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kitarist

Posts: 848
Joined: Dec. 4 2012
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Piwin

quote:

Scale degree isn't the right concept for this.


I think the concept of scale degrees is fine, but the problem is that he is taking its specific application within a major scale context and treating it as if the "7 pulls to 8" etc. is some sort of general rule - it isn't. In flamenco tonality, it is the IInd scale degree which is just a semitone up from the tonic, not the 7th as it is in major, so it is degree II acting as a 'leading tone' in flamenco.

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Konstantin
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2019 19:33:35
 
Piwin

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to kitarist

quote:

is some sort of general rule - it isn't


yes, agreed.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 5 2019 19:39:04
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11765
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

Elementary music theory says that any scale degree tends to resolve upwards and downwards. We all know 1 and 8 are the home notes/chords. 5 leaves us hanging. The 7th scale degree (leading tone) wants to resolve upwards to 8.

Now the 4, which is relevant for derivation of Andalusian cadence. 4th scale degree has a strong tendency to resolve down.

E Phrygian E F G A B C D E. Which is our 4? The rest is simple. Is this a simple explanation of the origin of Andalusian cadence? Any thoughts?


You mean 4 pulls to 3... yes. In context of Ionian this is the basis of tonal harmony. The tritone B and F resolve to C and E. One up one down. G note connects the two chords. Cadencing V-I is weaker than V7-I.

When you alter V (g minor chord becomes G major) in C Aeolian you have Changed Bb to B natural to achieve this but F goes to Eb necessarily. G also connects both. Cadencing V-i is weaker than V7-i.

In C phrygian you don’t have this in Db (II) so if you alter it as well to Db7, then once again you achieve resolution through the Cb... it’s why you respell Db7 with a B natural instead of the Cb, and you achieve the same resolution of tritone that the other two “keys” make use of... and doing this is what I described earlier as AUG6 harmonic practice. You add the G (#11) you can still connect both chords... it’s also called “French6”. Again cadencing II-I is simply weaker than II7-I.

The end.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2019 2:20:29
 
Piwin

Posts: 2730
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RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

it’s also called “French6”

You mean gallic hexaphrygian?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2019 12:41:19
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11765
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Piwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Piwin

quote:

it’s also called “French6”

You mean gallic hexaphrygian?


Waterloodianmixeduplydian

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2019 14:16:19
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 476
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Again cadencing II-I is simply weaker than II7-I.

A typo? Because the first chord in C Phrygian would be Cm. In roman numerals, it's i, not I? So it must be II7-i.

The 1st and 2nd chord of C Phrygian scale is Cm and Dbm. Am I right?
So we have to change Dbm to Db or better Dbm7 (Db Fb Ab Cb) to Db7 (Db F Ab B) in order to get the tritonus B and F resolving to C and Eb?

quote:

You add the G (#11) you can still connect both chords

G is added to Db7? We'll get Db7(#11) resolving to Cm because Db7(#11) and Cm are connected with G?

II7(#11) -> i , which is stronger than II(#11) -> i

That's what I understood. Plz correct me if I'm wrong.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2019 17:25:29
 
mark indigo

 

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[Deleted] 

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Dec. 6 2019 17:52:13
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2019 17:48:11
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 476
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

A typo? Because the first chord in C Phrygian would be Cm. In roman numerals, it's i, not I? So it must be II7-i.




maybe read the thread from the beginning?


OK OK I guess it must be Cmaj. My mistake. I'm gonna correct it. I mixed up C Phrygian with C Aeolian. It's still Cm in C Phrygian from the perspective of western music. Phrygian is a minor mode. But in flamenco, we have a raised 3rd making Cm Cmaj.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 6 2019 17:55:21
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

ORIGINAL: devilhand

quote:

Again cadencing II-I is simply weaker than II7-I.

A typo? Because the first chord in C Phrygian would be Cm. In roman numerals, it's i, not I? So it must be II7-i.

The 1st and 2nd chord of C Phrygian scale is Cm and Dbm. Am I right?
So we have to change Dbm to Db or better Dbm7 (Db Fb Ab Cb) to Db7 (Db F Ab B) in order to get the tritonus B and F resolving to C and Eb?

quote:

You add the G (#11) you can still connect both chords

G is added to Db7? We'll get Db7(#11) resolving to Cm because Db7(#11) and Cm are connected with G?

