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RE: Tremolo
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Piwin
Posts: 3504
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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 RE: Tremolo (in reply to rombsix)
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It's funny how differently people can approach the same thing. Every time they say "but if you take away the thumb", I'm just thinking...but why would you do that?! The thumb is there, so no I isn't repeated. 
Auda's version at least makes more sense in that there actually is more space between two strokes of the same finger. But Sal's version, well, all he's done is switch the I "repeat" for an M "repeat". piamIpIami and now pMaMipMaMi. It's the same thing, except in one case the "repeat" is separated by the thumb and in the other by the ring finger. In fact, if you play a tremolo not as quintuplets but bunched up as grace notes, than the repeat of M with his fingering happens much faster than the repeat of I in standard fingering, so you'd think, as far as a finger "repeating" goes, his version is a lot harder. I mean, if he's more comfortable playing it that way that's great. It's just that explanation of "it's because in the standard version I repeats" that makes no sense to me. 
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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Apr. 29 2020 5:08:25
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rombsix
Posts: 7699
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon
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RE: Tremolo (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
It's funny how differently people can approach the same thing. Every time they say "but if you take away the thumb", I'm just thinking...but why would you do that?! The thumb is there, so no I isn't repeated.
Auda's version at least makes more sense in that there actually is more space between two strokes of the same finger. But Sal's version, well, all he's done is switch the I "repeat" for an M "repeat". piamIpIami and now pMaMipMaMi. It's the same thing, except in one case the "repeat" is separated by the thumb and in the other by the ring finger. In fact, if you play a tremolo not as quintuplets but bunched up as grace notes, than the repeat of M with his fingering happens much faster than the repeat of I in standard fingering, so you'd think, as far as a finger "repeating" goes, his version is a lot harder. I mean, if he's more comfortable playing it that way that's great. It's just that explanation of "it's because in the standard version I repeats" that makes no sense to me.
Don't mess with Sal, otherwise the coffin dance guys may appear at your doorstep.
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Ramzi
http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
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Date Apr. 29 2020 16:35:07
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Piwin
Posts: 3504
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Tremolo (in reply to Auda)
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quote:
The repeat is not the same as it appears there is no mpm
I guess. I get that for some reason for you it's different if there's a thumb stroke in there. I just don't understand why you feel it's so different. The way I'm thinking of it is that ipi is one of the easiest things to do. mam on the other hand is fairly restrictive, just because of how the fingers are connected. So I don't understand how Sal would prefer adding an mam in there just to avoid the ipi. Feels like making things unnecessarily complicated. As does your own tremolo pattern tbh. I mean, I'd bet good money both of you play the standard double arpeggio pimami like everyone else, just because right-hand distribution would be pretty complicated if you did other patterns for that. Am I wrong? Yet, it has that ipi "repetition" in there. Does it bother you there, or is it just with tremolo that it's a problem? Anyway, everyone does their own thing and in the end the proof is in whether you can play a good tremolo that way. Not criticizing your or Sal's approach (please don't kill me Ramzi!!!!! ^^), I just don't understand the explanation about not wanting to have i "repeat".
Re: amima, to me that's an arpeggio pattern. To use it in scale runs it would have to be paired with a specific string distribution, otherwise, for me at least, it would be unnecessarily complicated. I mean, if you do it that way without any consideration to distribution, you could end up having to play, for instance, a sequence where a plays 6th string, m 5th string and i 4th string, which is rather uncomfortable.
_____________________________
"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
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Date Apr. 30 2020 11:09:16
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Ricardo
Posts: 14231
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
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RE: Tremolo (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin
It's funny how differently people can approach the same thing. Every time they say "but if you take away the thumb", I'm just thinking...but why would you do that?! The thumb is there, so no I isn't repeated.
Auda's version at least makes more sense in that there actually is more space between two strokes of the same finger. But Sal's version, well, all he's done is switch the I "repeat" for an M "repeat". piamIpIami and now pMaMipMaMi. It's the same thing, except in one case the "repeat" is separated by the thumb and in the other by the ring finger. In fact, if you play a tremolo not as quintuplets but bunched up as grace notes, than the repeat of M with his fingering happens much faster than the repeat of I in standard fingering, so you'd think, as far as a finger "repeating" goes, his version is a lot harder. I mean, if he's more comfortable playing it that way that's great. It's just that explanation of "it's because in the standard version I repeats" that makes no sense to me.
You are totally correct. With Sal the problem begins from his “decision” to not do apoyando pulgar. Next, at 10:40 he states he was taught pmami by someone and doesn’t understand why all the books print Piami. So right there is the red flag. He doesn’t actually know that it’s a transcription of how the non reading players have been doing it for over a CENTURY, nor WHY they are doing it like that ie, like my beginner/intermediate self and most others, the concept of the technique is backwards. He doesn’t see the grace note heading towards a secure rested thumb note as the PURPOSE of the technique. They all seem to think it’s just like recuerdos de La Alhambra with an awkward extra i stroke forced in for no reason other than it’s “Flamenco”.
This is a typical problem of trying to learn from books ie, via a different discipline. Myself included, it wasn’t until my first Spain trip until I realized what tremolo was about, and how it could be taught with no score. Also, pmpmpm might be easier for some people to get used to, it was for me too at the start, and again it comes from NOT wanting to rest and drag pulgar apoyando as much as I should have. So TIRANDO p m p m is very comfy for people, especially if you come from classical guitar, but if you learn to REST and drag pulgar, the change of angle and feeling makes pipipipi etc much more natural.
From resting p and doing i tirando against that, or any arp combo, stems the concept of the 4 finger leading into the rest and drag thumb...and finally tremolo is easy and natural too for making a melody sustain above the chord and becomes a fun and easy compositional device. But it ALL starts from resting the thumb and getting used that posture and feeling.
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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
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Date Apr. 30 2020 23:37:26
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Auda
Posts: 241
Joined: Sep. 28 2019
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RE: Tremolo (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
I just don't understand the explanation about not wanting to have i "repeat".
Re: amima, to me that's an arpeggio pattern. To use it in scale runs it would have to be paired with a specific string distribution, otherwise, for me at least, it would be unnecessarily complicated. I mean, if you do it that way without any consideration to distribution, you could end up having to play, for instance, a sequence where a plays 6th string, m 5th string and i 4th string, which is rather uncomfortable.
About the i "repeat" - I think I might approach it differently. I try to generally operate my fingers in sequence and plug in the pulgar where needed. To me the two are separate. With fingers I try to keep them in order where I can. The piami contradicts the approach. I can play it effectively in my meager repertoire. When I first started working on the 5 note tremolo (piami) it took a while to get it going likely due being used to the 4 note tremolo. Though I have not really worked on it all that much with the way I am proposing it appears not too difficult to get going likely because oof working on piami. I have not yet used it in the pieces I have learned mostly due to not wanting to change until I have the pieces completely locked in and I appear to be a slow learner.
About amima - again I have not really worked on it much but once I do I reckon it will not take too long. I seem to have acquired the ability since starting again to play scales multiple ways ie im, ia, am, ami, ima w/o changing the left hand fingering and can change between them while in the middle of playing the scale. I can do the same with 4 note tremolo though I typically play it pimi, pmim instead of pami now.
Cheers
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Date May 2 2020 16:44:40
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