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Ricardo

Posts: 14921
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to estebanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I was summoned to bear witness to an extreme sanding event. Where and why are we talking about sanding? Context, and conflict update please 🙏


Typical story. Conde not built by Condes. This video here is “proof” that Mariano is the only conde building a conde. And his son (conspicuously absent). I wonder if there is legitimate building going on in the video, that can be easily scanned through real quick, by any luthier, and determine “sure that is how it is done.”, or “WTF is he doing in there for 9 hours??”.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 27 2024 12:28:00
 
orsonw

Posts: 1946
Joined: Jul. 4 2009
From: London

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

And his son (conspicuously absent).

They've been live streaming every day this week. They've both been there e.g. At the moment of posting it's only the son working.

https://www.youtube.com/@Guitarras_MarianoConde/streams
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 27 2024 13:10:56
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1133
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Ricardo

Guys , do you really think there’s someone that idiot to spend hours watched by a camera pretending to be making guitars without actually doing it? Come on.
Here in the Foroflamenco we had a video of a legitimate former employee of the shop in Calle Felipe V stating he was trained by Mariano and worked under his directions. If this wasn’t enough, almost every pro in Spain will tell you Mariano was the guy taking care of the job and Felipe the businessman with a law degree. It’s everything but a secret.
Not by chance Felipe got easily the patents of the previous shop (he also own the name Conde Hermanos) and the contracts with the main dealers when the 2 brothers split.
I have always stated that the Felipe V Conde shop outsourced part of their output and still do the 2 actual shops of Mariano and Felipe. Mariano also makes guitars first hand though while Felipe doesn’t .
Given the above, it’s just funny you doubt Mariano instead of Felipe.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 27 2024 16:37:24
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 663
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to orsonw

they seem well organized , they can easly finish some per week (without varnish and special inlays/biding/rosete etc)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 27 2024 17:10:48
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14921
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Echi

quote:

and the contracts with the main dealers when the 2 brothers split.


“Dealers”? You mean the actual builders in Valencia? Which are Adilid and Esteve? Sanchis? If not what you mean, then what the hell do you mean precisely? In other words show me the Felipe father and son equivalent instrument please that I might try with my own hands. I will, if I haven’t already and simply not realized.

Look, the reason it is funny to me, is because 10 years ago I had the chance, with in a two day period to experience the “truth or the lie” which ever was going on. My initial bias was that both brothers and their sons know zero about building a guitar and purchase cheap Valencia guitars from makers we are ALL well acquainted with, at $1000 or less, and bold face lie about it and sell these things for 8-10k. In otherwords, a “racket”. I was quite shocked by the Felipe jr guitar, whoever is building it, and continue to be surprised. The father guitar was as expected, very high quality typical conde every damn pro has ever used, so sure, he has the same contractor whoever that always was. (Sanchis? Or possible he actual builds a freaking guitar. I dont’ actually care that much other than I would like very much to know WHO build that thing). As people they were very much down to earth, more interested in talking guitar details and the juergas that they participated in than selling anything. It was more like they were sharing their ideas, then peddling junk to suckers. Especially Felipe jr. And I am quite aware of compulsive liars and how they respond to basic questions. And I was on the watch (sadly and wrongly in this case) with those two.

The very next day I got to visit Mariano. To be nice, the 8k instruments LOOKED like Condes. I played several, and saw a very different thing going on there than what I had just experienced with the other two guys. Again, some luthier please explain sanding the back of a closed box with no neck? I have only seen that with dove tail join designs, very very damn different than any conde I have ever seen. Unless I was witnessing the unique experiment of a maestro…who in the end is letting too thick a finish go on top of ALL his work?

Anyway, the story does not make much sense to me, I am very sorry. Again I don’t care if there is a bold face lie to my face going on (as I have talked to Felipe jr. about this directly, and if he is lying, he is a genius at it), but I would like to know who is the hands on constructor, that I might try his damn guitar. Whoever is building the Marianos I played that day in the shop, I don’t really care much about.

quote:

Guys , do you really think there’s someone that idiot to spend hours watched by a camera pretending to be making guitars without actually doing it? Come on.