II7(#11) -> i , which is stronger than II(#11) -> i

That's what I understood. Plz correct me if I'm wrong.


Sounds like you got it figured out already... correct on everything except yes you are basing your chord scale on the natural mode instead of the “in the key of” concept. You can think of the C maj alteration in two “classical” ways. The first is the Picardy third... we change the minor tonic to major for the sake of finality.... it’s just that in flamenco we do this much more often than in a typical minor key. This is more how I think of it personally. However when the minor i is actually used in flamenco it is more often part of a secondary dominant type sequence... for example vii-i-II...is more a modal type move intended to have a lydian sound or emphasize the II harmony (as opposed to pulling II via V7/II->II) OR, viewed as part of the relative major depending (ii/VI-iii/VI-IV/VI, with intent to pull to key of VI eventually). All are quite rare in traditional flamenco.

The second way is to view the alteration as similar or identical to the one that must be done in F minor...c is the V chord and must be altered in minor keys. The problem is that it begs too many people to assign the chord scale to Phrygian dominant instead of the natural phrygian, and further it gives the wrong idea about flamenco actually being simply in the minor key that has no resolution but rather always hangs on the V.

There is a third view and that is the C major chord is NOT an alteration at all, it’s just that the entire chord scale other than I is altered from Ionian. Yes... lots of accidentals against the key signature but it is not “incorrect” in my view because it keeps the tonic clear and grounded, and allows for logical parallel key modulation that occurs often in flamenco forms. Most often this is done in the tradition in por medio or por Arriba, not so much in the other guitar tonalities because they are all fandango based forms. Modern guitar is a different story of course.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2019 17:05:35
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2960
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

OK OK I guess it must be Cmaj. My mistake. I'm gonna correct it.
sorry, I deleted my post cos i thought i was being a bit harsh, but you were too fast and replied already...

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2019 17:44:25
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

Mr Marlow, before I study your last post I want to clarify something from your last post.

quote:

you achieve the same resolution of tritone that the other two “keys” make use of... and doing this is what I described earlier as AUG6 harmonic practice.

The other 2 keys you mentioned above are Cmaj and Cminor?

quote:

You add the G (#11) you can still connect both chords... it’s also called “French6”.

Is adding #11 optional or do we have to add #11 to make the resolution to I happen?

A little confusion with both terms there. Do AUG6 and French6 say the same?

@mark indigo
You're a nice person. I have zero problem with your last comment you deleted.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2019 17:55:25
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

The other 2 keys you mentioned above are Cmaj and Cminor?

Correct.

quote:

Is adding #11 optional or do we have to add #11 to make the resolution to I happen?

Yes optional, not to make it “happen” but it makes it stronger and more akin to what happens in V7-I of the major key.



quote:

A little confusion with both terms there. Do AUG6 and French6 say the same?


Aug(mented)6 refers to a specific harmonic description used in classical analysis. Of these, three types are defined as Italian French and German, please review the Rick Beato video on the subject and my comments about it on page 1.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 7 2019 18:22:18
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

Thanks for your effort. I'll study the Beato video and come back with questions if needed.

quote:

In context of Ionian this is the basis of tonal harmony.

The book says any scale degree of a scale.
I thought it was a general rule and can be applied to any scale and modes. For example, the existence of melodic minor is the consquence of this. Any dominant chord V leaves us hanging no matter what scale and mode we're dealing with.

Strictly speaking, 5 resolves to 8 rather than to 1. I'm not sure if it's valid within the context of functional harmony. Melodically, it makes more sense to let 5 resolve to 8. Any thoughts?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2019 17:31:04
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

The book says any scale degree of a scale.
I thought it was a general rule and can be applied to any scale and modes. For example, the existence of melodic minor is the consquence of this.


Probably the book is assuming you know that the other “scales” they refer to are altered from Aeolian BECAUSE they want harmony to function as smoothly as it does in Ionian. In other words the minor scales mimic Ionian when we want that type of harmonic function. In Aeolian the 4 and 7 degrees are perfect 4th and don’t beg to resolve in any special direction. We alter 7 that it has the type of tritone Ionian has that needs to resolve. Only after alterations does your “rule” apply. Other modes don’t resolve anywhere, in fact the tritone colors the modes and is a required tension in context.

quote:

Any dominant chord V leaves us hanging no matter what scale and mode we're dealing with.


