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mark indigo

 

Posts: 2707
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

This guy explains why minor key is different than major:


I like the way he says "not all theorists agree" and "this is the way I was taught". I think it's good to acknowledge this kind of difference of opinion or approach among authorities on a subject.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2019 16:52:58
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2707
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

There is no Flamenco scale and it’s certainly not the phrygian dominant, that’s been the whole argument from the start.

Check any classical piece in the minor key because it’s different than how major keys work. There is no single minor key scale, there are several different ones. Notice how they describe the Roman numerals. The same stuff applies to Flamenco, but we must invent a new series of Roman numerals to distinguish the tonic. Most often classical guys think Flamenco is simply in the minor key, but this is incorrect.


I often see scale/s of Phrygian flamenco referred to as "flamenco scale", not saying that's right, but what is the alternative? If it's not "Phrygian mode", "Phrygian Dominant" or "Flamenco Scale" what can we call it?

I think Oscar Herrero presents "Phrygian minor" (AKA the phrygian mode scale) and "Phrygian major" (AKA the phrygian dominant) in the paso a paso DVD's. This works for me as a basic starting point: 2 forms of phrygian scale.

Otherwise, how would you name or refer to the scale/s used in Phrygian flamenco?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 16 2019 17:00:06
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11366
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

Otherwise, how would you name or refer to the scale/s used in Phrygian flamenco?


The chord scale used for Roman numerals in tonal music is derived from the Ionian scale. It’s the ONLY one that can function as such. Within a major key EVERY kind of scale can come into play, hence you stop thinking that the MUSIC is based on a single scale and start focusing on the tonal harmony instead, and just think of it, if you must, as the “major scale”, which is subject to any chromatic accidentals. That’s why we have two names for the same “scale”. Terminology has evolved to think of the natural modes as derived FROM the major scale, so we must distinguish mode 1 from the major KEY at work.

In jazz, ALL modes, not just natural modes, are not derived FROM but rather altered versions OF the major scale, and they use numbers 1-7. Oddly they don’t use key signatures or “moveable do” on paper. Instead “1” is the root of each chord in a chart.

The minor KEY does not have a simple minor scale or mode that can work as the catch all Roman numeral system. What they teach generally is 3 scales, the combined 3 chord scales function with overlapping Roman numerals and several alternative options. In other words it’s ok in minor keys to have either iv or IV, as one derived from natural minor the other from melodic minor. Dumb rules like melodic up natural descending etc, derive from analysis revealing IV-V-i function in minor keys where the melody tends to alter the harmony going up, then change back to natural after the resolution to i. In the end, we note that chromatic accidentals introduce options of all scales just like major key is afforded.

This distinction between how you analyze a minor key piece versus a major key piece is important because we would have to do the same for Flamenco. However, just like it’s wrong to think of minor key pieces as based on a single scale, we must also derive our Phrygian chord scale from a complex mix of scales...again all subject to chromatic accidentals just like major key does. If you want, you can start with mode 5 of the 3 minor key scales (Herrero and others only using 2), but might notice certain other ones need to be added to flesh out the chord scale. For example mode 5 harmonic major, phrygian dominant #7, mode 2 melodic minor, and of course the important altered scale tritone sub (II7#11...the tonic is not in this scale but it’s chord is uber important in context of analysis), all have important functioning Flamenco chords derived from their chord scales.

So, major key= major scale subject to change.
Minor key= minor scales subject to change.
Phrygian key= phrygian scales subject to change.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 17 2019 11:40:24
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 148
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RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

The chord scale used for Roman numerals in tonal music is derived from the Ionian scale.

Speaking of roman numerals, can you please clarify the confusion between bVI and VI.
For example: A minor scale

Scale degrees: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 (notes: A B C D E F G)
Roman numerals: i iidim III iv v VI VII (chords: Am Bdim C Dm Em F G)

You wrote in your previous post Aug6th chords are bVI chords.

