the strong emphasis on stationary little knuckle for apoyando, he must think a little motion on tirando is OK.
It's the way I've done it for a long time, long before I ever heard of Iznaola. I don't think anyone ever told me how to do it. The response of my Ramirez blanca taught me.
I just realized I used the wrong word above. Since the original question was "rigid or flexed?" I tacitly equated "flexed" to "not rigid."
In fact a flexed fingertip means the tip joint is curved to bring the tip closer to the palm. That's the opposite to what I usually do for classical. I relax the tip joint a little to allow the tip to extend very slightly during a tirando stroke.
For a relaxed hand the tip joint is slightly flexed. Allowing the tip joint to move just a little during a tirando stroke doesn't have to result in a hyperextend tip.
How about the tip joint of the finger? Do you flex your tip joint while plucking the string in arpeggio or do you keep it more or less rigid like in rest stroke?
Now I have a clear answer to my question. I found it in Scott Tennant instructional video (Plucking the string section), right after he plays The Frog Galliard by John Dowland.
There’s a lot of discussion about this on the Delcamp forum. Basically, some of the advice Scott gives in Pumping Nylon regarding finger strokes he doesn’t appear to follow himself when you watch slowed down videos of him playing. By the way, this is true of many professionals not just him - they might do what they advise at slow speeds but when they play ‘naturally’ at tempo their fingers appear to do something different.
There is a spot in his video where Scott talks about arpegios... he makes a point that “we” don’t want to “claw” at the strings....however that may be for classical guitar style, for flamenco we do in fact “claw” at the strings that way. If the nails are filed correctly (as he also shows at the start of the video) that clawing thing makes for an excellently bright and ripping rhythmic arpegio. Not quite metallic but definantly can have an edgy “bite” that classical players deliberately avoid.
How about the tip joint of the finger? Do you flex your tip joint while plucking the string in arpeggio or do you keep it more or less rigid like in rest stroke?
Now I have a clear answer to my question. I found it in Scott Tennant instructional video (Plucking the string section), right after he plays The Frog Galliard by John Dowland.
No you didn't get it. What Scott is talking about is neither about flexing it, nor keeping it immobile (rigid), nor a completely relaxed tip joint that bends back (i.e passively extends) until it physically can't anymore.
Instead, he talks about it being flexible, having a little controlled 'give', especially at higher speeds, i.e. yielding a bit to the string pressure, thus passively extending a bit as a result, but all done with control. He calls it 'being a little flexible', which is OK, but also refers to it as 'it flexes a bit' which is incorrect usage; he is in fact still referring to the tip joint being flexible rather than rigid; a little passive extension with control.
This lockdown is playing nasty tricks on me. I'm starting to see lewd innuendos in a discussion about tip joints in arpeggio... Don't mind me. I'll go take a cold shower now.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
I don't have the Scott video but I read your comment and later this evening I made a conscious effort to keep track of my free strokes.
I find that we play, or should play a full range of free strokes: that silky top of the sound hole classical dynamic to the gritty one cigarette from the bridge three glasses of wine percussive attack. Less of this way or that?
Being classically trained I'm still pushing the string down though when I'm going maximum power with each free stroke.
I tried to dig in and claw a little as discussed but found I didn't like the tone and I didn't have the power. It's true I need to play with this more before before giving up. I didn't try it but if I clawed the wound strings close to the sound hole, where my fingers are when really going for it, I would roll them on the saddle, as it is I'm vary careful to drive the string directly with my Pulgar to keep it clean.
Perhaps it's time for another Ricardo kitchen short? ;)
Must add this what's so valuable about the Foro, gaining these little insites and then picking up the guitar and working through them, and every once in a while having that AhHa! moment that pushes one forward.
HR
ps. Heads up to Simon our web master: can't post PMs and get error 400. I get them but can't send...
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I prefer my flamenco guitar spicy, doesn't have to be fast, should have some meat on the bones, can be raw or well done, as long as it doesn't sound like it's turning green on an elevator floor.
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RE: Tip joint in arpeggio (in reply to ernandez R)
quote:
I don't have the Scott video but I read your comment and later this evening I made a conscious effort to keep track of my free strokes.
Should have shown it. The point I refer to here at 4:30 was inline w devil hand epiphany... and I’m saying for classical tone yes, but for flamenco tone it’s quite ok to make the “hook” ridged curved finger posture for AMI arps in particular. I recommend checking Scott’s entire video on that channel. Nail shape makes a huge difference in tone and feeling. Everything he talks about applies to flamenco EXCEPT this one point about clawing.