Simple question would be, why even do it at all then? And second question, why don’t they show building a complete guitar time lapse? Much simpler proof. Turning back to the camera THAT YOU INSTALLED YOURSELF during some procedures is beyond odd, unless you are showing “look I am doing SOMETHING here!”.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 27 2024 19:33:19
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 663
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Ricardo

well , where theres smoke, normally theres fire
many people says Sanchis , some said that saw Conde media luna at Sanchis covered or poor covered with a "rag"
some also say Raimundo and Esteve

Saw some comunication from them and its awfull , very arrogant and defensive , dont know if its allways like this or just heat of the moment.
whos "Hugo Silva" ?

What a ****show lmfao
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 27 2024 20:14:25
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14921
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Manitas de Lata

quote:

well , where theres smoke, normally theres fire
many people says Sanchis , some said that saw Conde media luna at Sanchis covered or poor covered with a "rag"
some also say Raimundo and Esteve


Of course, I first heard from Guitar salon dealer more than 20 years ago. I made sure to specify “media Luna?? A models?”. But people parrot these things without having seen it for sure, or the people that do see are not experienced. My friend had Atocha conde with Sanchis stamp on the soundboard. However, the instrument was only $1200 (meaning the Conde cost the same as the Sanchis, so no scam going on). Nobody that discussed this issue understood what A model vs B model etc. means, or how to recognize. So, what it comes down to is whether or not ANY damn guitar ever built was NOT from Valencia. And if the ones claimed as “A” guitars actually come from Valencia, why are those builders NOT building their OWN DAMN NAME up with that info??? It makes zero sense. Nor does it make sense that some random Madrid no-name persons are THE constructors that get no credit, rather paid to keep the mouth shut. Makes no sense. I get that people can be disillusioned, but there are some nonsensical things in the details. And the story keeps changing, which means a SIMPLE investigative journalist could EASILY get to the bottom of it all. I can’t believe none has tried to do this. Just go in to Valencia, talk to the workers, take freaking picture. Track the instruments from the shop to the dealers. Simple.

_____________________________

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www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 27 2024 20:41:56
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 663
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Ricardo

my personal experience in another mature market .

All of that craft was manual , sometimes some well knowed outsource glassing and sanding , so the finish , when they had a lot of orders..
And "ghost" workers were all over the small/top factories , they did all and the owner only signed... that was somekind of usual in top names

The game changing of that was CnC , machine automatic cutting , you just choose the model made on the software and the machine did all of the cut , its still called "pre shape".
After the pre shape its done , you saved lot of work and time and gain more precise produt , after that you finish the shape and glassing/sanding ad of course you can do it on the house or outsource.
The game stills rolled with ghost works that did all of the craft.
The top dog the master craft only do special orders for pros...sponsors and not all.

With these game changing Cnc machine , opened a huge market of licenses all over the world.
An EUA top dog or australian (or other) start to sell licenses of other countries , and some companys adquire those licenses and cnc machines , so they could replicate the models of the Top dogs , ghost workers and machine did all of the craft , they just put a signature silk when finished the shape.
And they charged like it was a genuine (and legally i think it is...)
So you are actually pay just for the name , of course also the model design , a local guy made it and you will adquire for triple of the actual cost if was the local guy selling it with his name you would pay less than triple of course.
Very few people knowed this , only close people .
I saw many people with X , Y , M goods and they pay a lot of money , thinkin that they were special to have an import , LMFAO....

After some years some guys purchase other licenses and they were open and anounce that , "we do the craft , we purchased the license for X top dog(s) "
And nothing wrong with this.

It seems some of the guitar craft still hides and lives in the world that i explained previous , when the other industry start with the cnc machine....
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 27 2024 21:55:41
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 663
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Manitas de Lata

this is my view as a insider from the other market, and we can replicate here

If the woods are good , if the craft is good , if the sound is good , and if you enjoy , people will purchase anyway a Top name that outsource and only finish or "only" craft the parts/processes that might do the difference.
Even if not so good they will purchase and try , a very well knowed name its huge in most of peoples minds , and so for the 2nd market , you can trade and loose less money or even gain.