Your next post says Aug6th chord replaces VI chord in A minor key. Does it have to be bVI again? Why do you use different roman numerals there? A typo?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 17 2019 16:47:03
 
mark indigo

 

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Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

If you want, you can start with mode 5 of the 3 minor key scales (Herrero and others only using 2), but might notice certain other ones need to be added to flesh out the chord scale. For example mode 5 harmonic major, phrygian dominant #7, mode 2 melodic minor, and of course the important altered scale tritone sub (II7#11...the tonic is not in this scale but it’s chord is uber important in context of analysis), all have important functioning Flamenco chords derived from their chord scales.
How does 5th mode of fixed/jazz/ascending melodic minor (mixolydian b6?) come into it?

quote:

mode 5 harmonic major... mode 2 melodic minor
I get that, the latter has the melody note C# por arriba / F# por medio I come across a lot in early PDL (also first falseta Buleriando Moraito) - I think you mentioned earlier you hear that note with the Major 3rd in something from Montoya, that would be the former, mixolydian b2, yes?

quote:

phrygian dominant #7
that has the leading tone in the II chord, so gives II7, yes?

quote:

the important altered scale tritone sub (II7#11...the tonic is not in this scale but it’s chord is uber important in context of analysis)
what's this scale? do you mean the altered scale/7th mode of melodic minor? Assuming that's the scale, what note are you starting on if it doesn't have the tonic, and how is it important for analysis?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 17 2019 17:27:02
 
Ricardo

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Your next post says Aug6th chord replaces VI chord in A minor key. Does it have to be bVI again? Why do you use different roman numerals there? A typo?


You wrote your self... in minor key it’s b6. The reason you wrote that was because your 1234567 is Ionian. In classical music BOTH the major key AND minor key Aug6 chords are written or spoken INSTEAD of the b6 scale degree Roman numeral (bVI in MAJOR, or VI in minor, which is already understood as flat, are NOT used, rather replaced by “German 6” or French or whatever the heck it is) . I was making it clear that regardless if you are in a major or minor key the Aug6 is replacing a chord with a bass note that is the b6 of the tonic key.

Again in the C MAJOR key vi is A minor... your Aug6 chord is an Ab7 chord. The temptation is to write bVI7....instead of doing that you would write “It+6” or “gr+6” or “Fr+6” depending on the voicing. That is why I said “Aug6 are subbing the bVI7”. Meaning you are using substitute terminology for that chord. Even if I had written “bVI in minor”, it’s only redundant because you know 6 is flat anyway.

Imagine if you had learned that 1234567 was the minor scale. That’s why we don’t # or b Roman numerals typically. Understanding circle of 5ths clears up all that mess.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 17 2019 23:19:14
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

How does 5th mode of fixed/jazz/ascending melodic minor (mixolydian b6?) come into it?


In por Arriba it can account for a D major chord or used in a falseta heading or pulling to A minor coming from tonic. All I can say is it’s easy to apply if you know how. Cmj7+ is cool. Because the F note is altered, other scales might be prioritized ahead of that one for Flamenco purposes. Mode 2 for example keeps the E and F sounding “phrygian”. But por Arriba makes excellent use for F# note all the time. Again, my entire point is that scales, as in needing to hear the entire 7 note beast, is not really the point of tonal music, and I keep saying flamenco is tonal. Hunting for complete scales used in Flamenco is a mental exercise I’m getting tired of doing, but they are in there.

quote:

mixolydian b2, yes?

Yes

quote:

that has the leading tone in the II chord, so gives II7, yes?


Yes, among some other cool sounds like B13b5,b9. Note that’s different than super locrian B7#5#9 which leads to your next question. The phrygian dominant #7 has the tonic, so it’s a nice theory justification of the II7#11 based on F.

However super locrian is a favorite altered dominant function scale because it somehow serves to pull to tonic when used in jazz in place of the V chord (even though the scale itself doesn’t contain the tonic, ie, B super locrian does not contain E natural in other words). Why? Because the tritone sub of it is called “Lydian dominant”. F Lydian dominant is the same as your altered B7#5#9. F7#11 in Flamenco music IS the tritone sub at work already. That was the whole silly argument with romerito, but he thought we meant doing lydian dominant over B7 (the wrong key in other words) was the implication of “tritone subbing”.

What happens is the F Lydian dominant retains the lydian flavor of F lydian, which is used extensively in por Arriba, But makes it pull harder by dropping the E to Eb. The other scale above, phrygian dom #7, doesn’t work as nice because of the clash of the G# vs G natural in that harmonic environment. Taranta is where you hear more old school stuff mixing both the lydian dominant and normal Lydian sounds together versus modern toque where you find it everywhere.