Here is a bunch of clawing AMI arps, it’s very flamenco ie not classical sounding
A big technical point is Scott says big knuckle above the string you pluck, apoyando above the bass string instead. Flamenco clawing arps are the same as for PICADO in that sense, so big knuckle above a bassier string, NOT the string you will pluck. Also note the paco examples on previous page, his arp posture and aggressive clawing at those notes (ring finger is like PICADO in certain cases as shown).
Anyway that posture allows easy interjection of PICADO in the middle of arpegio without changing position (0:25):
In fact a flexed fingertip means the tip joint is curved to bring the tip closer to the palm. That's the opposite to what I usually do for classical. I relax the tip joint a little to allow the tip to extend very slightly during a tirando stroke.
For a relaxed hand the tip joint is slightly flexed. Allowing the tip joint to move just a little during a tirando stroke doesn't have to result in a hyperextend tip.
The way you play tirando is exactly what Scott Tennant says in his video.
@kitarist You summed it up nicely and proved I understood it correctly. Thanks for that.
Anyway that posture allows easy interjection of PICADO in the middle of arpegio without changing position (0:25)
Thanks for the video. Looks like the big knuckle joint is less involved and the majority of the movement comes from the middle joint. But I'm not sure about clawing arps. I heard negative things about it. Restricts faster movements and leads to injuries easily etc. This is Antonio Rey's right hand and he changes his right hand position. Paco's technique will certainly look more like this too. In which way do you play?
Look how he plucks the string during arpeggio. Exactly what Scott Tennant recommends.
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@kitarist You summed it up nicely and proved I understood it correctly.
You asked if it is one of two things, rigid or flexed, but the answer goes outside that to a third option. So your initial assumption implicit in your question was incorrect. But it is good that now you understand.
Looks like the big knuckle joint is less involved and the majority of the movement comes from the middle joint. But I'm not sure about clawing arps. I heard negative things about it. Restricts faster movements and leads to injuries easily etc. This is Antonio Rey's right hand and he changes his right hand position. Paco's technique will certainly look more like this too. In which way do you play?
Looks like, but it’s an illusion due to curvature. Everything is driven by big knuckle, arp, picado, tremolo. There can be some arch to the hand posture more or less, Antonio more, Manolo less, it can depend on thumb angle of attack, but main point is the curvature or hook design of the finger being rigid not flexible. Antonio is not doing a different sound than any other Flamenco player, it’s not what Scott is doing or suggesting.
Finally he does NOT change his hand posture or position for the apoyando run...he is moving his freakin ARM up, because the notes needed begin on the third string. Since he maintained the slightly arched posture, he has to move the arm or else his fingers will have to straighten THAT would be a change of posture and inhibit fluidity a bit. Also, the clip you provide is full plant pima arp. The clawing thing is more obvious on sequential AMI arps.
Again, the thing Manolo does with less arch, more flat posture, he can play the apoyando or arp or tremolo and reach 3 Adjacent strings comfortable without Moving the arm much at all. To say this posture is “restricting” or “leading to injury”, is totally misinformed.
First you have to download the video. The rest is done on this website. Upload the video to the website. Next step cut the video, slow it down (I choose multiplier 0.25 with mute sound), convert to animated png and crop the png file. If the file is still too big you can optimize it. Last step download the file. Every step is easy. Try it out.
Finally he does NOT change his hand posture or position for the apoyando run
There might be a confusion between hand posture and position. Are they interchangeably used? I just realised hand position remains always the same in flamenco no matter which technique. What changes is the hand posture. A. Rey and PdL have the same hand posture when playing arpeggio - no clawing arp and thus more like classical guitar arps. Look at the Paco's hand. There is a change in hand posture when he goes from arpeggio to picado. This time sequential plant. M. Sanlucar and G. Nunez use clawing arps you mentioned. Thanks for pointing this out. My impression is short/fat fingers suit clawing arps and longer/skinnier fingers classical guitar arps.
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no clawing arp and thus more like classical guitar arps.
No, you keep showing full planting pima arps. It’s not how Scott wants it anyway I promise. He wants a relaxed flexible tip joint. If you want to do that yourself, be my guest. While Antonio is basically going for Pacos sound and style, his wrist position is quite different, hence the constant arch in the posture of his fingers at the big knuckle. Paco flattens out in prep for PICADO in your example, his hand ends up exactly like Manolo and Gerardo...the reason is because of the position his thumb takes during the arpegio passage is different. Manolo and Gerardo are having the thumb closer to the sound hole during both arp and PICADO.
None of this has to do with flexing the tip joint ala Scott tenant. The tip joint will be flexible in picado however IF the finger (either I or m) is reaching back to a bass string (higher adjacent string) note from a treble note. We never need to do this for tirando (arpegios or ever) because don’t need to rest the finger, so in the curved design it remains rigid (or at least follows through in a fist like manner).