In classical theory context yes. Enter exotic music like blues or flamenco and we have to accept the finality of the tonic chord that has a “dominant” SOUND, as opposed to a dominant FUNCTION. A flamenco palo need not conclude with only a simple stable triad voicing. This is problematic for people that hold fast to your “rule”. Their ears often can’t accept the finality of these chords.

quote:

Strictly speaking, 5 resolves to 8 rather than to 1. I'm not sure if it's valid within the context of functional harmony. Melodically, it makes more sense to let 5 resolve to 8. Any thoughts?


Not sure what you mean here. Scale degrees inside a harmonic move? V-I? Melodic minor? Moving up a 4th vs down a 5th? No clue what you mean. 8 is a meaningless scale degree in tonal harmony.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 8 2019 19:21:26
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 476
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RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Not sure what you mean here. Scale degrees inside a harmonic move? V-I? Melodic minor? Moving up a 4th vs down a 5th? No clue what you mean. 8 is a meaningless scale degree in tonal harmony.


What I meant was that the 5th scale degree (G note) resolves upwards to the octave (8 or C') instead of resolving downwards to 1 (C).

Sorry for the confusion. Thinking of it in terms of functional harmony doesn't make sense. I thought something like scale degrees inside a harmonic move.

quote:

The por Arriba move is demonstrated at 18:50...again he does the German move that sometimes suspends the resolution with the I6-4 that we can think of as like an E sus 4 type chord in Solea resolving to G# with E bass note ringing, which is rare BECAUSE it sounds too classical. But the German voicing is typical in flamenco, we can add what he called the Flat 5 for the French chord, however it is truly #11 and I WISH he said that in his examples as well. And AGAIN, get your Axe and chop off the Aminor chord ending we DON”T NEED.


These augmented 6th chords are IV chords resolving to V. However, Ger+6 resolves in the following manner IV-I6/4-V-i. Since we don't need i (Am) as a final chord in flamenco, the Andalusian cadence goes like IV-I6/4-V (F-G-E). This means Ger+6 chord must be our F major chord. I6/4 is our G major. Right?

Beato video shows Ger+6 chord is FACD#, which is a subdominant chord IV of Am scale. IV must be Dm or Dm7. However, it looks like our F major chord. But D#?
The I6/4 chord is E A C (E/Am), which is not G major we're looking for.

Do we have to add #11 to which chord? What is our #11 in this case? What is French+6 doing there?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 9 2019 18:12:53
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

What I meant was that the 5th scale degree (G note) resolves upwards to the octave (8 or C') instead of resolving downwards to 1 (C).

Sorry for the confusion. Thinking of it in terms of functional harmony doesn't make sense. I thought something like scale degrees inside a harmonic move.


Ok, in that case the G note typically holds its place and bridges both chords together....typically. Hence V-I is a stronger cadence than IV to I or viidim-I, because the G note connection. So when it occurs as the #11 in a II7-I Flamenco cadence, the note holds over the same way as V-I in major, and therefore adds strength to the cadence.

quote:

These augmented 6th chords are IV chords resolving to V. However, Ger+6 resolves in the following manner IV-I6/4-V-i. Since we don't need i (Am) as a final chord in flamenco, the Andalusian cadence goes like IV-I6/4-V (F-G-E). This means Ger+6 chord must be our F major chord. I6/4 is our G major. Right?


No, they are NOT IV chords... they are spelled from #4 but it is a miss spelling for the sake of VOICE LEADING. They are really bVI chords having dominant function or sound. That is why the “always in first inversion” rule is so silly, they are truly root position bVI7 chords.

German6 does NOT always have that I-6-4 (not G chord it would be Am/E) before the V. Often they go straight to V as well. The idea was avoiding parallel 5ths... something in Flamenco we actually embrace. It’s a very classical sound we don’t use in Flamenco, however I point out that the I-6-4 sound in Flamenco is akin to when we play an Esus4 chord before resolving the 4 A note to G#.