I would say this mixing of the two Lydian scales over the II chord to be even more important than the mixing of the three phrygian scales... simply because of the amount of time and drama is spent by guitarists in that territory. Indeed I find the fakemenco stuff doing too much with superficial Arabic phrygian sound, and missing out on all the drama and beauty that Flamenco is really about when you get deeper into the harmonic tensions and resolutions.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 18 2019 0:00:46
 
Piwin

Posts: 2438
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to kitarist

Man you think I gave you nightmares with that dullahan business? Look what I found:
https://dfilipczak.github.io/Lufttonnetz/index.html
I blame you for making me curious about this stuff. I'll be dreaming about flying donuts with gloomy music for the next week now.


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 22 2019 13:09:54
 
kitarist

Posts: 693
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Piwin

quote:

https://dfilipczak.github.io/Lufttonnetz/index.html


OK that's impressive. But how do you turn it off or pause it once it gets going? I got tired of it pretty quickly - BOINK! .. BOINK! .. BOINK! .. BOINK! .... Gaaah!

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 22 2019 19:44:31
 
Piwin

Posts: 2438
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to kitarist

I know right... I just mute the page while I enter the series of changes I want to try, otherwise I'd go bananas.
There's also a 2D tonnetz visualizer that's a bit more flexible (and doesn't go BOINK ^^): https://cifkao.github.io/tonnetz-viz/
The input is different, just plain keyboard. Far from perfect but fun to mess around with. I don't like how it repeats the lattice. Kind of distracting to press one note and see it appear in 5 different places... As applied to a piece:

One thing that's missing is a color code to separate voices, but I can see why that would be hard to do automatically. I like how this guy does it but he has to animate it all by hand:


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 22 2019 20:31:43
 
henrym3483

Posts: 1509
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

In the end I view most of the best flamenco as a game of thrones where the Queen Lydian reigning for the bulk of it until she finally concedes the throne back to the phrygian king in a beautiful dramatic exchange. In fandango she allows the old Ionian king to pretend he is in charge for a little while before giving it back to the same phrygian king once again. When she plays with any of the other modes, they have no illusions of pretending it’s more than a fling, because the true king she knows quite well.


i really need to get my head round this stuff, because i feel like a dolt for most of this thread.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 30 2019 14:57:27
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 148
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RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

Here's an extremely interesting video by Mr. Beato. Glad that he has pointed out b6 resolving to 5, which creates this haunting melancholy Aeolian sound.
What I learned from Mr. Marlow is the harmonized resolution of what he mentioned is bVI-V. And this is the characteristic of flamenco sound. I think he implicitly refers to Aug6 chords in minor keys.
One thing I'm not sure is what he's meaning by Aeolian mode in this whole video. Is this natural minor or Aeolian mode?
Mr. Marlow could you please review this video?



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 1 2020 17:59:30
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

One thing I'm not sure is what he's meaning by Aeolian mode in this whole video. Is this natural minor or Aeolian mode?


Aeolian mode and the natural minor SCALE are the same notes, same tonic. In the same sense the Ionian mode is also equivalent to the major SCALE. The reason we have two different names for the exact same musical sound is because in the baroque period they invented KEYS that use functioning harmony, and the two key tonics they settled on resemble more closely the Ionian mode (major key) and Aeolian mode (minor key which requires alteration in order to have functioning harmony, hence three or more versions of the minor scale). So keys are organization of the related modes (related by the same key signature) all under one big umbrella called a key, which obeys functioning harmony.

What I don’t like about Beato is he gives examples called “Aeolian sound”, and often you could easily call those examples natural minor in context, so you were right to be confused. Proper Aeolian mode won’t use all those other chords. Again think beat it by Michael Jackson, only three chords in a rhythm that keeps the ear grounded on the tonic. Also, he emphasized the b6->5 intervalic relation, but failed to differentiate the sound overall from phrygian which also has the b6->5 relationship. In other words that Halloween movie riff could also be phrygian sound. What you need to hear is also the minor 9th (As opposed to b9 or b2nd, sing or play G natural during that riff to prove it to your ear) in addition to the b6 to establish aeolian sound.

Here is proper Aeolian from 2:16-5:27. The chords are Dm7 and Bb/D. One could argue for Bb Lydian if not for the constant bass note ringing on D. Notice how this section stays constant and grounded on the mode for several minutes. That is how we best establish and use modes on tonal instruments. It’s called a “vamp”.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 2 2020 17:58:28
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Here is proper Aeolian from 2:16-5:27. The chords are Dm7 and Bb/D. One could argue for Bb Lydian if not for the constant bass note ringing on D. Notice how this section stays constant and grounded on the mode for several minutes. That is how we best establish and use modes on tonal instruments. It’s called a “vamp”.