I purchased only manual , and got very good and not so good , same as factories , of course if the crafter gets it right as you exactly want and he wants , thats another level...sometimes very hard to find.
Theres allways market for small all manual , is it fair to charge for something suposed semi manualTOP rather than Top full manual ? the market will answer to that , personal i dont think that is , again market will decide.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 27 2024 22:41:13
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1133
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Simple question would be, why even do it at all then? And second question, why don’t they show building a complete guitar time lapse?

Simple answer, for people who make speculations, like Solera did and maybe you and other are doing now, with all the respect. A Timelapse does prove less than a camera on your shop.
quote:

Dealers”? You mean the actual builders in Valencia?
I mean the press, shops like Guitar Salon, Solera Flamenca etc
I respect your opinion but many pro players are happy with the guitars of Mariano: probably you have not be happy with the specific guitars you tried.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 27 2024 22:58:19
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 663
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Echi

Ricardo can answer for himself , i think that you are missing the point here.

Pros have allways the good stuff on anything , we are generally speakin , so the pros have surely the good stuff , the issue is , and the others?
Pros dont pay them , well sometimes they pay just for the materials or just craft (for also a cheaper price) , and they can also sell the guitar to someone (the goods that have more demand allways.... the pro stuff)
Whos pays , who keeps the money in are average medium joes , not pros , or stars.
So the issue here is , are "we" getting the good stuff or valencia stuff?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 27 2024 23:43:44
 
estebanana

Posts: 9390
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

well , where theres smoke, normally theres fire
many people says Sanchis , some said that saw Conde media luna at Sanchis covered or poor covered with a "rag"
some also say Raimundo and Esteve


Of course, I first heard from Guitar salon dealer more than 20 years ago. I made sure to specify “media Luna?? A models?”. But people parrot these things without having seen it for sure, or the people that do see are not experienced. My friend had Atocha conde with Sanchis stamp on the soundboard. However, the instrument was only $1200 (meaning the Conde cost the same as the Sanchis, so no scam going on). Nobody that discussed this issue understood what A model vs B model etc. means, or how to recognize. So, what it comes down to is whether or not ANY damn guitar ever built was NOT from Valencia. And if the ones claimed as “A” guitars actually come from Valencia, why are those builders NOT building their OWN DAMN NAME up with that info??? It makes zero sense. Nor does it make sense that some random Madrid no-name persons are THE constructors that get no credit, rather paid to keep the mouth shut. Makes no sense. I get that people can be disillusioned, but there are some nonsensical things in the details. And the story keeps changing, which means a SIMPLE investigative journalist could EASILY get to the bottom of it all. I can’t believe none has tried to do this. Just go in to Valencia, talk to the workers, take freaking picture. Track the instruments from the shop to the dealers. Simple.



I have no idea what sanding the back means, and I’m too busy to look at a video of a dude sanding a back. Plus I don’t have the oat for it.

Where to conde’guitars come from? There’s a guy I’m friends with on social media who is from this family, he’s on about guitar number 55 or so. They seem like legit Conde’ guitars, but since I don’t follow the family like a genetics expert, or even at the 19th century level of science like Mendel and his generational knowledge of peas, I have no idea who’s kid he is.

It seems like if you know the catalog number of the red goma laca used on conde’ guitar’s and you can carve a convincing media luna, you could learn to make some conde’ guitars. If I had to guess or I wanted a guitar that sounds like a Conde’ I’d go to Valencia and poke around and buy one out of the back door of a factory. But there’s no way I would pay retail dealer price for one.

If I knew that some of the guitars sold as Conde’ were made in China, I wouldn’t buy that one. If I had been smart many years ago, I wouldn’t have quit my job at the college I was working in and …. No I’m too crazy, if I hadn’t tried to build guitars I’d have gone into a spiral of diminishing self worth and would have ended up managing a McDonalds in San Diego. I’m not worried about where babies come from or where Conde’s are spawned. I know better than to get into the ‘which side of the conde’ schism do you believe in’ - I have enough trouble with my own imposter syndrome than to get embroiled in some other guitar dynasties conspiracy theories over which are real Conde’ and which are Condoids.

On Star Trek there were humans and humanoids, maybe she’s not actually human, but the green humanoid women from the planet Risa, with big ta-tas are human enough for me.

Kirk out.

Who is the hotter alien? T’pol the Vulcan science officer or the Risan greenie with the crazy braceo?





Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (2)

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2024 8:18:17
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14921
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Manitas de Lata

quote:

I saw many people with X , Y , M goods and they pay a lot of money , thinkin that they were special to have an import , LMFAO....

After some years some guys purchase other licenses and they were open and anounce that , "we do the craft , we purchased the license for X top dog(s) "
And nothing wrong with this.


Of course this makes sense. Ramirez allowed his workmen to stamp their initials into the A models. Years later it mattered, somewhat, who build which, at least for resale. Ramirez also had B model guitars outsourced with different labels. So right there causes big confusions since the house that build them is not made clear, so there is no “we build for top dogs” as you say. This Conde family was doing this as well, Sons and aunts, and is the main reason for the conjecture “it is not just the student guitars, it is EVERY GUITAR”.

So it makes even less sense that people would bold face lie about building any guitar today, since as you say there is “nothing wrong with it”. Especially for a Lawyer to out right lie about it (if Felipe is practicing law, which I assumed not), since they should know it is perfectly fine to admit the truth for the reasons your analogy shows. The only reason for keeping it a deep dark secret I could imagine is that people can order the SAME guitar for a fraction of the cost…but it won’t look the same (assuming some legal issue about a media Luna head and rosette for example). But that only makes sense from the direction of the top dog, not the constructor, who should be free to advertise they build the same guitar but it is their own look…perhaps even better quality in someway. And no need to compete with low price, they should be able to charge the exact same (as we already see with Sanchis and B model guitars). In other words, the persons that built the A Conde guitars should be allowed to drive the market with their own name, in contrast to Luthiers with waiting lists. There would be no need to build a guitar with THEIR OWN NAME on the label as an inferior product, while producing master pieces for the top dog in madrid. Nonsensical.

What I came away with 10 years ago, after playing them back to back, was that ok, whatever they did in the past will eventually be known, as for now (2014), I can now put a face to the darn instrument by how it plays and sounds, and this could explain the “good vs bad” conde situation all along. If all that means is the construction house A is better than house B, I am fine with that. I am not fine with bold face lying about building a guitar, or pretending to build a guitar. It is disturbing because there is no need for it, it is lying for the sake of fooling people for no reason.

No luthier here wants to take the bait and scan through those Mariano Conde videos. Fine, I will drop it there. It only took me a few minutes to scrub through them. If pros in spain believe in Mariano and their MC guitars are legit, I am happy for them. Felipe Jr. guitar, the first one I played had a minor flaw…the type you simply never see on Valencia guitars, especially the ones they are pushing at higher prices. It is a type of flaw I have seen on hand built Luthier made guitars. It was a cedar top which I hate, and there was no right for that guitar to sound and play that good. It was a silly detail and long conversation. If that guitar was built by Alhambra in Valencia or in china whatever, great. Give that builder a medal and make a movie about his guitars. It makes no sense to be a big scam.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2024 12:31:02
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14921
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Echi

quote:

A Timelapse does prove less than a camera on your shop.


Simply false. A time lapse would show a single complete instrument from start to finish. There are plenty of these that are lovely to see and give the purchaser a piece of mind. Who has ever ordered a guitar and not enjoyed the photos of the various stages? This would clear all confusions in a concise and simple matter. A 24 hour cam where you TURN YOUR BACK on it while doing something is the OPPOSITE of coming clean. Plus the sign on the wall and all else mentioned, is pointing in the direction of acting in a fishy bizarre manner. If I am wrong, fine, but someone needs to tell Mariano to lose the sign, stop engaging with the drama, and just show how a guitar is built. People would like to see it if it is truth. One guitar, one short video. And here she is in the hands of maestro whoever. Simple, no trash talk, closed case. The very first video on this thread shows an example. You yourself called the results “an entry level” instrument, and for sure it is NOT a standard conde A model design as we all know. So that video proves Mariano builds “entry” level guitars, or whatever Sergio’s guitar was. He seems to love it, every thing is fine there. The issue is, that is NOT the guitar all us flamencos have used for decades that we know as “a good conde”. It has CLEAR diversions form the normal flamenco guitar design, and is called a “custom” job.