The german6 is the F7 chord. The French would be the F7#11, the sharp 11 being the B note such as open B string that hangs over into the E chord resolution. To be a proper French chord, we must avoid the C note in the chord voicing (again avoiding parallel 5ths). Italian 6 is for example the one I pointed out played by montoya in solea or malagueña where the voicing is F7 but again no C note (F-A-D#).

Since in Flamenco we have several voicing types for our II7-I used often, I propose a new flavor and practice be included into the family of European Aug6 chords called “Spanish 6”. Makes sense to me anyway.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 9 2019 19:13:15
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 2960
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: UK

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Since in Flamenco we have several voicing types for our II7-I used often, I propose a new flavor and practice be included into the family of European Aug6 chords called “Spanish 6”. Makes sense to me anyway.
When is your book coming out? Just please don't delete all your posts prior to publication!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 10 2019 10:59:47
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

They are really bIV chords having dominant function or sound.

Pls correct bIV because it makes me insane.

quote:

German6 does NOT always have that I-6-4 (not G chord it would be Am/E) before the V. Often they go straight to V as well. The idea was avoiding parallel 5ths... something in Flamenco we actually embrace. It’s a very classical sound we don’t use in Flamenco, however I point out that the I-6-4 sound in Flamenco is akin to when we play an Esus4 chord before resolving the 4 A note to G#.

Ok. Got it. I6/4 is Esus4. The resolution goes like this bVI7-I6/4-V7. That means F7-Esus4-E7. Here you applied the so called 4-3 suspension to Esus4-E7. We can ignore I6/4 though. bVI7-V7 is the shortcut.

quote:

To be a proper French chord, we must avoid the C note in the chord voicing (again avoiding parallel 5ths).

As for avoiding paralell 5th (omitting 5th in augmented 6th chords), why do you have to bring this parallel 5th concpet in it? The 4 or more note chords usually don't include 5th note anyway. The 5th adds soundwise nothing to the color of the chord meaning that it's redundant.

quote:

Italian 6 is for example the one I pointed out played by montoya in solea or malagueña where the voicing is F7 but again no C note (F-A-D#).

Italian6th and German6th chords are the same here, right? Both are F7. Is it always like this or is it a coincidence?

quote:

we can call those other ones that add the 5th (F) or the third inversion (G# bass note instead of Bb) etc as SPANISH 6th chords.

In por medio, German6th is (Bb D Ab) with no 5th. French6th chord is bVI7(#11) again with no 5th, which is (Bb D E Ab). How do you generate Spanish6th?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 10 2019 11:37:57
 
Ricardo

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From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Pls correct bIV because it makes me insane.

Done sorry man 😐

quote:

As for avoiding paralell 5th (omitting 5th in augmented 6th chords), why do you have to bring this parallel 5th concpet in it?


You seem to miss the fact the German 6 contains the C note. F and C moving to E and B was a sound they avoided in the classical period so they would insert the I-6-4 chord to avoid the problem. The French and Italian so named chords omit the C note altogether and avoid the sound of parallel 5ths. In Flamenco we love that sound and use it often, so I feel many nerds will point out discrepancies regarding my description of the HARMONIC practice of using Aug6 chords as a way to communicate what’s going on with Flamenco. I am saying let’s expand the concept of what the AuG6 chords are doing harmonically so the analysis can embrace what we do in Flamenco specifically .... number one allowing the chord voicings to use parallel 5th movements, and number two using inversions that were not used in the classical period... inversions such as F7/A->E(b9)/G# or F/D#->E as just two examples.

I’m saying the entire practice of cadencing this way we can refer to as “spanish” because it’s all very specific to Flamenco, or composers influenced by Flamenco at least. The classical snobs in Europe that named these Aug6 chords had something against Spain perhaps? (That’s a joke but who knows considering how important the harmonic move is in Spain I have to wonder).

quote:

In por medio, German6th is (Bb D Ab) with no 5th. French6th chord is bVI7(#11) again with no 5th, which is (Bb D E Ab). How do you generate Spanish6th?