It sounds like there's a 3rd instrument (maybe 2nd piano) - not visible in the video - playing a vamp from 1:24 to 1:58 and from 2:16 to 5:27.
Are they playing in D Aeolian mode?
What's going on between 3:34 and 5:29? Is the woman vamping while Mr. McLaughlin is soloing?

quote:

What you need to hear is also the minor 9th (As opposed to b9 or b2nd, sing or play G natural during that riff to prove it to your ear) in addition to the b6 to establish aeolian sound.

You mean minor 9th chord with b6, for example Cm9 with b6 (C Eb G Bb D with Ab), where the bass player plays the note G? Does this chord need to be resolved or is it played throughout the song as a vamp without resolution?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 3 2020 17:27:10
 
Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

It sounds like there's a 3rd instrument (maybe 2nd piano) - not visible in the vide


No... piano players do use two hands don’t forget. This is a live duet Amigo.

quote:

Are they playing in D Aeolian mode?
What's going on between 3:34 and 5:29? Is the woman vamping while Mr. McLaughlin is soloing?


Yes. And yes.


quote:

quote:

What you need to hear is also the minor 9th (As opposed to b9 or b2nd, sing or play G natural during that riff to prove it to your ear) in addition to the b6 to establish aeolian sound.

You mean minor 9th chord with b6, for example Cm9 with b6 (C Eb G Bb D with Ab), where the bass player plays the note G? Does this chord need to be resolved or is it played throughout the song as a vamp without resolution?


I was referring the Halloween example in Beatos video (5:07). It was a piano melody going C#-F#-F#-C#-F#-F#-C#-F#-D-F# etc. even though music suggest an F#minor triad, there is nothing to distinguish that the song (section) is F#Aeolian and not F#phrygian because there is no G or G#. If you play a G natural while Beato demonstrates the passage you will be hearing the theme as phrygian NOT aeolian. G is b2 or b9 interval. If you repeat the exercise I described with G# instead you will hear the major 2nd or the minor 9th interval and THAT sound would provide the aeolian sound. I’m saying the ambiguity of the examples makes it a very poor one to get the idea he was trying to convey across to the students.

For the record, the second phrase from Halloween the melody drops a half step (CFFCFFCFDbF), but the bass moves up to Bb. That could be seen as either Bb aeolian or Bb Dorian...Note that the theme is not the the 5th and b6 in that case, it’s the minor 9th moving up to minor 3rd and back. Wish Beato would clarify that stuff.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 3 2020 21:50:33
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

Thnx for the detailed explanation. Speaking of a vamp, I want to clear some things up.
What is the difference between a vamp and a backing track and also the difference between a vamp and a modal vamp?

What makes a vamp to be a vamp? I understood it never resolves? Otherwise it's not a vamp.
Another question is while vamping there is always a solo or melodic lines or singing. Does the solo played over a vamp have to have a tonal center and gravitate towards a certain key?

quote:

If you play a G natural while Beato demonstrates the passage you will be hearing the theme as phrygian NOT aeolian. G is b2 or b9 interval. If you repeat the exercise I described with G# instead you will hear the major 2nd or the minor 9th interval and THAT sound would provide the aeolian sound.

What I got is:
G (b2) and G# (2) as a drone or a vamp, the tune turns out to be in F# Phrygian and F# Aeolian respectively.
Why do you choose b2 and 2 as a drone?

As for the Phrygian modes, I don't know if it's correct or not, it's the b2 and the whole tone intervall between b6 and b7 that give the Phrygian modes that oriental sound. That's why you chose b2 as a drone?
With this logic in mind, one could have utilised the whole tone interval as well?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2020 12:16:28
 
Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

What is the difference between a vamp and a backing track and also the difference between a vamp and a modal vamp?


Backing track is prerecorded music. Can be anything pre recorded that a hopefully live musician or singer will perform along with.

Vamp and modal vamp are the same thing. Vamping is the verb associated with that section of music. It could mean laying the rhythm, holding a chord or bass note, or improvising melodies. “Look at me I’m vamping!”... and I would be doing one of those activities.

quote:

What makes a vamp to be a vamp?