All I’m pointing out is when Scott says “you’re gonna be clawing at the string, that’s gonna sound pretty ugly”, it’s not the case for Flamenco. His deliberate avoidance of that sound is why, during his Arpegio title page, his solea arpegios sound freaking WRONG tone wise. He actually believes the flexible tip that he uses to make that warm round tone is the only correct way. I’m saying it’s not so. Don’t do that unless you want to sound like that on purpose. 8:03
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We never need to do this for tirando (arpegios or ever) because don’t need to rest the finger, so in the curved design it remains rigid (or at least follows through in a fist like manner).
You recommend a rigid tip joint, not flexible at all from the beginning to the end of the plucking process to sound flamenco? In arpeggio, I always thought it's not the technique, but the guitar that determines the flamenco arpeggio sound meaning that arpeggio is the same for both classical music and flamenco.
We never need to do this for tirando (arpegios or ever) because don’t need to rest the finger, so in the curved design it remains rigid (or at least follows through in a fist like manner).
You recommend a rigid tip joint, not flexible at all from the beginning to the end of the plucking process to sound flamenco? In arpeggio, I always thought it's not the technique, but the guitar that determines the flamenco arpeggio sound meaning that arpeggio is the same for both classical music and flamenco.
For Tirando yes, meaning free strokes whether scales arpegios or tremolos are interpreted. Zero “give” or flexibility of tip joint. UNLESS you want to sound With warm and round classical tone like Scott Tenant and other classical players.
The Ami arpegio Examples earlier, Paco and Vicente, that use apoyando, MUST allow that flexibility in order to achieve the rest stroke.
Anyway that posture allows easy interjection of PICADO in the middle of arpegio without changing position (0:25)
Do you think there's a slight change in A. Rey's and Paco's hand postion or there's no change as shown in M. Sanlucar video at 0:25?
Yes because when they play bass notes opposite the arpegios, they have the thumb a little bit straighter to make a certain rest stroke sound they want, and that thumb angle forces the big knuckles of fingers to arch slight. When Manolo Or Gerardo and some others play arpegios they maintain thumb angle more to the side closer to sound hole, allowing for a more flat posture.
For now don’t worry about these details, focus on producing the sound you want to achieve. Compare piece at 30:20, and lovely ami at 8:00
To this piece
For me the difference is the thumb angle. And it’s very slight insignificant detail musically.
For me the difference is the thumb angle. And it’s very slight insignificant detail musically.
I was thinking the same. It's the thumb which plays an important role for arpeggio hand posture in flamenco. Not the position of the middle or knuckle joint.
I think if I want to copy Paco, my arpeggio hand posture would be chosen in such a way that my thumb can play rest stroke on the 6th/5th string and free stroke on the 4th string. I don't know if you watched hot licks video Effortless Classical Guitar of William Kanengiser. What he recommends is zero hand movement from arpeggio to picado. He must have been influenced by Pepe Romero.
For me the difference is the thumb angle. And it’s very slight insignificant detail musically.
I was thinking the same. It's the thumb which plays an important role for arpeggio hand posture in flamenco. Not the position of the middle or knuckle joint.
I think if I want to copy Paco, my arpeggio hand posture would be chosen in such a way that my thumb can play rest stroke on the 6th/5th string and free stroke on the 4th string. I don't know if you watched hot licks video Effortless Classical Guitar of William Kanengiser. What he recommends is zero hand movement from arpeggio to picado. He must have been influenced by Pepe Romero.
Paco de Lucia (in my opinion ) plays with a large component of the movement coming from the middle knuckle. Hand is compact and fairly flat. It's a sideways pull/snap over a very small distance. Power comes from muscles in the forearm of course (as it does for those who direct the main power from the large knuckle - an alternative method, but not used by Paco). Hand position for arpeggio and picado can be very similar. If you are doing rest stroke arpeggios then no change in position is needed. Otherwise the hand can be slightly raised for tirando arpeggio.
Look at videos of Paco playing - they are pretty clear.
Look at videos of Paco playing - they are pretty clear.
Pretty clear to me too...but the opposite of what you imply. Stroke for both apoyando and tirando is driven by large knuckle. A trigger pull from middle knuckle is quite different. For tirando I would call it “scratching” instead of “clawing”. For apoyando the trigger pull would also be a type of scratching with flexible tip joints, vs (what apoyando actually should be) tapping, or typing, or driving the string downward.
But, it seems we’ve had this discussion before, no?
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) plays with a large component of the movement coming from the middle knuckle. Hand is compact and fairly flat. It's a sideways pull/snap over a very small distance. Power comes from muscles in the forearm of course (as it does for those who direct the main power from the large knuckle - an alternative method, but not used by Paco). 
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