Again, sorry to sound redundant but to be clear German6 has F in the voicing... most often it’s trapped in such a way that parallel 5ths are gonna occur so they stick in Dm/A to avoid the sound. A spanish 6 could describe when we voice the chord and allow both the 5th F and the #11 E notes to be heard resolving with parallel 5ths letting E ring over .... perhaps even the 9th could be included in some versions, or the inversions I mentioned. Inversions won’t contain the AuG6 interval but all the same notes and function we are still dealing with. That’s why I say it’s an idea to expand on the well established harmonic practice.

Perhaps another important detail would be thinking of the spanish 6 as always the replacement for “II” in the phrygian chord scale vs in classical the other Aug6 chords appear as the replacement for VI in minor keys, or as the tritone sub for ii (or V7/V) in major keys.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 10 2019 14:33:39
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11765
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

quote:

Bach was inspired by Fischer to make his well tempered clavier which explores all major and minor keys...Fischer had an E phrygian prelude and fugue....Bach thought the idea was rubbish obviously and only carried on work in the two keys.


I vaguely remembered coming across at least one Chorale in Phrygian - seems there's a book on Bachs Modal Chorales, but I haven't read it:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bachs-Modal-Chorales-9-Harmonologia/dp/0945193742/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=9780945193746&linkCode=qs&qid=1575396134&s=books&sr=1-1

http://legacy.earlham.edu/~tobeyfo/musictheory/Book2/FFH2_CH4/4B_BachChorales2.html


This stuck in my mind and finally got around to investigating. Of the “modal” chorales by Js. Bach I could find, most are simply in major or minor keys however he was working from a hymnal that had some wrong key signatures so he just used the ones in his book and added accidentals in his score. Most of the Dorian ones were just minor where he adds in the flat 6 unless it modulates. There was a “Bb lydian” one that was just in Bb major and later modulates to D minor, but goes back to Bb, so he is writing all the Eb’s in.

There was one cool one in “G mixolyian” that is actually mostly G major with F# written in, modulation to D major and back, but at the end is a bizarre cadence that goes like Dm7-Em7(b9)-C/D-C-C/G-ends on a G triad. Very weird Gregorian sounding ending with all these held over tensions.

There were three “phrygian” chorales. One in F# minor written with two sharps in the key sig. He always writes in the G#, and it modulates to B major, and there is a half cadence on C#. Zero phrygian stuff in there it’s just the wrong key sig.

There are two others that are interesting. First this one that has a serious Flamenco sounding thing in the 3rd to 4th measure and the conclusion...in both cases it’s like C-F-C7-Dm7-Emajor. Those parallel 4ths (top voices at conclusion) really sound flamenco lol! But also I notice 5ths D/A->E/B however he avoided the parallel sound but putting the B up in the Alto part.



Guitar equivalent of that conclusion:

-1—-———-1—————-0—
-1–1———-1——1———0–
-2–0——3—2-4——4-2–1–
-3–3—2——0—————-2–
-3–3———————————-
-1————————————-

Could work for solea from 6...6-7 &ah 8 &ah 9 & 10.

The other one is not so flamenco sounding, nor is it so final sounding, but he sticks a similar C-Dm-E thing in the middle. I would say both of these are looked at by theorists as in A minor, and both pieces are using a “half cadence” on the V chord.

Opening piece till 3:38 and then the ending at 15:38 (again 4th to 5th bar has C-F-Cmaj7-Dm7-E)



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 11 2019 15:44:44
 
devilhand

 

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

A spanish 6 could describe when we voice the chord and allow both the 5th F and the #11 E notes to be heard resolving with parallel 5ths letting E ring over .... perhaps even the 9th could be included in some versions, or the inversions I mentioned. Inversions won’t contain the AuG6 interval but all the same notes and function we are still dealing with. That’s why I say it’s an idea to expand on the well established harmonic practice.

In por medio, Spanish6th would be Bb7(#11) (Bb D E F G#)?
This resolves to A7(b9) (A Bb C# E G).

Which notes cause here the parallel 5ths? I couldn't see perfect 5th interval in Bb7(#11) and A(b9).
Do you mean Bb and F resolve to A and E?

quote:

Perhaps another important detail would be thinking of the spanish 6 as always the replacement for “II” in the phrygian chord scale

For example, in por medio and arriba, which chords would be II in what phrygian scale?

quote:

in classical the other Aug6 chords appear as the replacement for VI in minor keys

F7 and Bb7 replace which minor chords?

quote:

as the tritone sub for ii (or V7/V) in major keys.