A section of music with a static or none progressing harmony, usually using only one mode or scale. You can mix different scales and color with chromatics when improvising if you understand how. This section needs to happen for a relative long duration. Relative to the song as a whole. The song I pointed out earlier of Mclaughlin touches on the vamp section briefly, then gets back into it for a long time so both players can improvise as long as they feel like.

Note that when exiting the vamp section back into the other parts of the song, the vamp sort of does “resolve”. It does not have to is the main point. Many songs use vamps to fade out for example.

quote:

What I got is:
G (b2) and G# (2) as a drone or a vamp, the tune turns out to be in F# Phrygian and F# Aeolian respectively.
Why do you choose b2 and 2 as a drone?

As for the Phrygian modes, I don't know if it's correct or not, it's the b2 and the whole tone intervall between b6 and b7 that give the Phrygian modes that oriental sound. That's why you chose b2 as a drone?
With this logic in mind, one could have utilised the whole tone interval as well?


Wow, NO Amigo. I never said drone on anything at all. I said play or sing a single freaking note while the song is playing. That is so you hear a more complete scale than was presented by the example. The missing note proves the example need not be considered aeolian. What’s important about modes is that a specific and complete 7 note scale is implied by the notes of a melody heard against a drone, bass note, single chord, or vamp of 2 or more chords. If you can go back and understand what I was saying about Halloween song, I chose the G note, because it borders on what is needed to complete the scale, complete the info when coupled with all the notes we had in the example. If I chose E as a note, it doesn’t change what Beato said about it. If I chose B it wouldn’t change anything. But the G or G# DOES make a huge difference. Learn the circle of 5ths to understand why that is.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 4 2020 19:03:48
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 148
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RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I chose the G note, because it borders on what is needed to complete the scale, complete the info when coupled with all the notes we had in the example. If I chose E as a note, it doesn’t change what Beato said about it. If I chose B it wouldn’t change anything. But the G or G# DOES make a huge difference.

Ok I got it. I just compared the 2 scales with each other. Both share same notes except G and G#.

quote:

What you need to hear is also the minor 9th (As opposed to b9 or b2nd, sing or play G natural during that riff to prove it to your ear) in addition to the b6 to establish aeolian sound.

A little confusion because of minor 9th (G#) and b9, which is G. I thought minor 9th were b9. So both are G. And G# would be 9.

I try to understand the concept of modal music. You wrote Beat it by MJ is modal. I wonder in what key is this song or in general modal music notated in sheet music?

quote:

If you played happy birthday melody for example using the typical chords, C-G, G7-C, C7-F, Fm-C-G7-C....you would say that it’s in the key of C major. If you then play happy birthday over top of an F major chord only and never change it, then you can say the melody is the LYDIAN MODE.

I quote above your post from the page 1.
My conclusion is this single chord F major is a vamp. I play Happy Birthday melody over this vamp. The melody is obviously in the key of C major, and thus has phrases with melodic resolution G->C etc.
What makes a song modal is the vamp. Melodic lines or solos played over this vamp can be both tonal and modal. Any song with a vamp is modal. Correct me pls if my conclusion is wrong.

If I'm not mistaken, the following song has a vamp 0:00-1:40 and 2:15-2:54. The vamp fades away. This song must be modal.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 5 2020 16:29:39
 
Ricardo

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Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

Yes!!! The whole song you posted is D Dorian until that one spot on G minor (the horns play Bb-G phrase) which is also thought of as G Dorian. Anyway good example. Beat it is E aeolian.

About intervals, minor second vs major 2nd. When numbers below 7 are talked about it’s usually about scale tones. When you go up to 9th intervals or higher, they imply a 7th chord below them. For example a C major 9 chord and a C minor 9 chord, the 9th is the same note D. But if I refer to the minor 9 as a D note, it implies that below that note pitch wise should exist or imply to exist Bb, G, Eb, and C. Because D is a 9th in a C major chord as well, a Db is necessarily described as a “flat 9th” interval, below it is implied again the Bb, G, and some sort of E (can be either E or Eb) and C. I tried to clarify this in my first post about Halloween by describing the same note in two ways (G# being a major 2nd or minor 9th, G being minor 2nd or b9).

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 6 2020 11:27:12
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to El Burdo

quote:

My question - do many falsetas for Soleá, Siguiriyas etc. omit the minor 3rd and allow that enormous m3rd leap? (e.g. E F G#A....) It sounds far more Arabic and I would have expected to hear it more often.