Felipe family could do the same, but there was the Maria Conde video where she shows and explains a lot of the generic process we all know. It doesn’t matter if Mariano does it differently, or even if Maria is bold face lying, every word. A simple video of a guitar built shuts everyone’s mouth period. Over doing it trying to prove a point is the opposite of effective.

quote:

I respect your opinion but many pro players are happy with the guitars of Mariano: probably you have not be happy with the specific guitars you tried.


Unfortunately the impression when you have them in your hands matters. There are dud Reyes and Santo out there somewhere. I had two dud Arcangels and Richard’s amazing piece. And then there is Pedro de Miguel and some people love or hate it. Different strokes. None of that has to do with LYING about building a freaking guitar. It seems if you “like” a Mariano, then Felipe is a Liar. This is strange, and people don’t seem to want to see it for what it is. Felipe seems to be selling the typical “good Conde” we all know about. Mariano doing something like Sergo’s guitar is different.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2024 12:42:57
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 663
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Ricardo

there were and there are now , cheapest Ramirez 2nd hand from 70/80/90 that they re not Ramirez, they have the stickers some with colour that were made outsource and they just control the quality and did some setup if i can recall , they are very open to that issue and they say those are not real ramirez , therefore just factory made with ramirez quality control check and setup, just that.
I think that they still have cheapest models outsource that they receive on the taller from factory that they check the quality and do some setup up if good , if not the guitar will go again to factory

The good stuff is made on the taller , well thats what they say... i dont know

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2024 13:57:01
 
johnnefastis

Posts: 631
Joined: Jan. 10 2012
 

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Ricardo

Part 1 is now unlisted but you can still watch it through the link Manitas de Lata posted here. Does anyone still have part 2 in their youtube history. I kinda want to watch it to catch up.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2024 20:15:12
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1133
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Ricardo

It’s probably useful to understand how these things work in Spain. If you miss the context, you don’t get exactly what Jordi said and your conclusions are wrong.

From the very beginning, the best luthiers in Spain used to be employed in small companies led by enlightened masters: this is the case of both José and Manuel Ramirez. You wouldn’t have Santos or Esteso without Manuel nor Enrique Garcia or Barbero without Jose’.
The appreciacion of the lonely artisan working everything by hand is something modern. At the time, a modern and organised workshop was considered positively.
In 1957-1959 the Conde family did the same, by opening a small laboratory with 3 to 5 employees based in Pozuelo da Alarcon.
Faustino led the shop and the whole business while Mariano the production.
Things started changing in the eighties in the whole sector (not just for the Conde): to hire an employee was inconvenient and it became quite common in Madrid to outsource part of the process or even guitars.
José Ramirez in 94 sent home at least ten workers, to give an idea.
This was made possible by the high availability of makers trained in Ramirez or Contreras etc. and the high level of skills.

In this context you may lead your own business and yet decide to outsource part of the process (the preparation of all the parts to be assembled or the varnishing ecc) or even to outsource the whole guitar, made to your specifications.
The Conde shop in Gravina, since 1977, started to take more advantage of this system.

Now, Jordi Franco is saying something obvious: from 1989 the Conde shop in Gravina used to outsource the guitars in Valencia while the shop in Felipe V had a couple of employees (working under Mariano’s guidance btw) and then used to commission some stages of the process and to outsource some guitars to someone else not in the shop.
I agree with this because I know directly people and facts.

The second statement is that even now both the shops of Felipe and Mariano do the same.
Mariano objects that all his guitars are made in his shop.
My position is that Mariano really makes guitars with his son and 1 employee in the shop but I think he may outsource some guitars as well.
Regarding the quality of his guitars he has many fans (Guerrero, Javier Conde, Riqueni, Amos Lora, ecc).
I for one have 3 old Faustino Conde guitars but never particularly liked the Felipe V stuff.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2024 22:40:16
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3435
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Ricardo

Since there are a couple of people here who may not have already read them, I wil repeat a couple of Conde stories from a previous geological area. My experiences were enough never to deal guitars with them.

One of my best friends received a 1973 Conde media luna his daughter had bought in Madrid, with the advice of a classical pro. When it was new it had all the tonal qualities of an unseasoned yellow pine two-by-four. I felt sorry for my friend, who had spent a lot of money for it, but I said nothing.