I need to expand my music theory knowledge to fully understand this.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2019 16:34:41
 
chester

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RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

Here's what happened in this thread:

Poor noob want to know what scales he can use to make some cool fakemenco so he can impress the ladies.

Bunch of know-it-alls with an axe to grind get in a **** measuring contest.

Now OP is trying to wrap his mind around advanced concepts like scale degree alterations and chord substitution with made up terms like "spanish 6".

All this time they could've been practicing cool remates.

Everyone knows chicks dig funky jerez remates the most.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 12 2019 19:51:04
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11765
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Do you mean Bb and F resolve to A and E?


Correct.

quote:

For example, in por medio and arriba, which chords would be II in what phrygian scale?


In por medio A is I, Bb is II. In por Arriba E is I and F is II.

Remember it’s really a key and these are tonal functioning harmonic Roman numerals, not a single chord scale as in a single mode where all chords can be only one quality. Same like in the minor key. In “Flamenco key” II can be major 7 quality or dominant. III can be dominant or altered to raised root diminished 7. VI can be major 7 or augmented. Etc. maybe it’s good to first review harmonic analysis of basic minor key songs, because what’s happening in Flamenco is not much different.

quote:

F7 and B7 replace which minor chords?


No, in the key of A minor, the Aug6 chord replaces the VI chord, or F major. In D minor the Aug6 chord replaces Bb major. Those were Beato’s examples I pointed out.

quote:

I need to expand my music theory knowledge to fully understand this.


Very simple... in A major key (Key of A has 3 #’s.), if you want to tonicize the V chord E7, you use a secondary dominant (as opposed to modulation or changing keys). The dominant of E is B, however the B chord in A major is ii or a B minor chord. So we change the chord to B7 by changing D note to D#. When we do that, it is wrong to call it “II7”. So what is done is call it “V7/V”...pronounced “the five seven of five”. Because we are borrowing the dominant from the key of E (4 #’s). In the Key of A major, using an Aug6 chord is a secondary dominant, a substitute for the B7 or V7/V chord. Aug6 is spelled D#FA, sometime with C also. This is misspelled F7 chord...the tritone sub for the B7.

In D major same deal...the French 6 Beato shows is Bb7(#11)...the tritone sub for E7, or the V7/V...the V being the A dominant chord in key of D. Instead of going E7-A7-D, it’s French6-A7-D.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2019 3:21:23
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1796
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to chester

quote:

ORIGINAL: chester
All this time they could've been practicing cool remates.

Thanks Chester! I was wondering if I should read all 7 pages or not. Back to the remates it is then.

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tú ahora no me conoces.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2019 15:09:19
 
Piwin

Posts: 2730
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to chester

quote:

get in a **** measuring contest


Nah, I'd be way too embarrassed to do that when it's this cold out.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 13 2019 18:39:05
 
devilhand

 

Posts: 476
Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

Thanks for your explanation.

Is this Spanish6th chord a generic term for German6, French6 and Italian6th chords allowing parallel 5ths when resolving?

quote:

Aug6 is spelled D#FA, sometime with C also. This is misspelled F7 chord

Why is F7 misspelled? German6th or Italian6th are F7 with or without C.

quote:

In “Flamenco key” II can be major 7 quality or dominant. III can be dominant or altered to raised root diminished 7. VI can be major 7 or augmented. Etc. maybe it’s good to first review harmonic analysis of basic minor key songs, because what’s happening in Flamenco is not much different.

Harmonised Flamenco scale would be similar to harmonised Phrygian dominant scale. Which basic minor songs do you recomend?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2019 15:02:51
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11765
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Is this Spanish6th chord a generic term for German6, French6 and Italian6th chords allowing parallel 5ths when resolving?