Yes, you're right. Let's put the theory aside and let our ear judge what sounds more arabic and oriental, almost any scale with minor 3rd interval sounds arabic and oriental to me.
E harmonic minor scale has this minor3rd leap between b6 (C) and 7 (D#) scale degree.
This makes harmonic minor scale sound arabic and oriental. Phrygian dominant scale has also this minor 3rd interval as you pointed out.

If we want more arabic and oriental sound, we can raise the 4th scale degree of harmonic minor scale and get the so called Gypsy minor scale (also Hungarian minor scale).
This scale has even 2 enormous minor 3rd leaps between b6 & 7 and b3 & #4. Also 4 semitone intervals.

E Gypsy minor scale
1 2, b3 #4 5 b6 7
E F# G A# B C, D#

Interesting fact is 5th mode of Gypsy minor scale is called Arabic mode. However, the roman numeral analysis or functional harmony analysis for these scales and modes such as Gypsy minor scale or Arabic mode makes little sense. We have to see these scales more like as linear and oriental melodic lines.

But my question is can we describe the arabic and oriental sound as flamenco? My ear tells me yes. What do you guys think?

Are there any flamenco forms or solo flamenco compositions using falsetas based on this kind of scales? Or is it spanishy fakemenco stuff we have here?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2020 12:34:24
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

But my question is can we describe the arabic and oriental sound as flamenco? My ear tells me yes. What do you guys think?


Back on page 7 Kitarist posted a paper by Andrew Milne. My comments about it are several posts below that. The scale is discussed and called “double harmonic major”.

Again, of course it appears in Flamenco but it is wrong to view the music as based on single scales. The scales always mix, period, which has been my point this entire thread.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2020 15:09:00
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

The double harmonic major also justifies the “II7-I” cadence, even though it doesn’t account for the larger scope of the Harmonic practices.

Could you pls elaborate more on this? Double harmonic major scale is indeed Arabic mode or Gypsy major scale.

You delivered the theoretical framework for phrygian flamenco forms - Aug6th chords. Could you show me the possible fingerings for the tonic chords and F7#11 and Bb7#11 with the 5th note C and F respectively in both por Arriba and por Medio?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2020 17:44:50
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11366
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RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Could you pls elaborate more on this?


The scale (por Arriba) contains both the tonic (E) and the F7#11 chord (FACD#B).. but does NOT have the other chords needed in the form such as D minor, G7, C major etc. again the form is not based on any one scale!!!

Too many voicings for F7#11 (last is 9th version)

Xx587
01408
22488
11377
32388
11xx 8etc

More often moving notes in the voicing can imply the full chord.

Bb7#11
0x
35
13
33
15
X4

Or with 9th is common
0
1
1
0
1
1

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 11 2020 19:22:27
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2707
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

the form is not based on any one scale


A few thoughts and questions I have been thinking about re this thread lately:

Is the form based on any scale or scales? Is the cante based on all these multiple scales including melodic minor, double harmonic etc.?

Chords like dominant 7 flat 5 are surely more "modern" developments in the guitar, so can the forms be said to be based on scales, or notes which belong to scales, which have been introduced more recently?

I understand theory as describing practise, and as a naming system for communicating that practise. Looking over some old transcriptions, most of the guitar falsetas were pretty much basic phrygian scale with phrygian dominant scale implied in the cierres/remates and often leading from them (ie. beginning of next compas) or to them (ie. end of compas).

But I don't know how much those guitarists where thinking in terms of even those scales, let alone anything more esoteric. Other notes seem like accidentals used as substitution for variation (eg. first time B natural, second time B flat), which may be "described" by using names of other scales, but don't seem to me to be actually using those scales.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2020 14:07:21
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11366
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

Is the form based on any scale or scales? Is the cante based on all these multiple scales including melodic minor, double harmonic etc.?


As I said many times, the forms are based on keys not scales. The minor key is not one scale. The chords are described as derived from 3 types of minor scales, Flamenco same deal. Accidentals and any and all scales can come into play in the same manner they do in minor keys.

quote:

Chords like dominant 7 flat 5 are surely more "modern" developments in the guitar,


Not necessarily. In por medio forms a Gb7b5 might be considered “modern”, however a Bb7b5 would NOT be modern. You need context.

quote:

most of the guitar falsetas were pretty much basic phrygian scale with phrygian dominant scale implied in the cierres/remates and often leading from them (ie. beginning of next compas) or to them (ie. end of compas).