I had a´67 Ramirez blanca. I preferred it to any other blanca I had played, until a year and a half later, when the Conde had opened up into a growly, loud, fully flamenco marvel. Over the years I tried to buy it, without success. The only other blanca I have liked better than the Ramirez is the '82 Arcangel Fernandez Ricardo plays here:



(Some competent players have tried them both, and preferred the Ramirez.)

Some time in the later 1970s I ventured into the shop at Gravina 7 in Madrid. There were three small workbenches in the public area, each with a few tools on it. Clearly it was a very long time since any of the three had been used. I asked for one of their best blancas.

A young man behind the counter went into a back room and reappeared with one of the worst guitars I ever held in my hands. The top was thick, the finish was rough.The interior was spattered with glue. The neck was not only bent, it was twisted. The frets were rough and uneven. It played out of tune. The young man quoted a high price.

I sat on a stool in front of the counter and played a couple of Mario Escudero soleá falsetas. I handed the guitar back to the young man without a word. I had seen a few tourists with equally villainous Condes, who said they had paid high prices for them.

The young man glanced at an older man standing beside one of the workbenches, who later identified nimself as Faustino. With a nod from the older man, the clerk went into the back room again and emerged with a different guitar. This one was well made and sounded pretty good. I played about five minutes of soleá, then launched into granaínas, both mostly derived from Mario Escudero.

Apparently Faustino was unfamiliar with Escudero. Having first consulted a couple of bystanders,he dispatched a boy to fetch the profesor from down the street, who whispered to Faustino while I still played. Faustino nodded. The rare phenomenon of a guiri playing in compás was explained.

I handed the second guitar back to the young man and asked for some strings. Faustino approached, introduced himself, and may have been ready to bargain a little. I told him my name, paid for the strings and left.

At that time I had dealt with Jose Ramirez III, Manuel Contreras padre, Felix Mananero, and Paulino Bernabe hijo. None had ever tried to cheat me. All were paragons of courtesy and integrity. I saw Faustino as a crook, even though he had sold my friend's '73 blanca, one of the best guitars I ever played.

But it was a dud when he sold it.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 28 2024 23:36:52
 
estebanana

Posts: 9390
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Richard, a quick consultation to my vast library of volumes on the early years of GTS - geologic time scale- I’ve made an estimate of when the ‘Faustinoian Event’ happened.

Thank you once again for being the Historian in Residence, it’s always an enlightening moment to read your recollections of things that transpired on GTS lines before the last Ice Age.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 4:36:17
 
johnguitar

 

Posts: 208
Joined: Jan. 10 2006
 

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Ricardo

Some of the members ask, “Why would a maker lie about his process?” I am sorry to observe that a lot of money can be made by misleading your clients; or by outright lying. That has been a pet peeve of mine in the guitar world ever since I began to observe it and I have run afoul of more than a few “luthiers” and dealers. I now try to keep my mouth shut and limit my observations to dead makers. (That is a lesson I attribute to Richard Bruné). Specifically I know nothing about any Conde. One of the reasons I love Granada so much is that for the most part when you walk into a workshop you get handed a guitar made by the guitarrero. There are a few exceptions but you can usually tell because they have so many guitars at so many price points. They are also usually very slick characters and the storefront is too clean. We have tried to set ourselves apart from those few bad apples but that extra money they make allows them quite a bit of influence. Thanks Echi for the rational and observational statements on this thread. Richard, I too think of most of the makers I know as shining examples of honesty and integrity. That is why it bothers me so much to see the opposite; makes us all look bad.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 7:08:59
 
estebanana

Posts: 9390
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to johnguitar

quote:

ORIGINAL: johnguitar

Some of the members ask, “Why would a maker lie about his process?” I am sorry to observe that a lot of money can be made by misleading your clients; or by outright lying. That has been a pet peeve of mine in the guitar world ever since I began to observe it and I have run afoul of more than a few “luthiers” and dealers. I now try to keep my mouth shut and limit my observations to dead makers. (That is a lesson I attribute to Richard Bruné). Specifically I know nothing about any Conde. One of the reasons I love Granada so much is that for the most part when you walk into a workshop you get handed a guitar made by the guitarrero. There are a few exceptions but you can usually tell because they have so many guitars at so many price points. They are also usually very slick characters and the storefront is too clean. We have tried to set ourselves apart from those few bad apples but that extra money they make allows them quite a bit of influence. Thanks Echi for the rational and observational statements on this thread. Richard, I too think of most of the makers I know as shining examples of honesty and integrity. That is why is bothers me so much to see the opposite; makes us all look bad.