No it’s a generic term for any similar harmonic move we use specifically in Flamenco music, parallel 5ths or not. In other words the rules that apply to the other Aug6 chords will necessarily change, because it’s not classical music. If it so happens we actually encountered say the French 6 in Flamenco, we can still think of the practice of “spanish6” usage as the bigger umbrella generic term that embraces all the classical Aug6 chords plus the special Flamenco case ones. Again the distinction can simply be the chord replaces the II chord in phrygian vs the VI in minor. It’s that simple.


quote:

Why is F7 misspelled? German6th or Italian6th are F7 with or without C.


A shame they don’t clarify the REASON for the misspelling in classical theory class... including Beato’s video. The reason is the Eb is changed to D# for the sake VOICE LEADING... meaning it looks better on paper for the sight singers to resolve a sung D# up to an E natural, than to see on paper the Eb resolving to E natural. The theorists then had to develop this Aug6 description of the practice rather than acknowledge a simple misspelling. So it’s mainly for separate part writing purposes... the composers knew the chord was just an F7 if played on piano of course. Hope that makes sense.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2019 17:46:37
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11765
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

Harmonised Flamenco scale would be similar to harmonised Phrygian dominant scale. Which basic minor songs do you recomend?


There is no Flamenco scale and it’s certainly not the phrygian dominant, that’s been the whole argument from the start.

Check any classical piece in the minor key because it’s different than how major keys work. There is no single minor key scale, there are several different ones. Notice how they describe the Roman numerals. The same stuff applies to Flamenco, but we must invent a new series of Roman numerals to distinguish the tonic. Most often classical guys think Flamenco is simply in the minor key, but this is incorrect.

Example of minor key (still trying to find a proper analysis of a minor key piece... surprisingly rare on youtube, they all have errors or bizarre amateur methods including below!):


This guy explains why minor key is different than major:


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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 14 2019 17:55:01
 
devilhand

 

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Joined: Oct. 15 2019
 

RE: Which scales? (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

Example of minor key (still trying to find a proper analysis of a minor key piece... surprisingly rare on youtube

This is a minor key piece. It's in A Aeolian mode. I wonder if it has Aug6th chords.



Do other 3 minor modes Dorian, Phrygian and Locrian belong to minor keys? I ask this because of 'modes have no tonal center' discussion.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2019 13:02:14
 
Ricardo

Posts: 11765
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Which scales? (in reply to devilhand

quote:

It's in A Aeolian mode.


Amigo, NO it is not!!!! The very second note tells it is not Aeolian mode. Yes it’s in the KEY of A minor. A Aeolian has no sharp or flats, no tonal function. Yes I think I heard Aug6 chord used in there somewhere.

quote:

Do other 3 minor modes Dorian, Phrygian and Locrian belong to minor keys? I ask this because of 'modes have no tonal center' discussion.


Tonal Keys are an organization of all the modes, their roles are downplayed in context of the bigger picture called “in the key of....”

Modes absolutely have “a tonal center”, that’s the entire point of them. Once you are in THAT tonal center, the idea is to not deviate from it. Once you do, then you are no longer “in that mode”. In tonal music you have accidentals that appear and allow the music to venture away from tonic harmonically and return. Even we can change keys, as the Mozart example shows, and this Beethoven. To use a mode say Dorian, in tonal music, it requires a lot of rhythmic time where the harmony happening is only the ii chord in major, or the iv chord in minor. Because if it is only for a few beats or a single measure, the modal sound is lost on the ear, it’s only a ii chord that is probably gonna go right to the V chord next.

In jazz the mode concept comes into play because of improvisation. You learn to ignore the “key” center and treat each chord, no matter how fast it changes, as a separate mode.

I find minor keys much more interesting, but since I can’t find anything better here is a decent analysis of Bach. The very bottom row of Roman numerals show what’s happening. The top is some BS hybrid of tools that has evolved no doubt by some jazz guitar players or something, it’s junk. The chord chart is fine. It’s in D major but modulates to B minor. The guy who did this is scared of secondary dominants for some reason , or lacks training, and brackets off e minor A major and G major as brief modulation. I consider that “wrong”, however it still follows logic of the system, and as I said the best I could find on this crappy internet.



Here is how secondary dominants are supposed to be done. He makes an error at 4:09 with the A minor Chord... it should be A major with C# but all the rest is correct... if the guy above applied this to Bach his analysis would be more correct.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Dec. 15 2019 14:31:45
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