If you go hunting for specific scales in falsetas new or old, you will find them. Again, the point is rhythm and harmony. Your basic Phrygian scale is most often the lydian scale of the II chord in context, pulling or begging the resolution to tonic. Again in tonal music we can do away with simple mode concepts for the bigger picture of being in a key.

quote:

But I don't know how much those guitarists where thinking in terms of even those scales, let alone anything more esoteric. Other notes seem like accidentals used as substitution for variation (eg. first time B natural, second time B flat), which may be "described" by using names of other scales, but don't seem to me to be actually using those scales.


Flamenco has its own discipline. They understand form compas cante tonos remates etc etc. a scale is more about PICADO than theory application.

Accidentals most often imply secondary dominant harmony, unless it’s straight chromatic. DC#DCBCBbAG#A is a typical por medio line that implies A7-Dm-G7-C-Bb7-A. Basically a tonal progression is implied moving away and back to tonic.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 12 2020 16:55:36
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2707
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

the forms are based on keys
so back in the mythical oral history hermetic phase of flamenco when cante was created from whatever melting pot of cultures etc. etc. and without any guitar accompaniment (and so no harmony) they were in a key? Or is all that a load of mythical nonsense.... and if so what is the actual truth of the formation, creation and development of cante?

quote:

however a Bb7b5 would NOT be modern
just wondering what is the earliest occurrence of this type of chord? I don't recall hearing or seeing any in the Rito Y Geo films, at least not from the older generation guitarists, but I'm ready to look and listen again.

quote:

If you go hunting for specific scales in falsetas new or old, you will find them.
I haven't looked for specific scales at all. I actually did this when the most recent Romerito/Kevin octatonic cultural historical farce was going on, and what i did was I took out an old copy of Duende Flamenco 1A transcriptions of Montoya, Melchor por Soleá etc. and looked through for accidentals to see what was actually there.

quote:

Flamenco has its own discipline. They understand form compas cante tonos remates etc etc.
Exactly, that's why I'm questioning the "based on" scales idea, and the "implies... [harmony]"

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2020 11:36:19
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11366
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

so back in the mythical oral history hermetic phase of flamenco when cante was created from whatever melting pot of cultures etc. etc. and without any guitar accompaniment (and so no harmony) they were in a key? Or is all that a load of mythical nonsense.... and if so what is the actual truth of the formation, creation and development of cante?


It’s impossible to know for sure in an objective way before the recordings were done because cante was not written down. For sure when the first wax cylinders were made, the forms were well established with the guitar doing cambios and such. Singers developed their melodies at work with no guitar, but for sure they heard harmony at church and in other folk music so it’s anybody’s guess which chords were inside the head when those guys constructed their melodies. Review my post about evolution of cartageneras and malaguena Del mellizo to see specifics of how guitar accompaniment has changed the harmony a bit and you can extrapolate that back in time I think.

The way I hear it is that the tona->siguiriyas tends to sound Arabic ie modal based, where as Romances->solea tango buleria etc are more harmonic based, ie in a key. The huge assumption of course that their interpretations are authentic (Romances from 1500s supposedly, you can hear cambios but who knows if the guitar didn’t influence that sound on the ears of the first Cantaores that recorded them). Siguiriyas these days have adapted harmonic moves similar to the solea family. Fandangos of course is harmonic, deriving from baroque harmonic practices. Once again thanks for pointing me to that bach chorale that shows a clear model for what happens, say, in solea. I have not yet encountered the blue print for fandango form yet, but I’m sure it exists in a similar non spectacular nook and cranny of some baroque/classical era church song or folk song.

quote:

just wondering what is the earliest occurrence of this type of chord? I don't recall hearing or seeing any in the Rito Y Geo films, at least not from the older generation guitarists, but I'm ready to look and listen again.
. I posted examples of montoya using F7 and Bb7 earlier in this thread. If you think about the trad walk up (F-G-G#) or down (Bb-A-G#) por medio (7-10 compas) where you encounter this chord arpegio or whatever:

——-0—————-
————3————
—————-3———
—————————-
—————————0–
-4————————-

The omission of the F or the 5th means the E note can be seen as flat 5 instead of #11. [In fact, the dominant 7 b5 chord is most often a misspelled #11 in any music context you might find it. For example C7-F maj the Gb7b5 is a tritone sub for C7. In jazz context, they employ Gb lydian dom or C super loc. Super loc is all flats but C. That means the C is not a flat 5, it’s #4 or #11.]