Nice post John ‘El Sabio de Granada’

It’s difficult enough to figure out how to develop into a mature guitar maker with your own sense of sound and style. It’s also difficult to be asked to render a public opinion on authenticity of other houses new instruments.

To sand or not to sand, that is the question. 😂

——————-

I bought a conde’ once.

A guitar player who was known for selling instruments occasionally on the side to students brought out and played it during my lesson. He made it known the guitar was for sale. I was interested, it was not a bad guitar, and in retrospect I sussed out that he didn’t pay much to acquire it.

This player was a professional and invited me to a party, he said I could find some corner and play it alone to see if it suited me. So that’s what I did. I got tucked away into secluded part of the giant yard of the wealthy patron hosting the party. After about ten minutes of playing it I heard someone calling this guitar players name out the back door of where the party was happening. The voice came a few yards closer and I could hear it was the guitar players wife. She was calling to him. I said he’s not out here, it’s me Stephen playing over here.

She said “Oh I heard this beautiful toque from the back door when I stepped out for air and I thought it was my husband sneaking off to play by himself. Okay, carry on.”

I surmised several years later that guitarist X had sent his wife on the errand of flattery to entice me into buying that Conde’. Which I did and resold it a year later, at a loss. That was on me, Guitarist X was a clever fox.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 7:37:04
 
Manitas de Lata

Posts: 663
Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Echi

maybe changed by guys like Lester Devoe and /or kind of "one man show" guitarreros, and some spanish makers saw that the market started to look for them (one man show)

Its all about the market, not all people all dumb , if they can have a high quality product "unique" for them , why pay the same for a factory one?

Funny that we discuss this on that "polemic" post..... about pricing , market etc
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 9:54:35
 
Manitas de Lata

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RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Ricardo

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 20:04:03
 
Manitas de Lata

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RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Manitas de Lata

forgot this video

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 29 2024 22:20:45
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3435
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Echi

quote:

Now, Jordi Franco is saying something obvious: from 1989 the Conde shop in Gravina used to outsource the guitars in Valencia while the shop in Felipe V had a couple of employees (working under Mariano’s guidance btw) and then used to commission some stages of the process and to outsource some guitars to someone else not in the shop.
I agree with this because I know directly people and facts.

The second statement is that even now both the shops of Felipe and Mariano do the same.
Mariano objects that all his guitars are made in his shop.


Now Jordi is apologizing to "the Conde family," and says he has taken down the "previous information."



RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 1 2024 7:41:25
 
estebanana

Posts: 9390
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Ricardo

What a soap opera

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 1 2024 8:02:11
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14921
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Manitas de Lata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manitas de Lata




Damn it! All those media lunas had the headstocks covered by cardboard sleeves to thwart the investigative journalists! At least I know that one commentor in Mariano’s video that claimed Felipe jr gets his guitar from Adalid is flat wrong. The procedure at 42:10 proves it to me.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 1 2024 12:46:56
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14921
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

Now Jordi is apologizing to "the Conde family," and says he has taken down the "previous information."


He must have been forced to sign the same NDA that the Conde’s make the builders sign. Soon we will see all the hot shot players using MC guitars on the Solera channel.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 1 2024 12:48:49
 
Manitas de Lata

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Joined: Oct. 9 2018
 

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Ricardo

i dont believe it , only mc 2nd hand .

They are outraged with this **** , and they attack everyone that says the oposite of them , of even share some suspious (like you did) , all because of Solera , so i dont believe that theyre "good"
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 1 2024 13:24:52
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14921
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Mariano Conde (in reply to Manitas de Lata



Or:



Take your pick. To me and my memory of back to back trials of the two guitars, those are fair representations of the voice of those instruments in general. No the mic, or playing, or action, is not the factor…it is how the guitars respond.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 1 2024 15:20:19
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