The more conventional voicing of Bb7b5 is:

x
3
1
2
1
X

Found in Impetu by Escudero but I will look for older examples if you really really feel it’s important to pin down. My point is when you come to terms with the fact it’s the same chord as Bb7#11 it no longer seems so exotic and modern in context. Indeed it’s the same tritone sub that justifies the phrygian keys in general. (Aug 6 chords being tritone subs for V-I rather than subs for the classical ii-V).

quote:

and looked through for accidentals to see what was actually there.


I did the same with montoya and there jumped out at me the diminished scale example I showed.

EDIT: I realize I’ve overlooked one important aspect. The Bb7#11 chord and associated scale in inversion becomes E7b5. This chord when spelled with G# instead of Ab actually derives from that double harmonic major scale (Arabic or the phrygian dominant with raised 7th) and is a legit spelling and usage in Flamenco. I normally think of it as the Bb-A cadence in inversion but it’s actually the proper V-I in Flamenco forms and yet another way to legitimize the phrygian key cadence. Again we see it used in Impetu but I would like to hunt for older examples. Most often we see the weak Em7b5 progress to E7b5 by raising the G to G# giving a strong resolution to A tonic. The name game changes when we use F in the voicing instead of E such as Gm7-Bb7/Ab-A. That common por medio cadence is doing the same type of thing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2020 13:35:29
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 148
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

a scale is more about PICADO than theory application.

Finally, someone mentioned picado. For opening this thread my question was directed to the application of scales not only for falsetas but also for picado (see my 1st post of this thread).

So far the whole discussion has been centered around the use of scales in falseta or flamenco forms. But how about picado?
For example, if I want to play picado in por arribo, which scales are potential candidates?
E phrygian, E phrygian dominant, E harmonic minor, E major, E maj/min pentatonic, E half-whole tone or even E chromatic scale?
Or a mixture of different scales such that we end up using a weird scale with lots of semitone or minor 3rd intervals?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2020 17:39:35
 
mt1007

Posts: 73
Joined: Jan. 19 2011
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

a scale is more about PICADO than theory application.

Finally, someone mentioned picado. For opening this thread my question was directed to the application of scales not only for falsetas but also for picado (see my 1st post of this thread).

So far the whole discussion has been centered around the use of scales in falseta or flamenco forms. But how about picado?
For example, if I want to play picado in por arribo, which scales are potential candidates?
E phrygian, E phrygian dominant, E harmonic minor, E major, E maj/min pentatonic, E half-whole tone or even E chromatic scale?
Or a mixture of different scales such that we end up using a weird scale with lots of semitone or minor 3rd intervals?



what do mean finally? people replied about picado in the beginning of your thread
quote:

Devilhand,

The natural minor is part of the major scale. Learning the major scale and all its modes is a huge task and will take time to learn especially if you want to be able to improvise. You got scale positions studies, interval studies, arpeggio studies, etc.. Which can be applied to the major scale and all its modes. I would also do the same with the harmonic minor scale and melodic minor scale. Apart from all the studies I mentioned you can also create your own picado studies when working on these scales. So not only will you be learning the major scale, etc.. You can work on your picado at the same time as well. Learning these scales however simple or exotic they are doesn't mean you will sound flamenco, jazz, etc.. It all comes down to how you use them, what context you apply them in. The knowledge you gain will be applicable to all music, not only flamenco, jazz, etc...


You can use all the scales you mentioned, but more important is in what context? You can mix them too. If you just want to work on scales, record a backing track in what ever tono and practice your scales against your backing track.

peace out...
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2020 18:07:17
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11366
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Or a mixture of different scales such that we end up using a weird scale with lots of semitone or minor 3rd intervals?


I pointed out the sabicas falseta that was basically a long PICADO on page 1. It is not any single scale, it used chromatics and more so was a timely and perfect example that proved my point at that moment. At this point you seem to be rehashing points already addressed here. Please take time to review and ask for clarity, but try not to simply restate your same questions. I feel like a broken record that few are paying attention to.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 13 2020 21:20:35
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