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Elitism in the world of Flamenco
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to withinity)
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quote:
The Spanish have huge egos in General and so do the Gitanos especially towards Flamenco. (even rumba) Properly defined, there is nothing wrong with "Elitism." It is not a matter of what you are born into, or how much money your family has, or what clubs you belong to. Nor does it have anything to do with (the Spanish, Gitanos, or anyone else) having huge egos. Elitism is the sense of having truly accomplished something that took effort. It is the sense of having mastered a skill and obtained knowledge that is leagues ahead of and beyond that of the average person. One of my favorite writers is the late art and cultural critic Robert Hughes. I quote Hughes below on the subject. "I am completely an elitist, in the cultural but emphatically not the social sense. I prefer the good to the bad, the articulate to the mumbling, the aesthetically developed to the merely primitive, and full to partial consciousness. I love the spectacle of skill, whether it is an expert gardener at work, or a good carpenter chopping dovetails. I don't think stupid or ill-read people are as good to be with as wise and fully literate ones. I would rather watch a great tennis player than a mediocre one. "Consequently, most of the human race doesn't matter much to me, outside the normal and necessary frame of courtesy and the obligation to respect human rights. I see no reason to squirm around apologizing for this. I am, after all, a cultural critic, and my main job is to distinguish the good from the second-rate." That is as good a definition of "Elitism" as I have come across, and it applies to flamenco as well as anything else that requires effort to master rather than just reach the level of the second-rate. Bill
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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 20 2017 15:15:14
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Piwin
Posts: 3565
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
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RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to withinity)
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quote:
tending to forget your musical ability does not dictate your worth as a person. well yeah, definitely do not forget that! Paco Cepero described how harsh his "teachers" were with him when he was beginning in Jerez, oftentimes bringing him to tears. In hindsight he saw it as a sign that they cared and really wanted him to learn. My feeling is that the younger generations are less harsh. Whether that's a oood thing, I don't know. In a way, it's like the school system I went through in France. The philosophy there was to "deconstruct so as to better re-build" the child. So it's pretty rough on the children, you get smacked around quite a bit. I remember getting assignments back where I had got 18/20 (graded out of 20 points in France) but there were no mistakes anywhere. When I asked the teacher why I hadn't got 20/20, he would say: "because perfection doesn't exist". You really just couldn't win! It's pretty far from the contemporary idea of education you hear from some countries where you basically have to always be positive, not grade the child at all or reward him even if his work was sub-par. I suppose there are advantages and drawbacks to both approaches. Then there is also the very opinionated discussions on what is actually flamenco, with some pretty harsh judgements on certain artists. I think that has more to do with the desire to uphold a certain tradition and the fear, dissapointment, anger, etc. that many seem to be moving away from that tradition, sometimes even belittling it. Anyways, maybe these things contribute to your impression of "elitism in the world of Flamenco".
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Date Jun. 20 2017 16:28:09
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Jw
Posts: 112
Joined: Mar. 27 2011
From: Finland
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RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to Piwin)
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You got the point and I agree, also with that B.B. thing. But as you said I think you got my point that I'm voting for the "open-minded" views. I've worked in Classical music industry also and it gets me totally bored when they start to analyze "what would be the correct way to play Beethoven's piano sonatas". Usually the big stars do their own things and that's why they are timeless. We can easily take and example from flamenco: Paco de Lucia. First many of flamenco people thought that he is not flamenco anymore, when he started to compose own songs, but now we all know how people think about him. The background is important to know and learn (you can't get away from that), but never the less you are free to do different things, as I said. If you look carefully for example flamenco artist who does something completely different music or style you can still find "the flamenco" somewhere. Maybe playing style, dancers feet, singing style or how they use their voice etc. So I don't mean that there are no borders between music styles, I only mean that those are really thin lines when you start searching things. For example you compare flamenco to Indian music, Morocco's music, Middle east music, Caribbean music etc. and then you start comparing those styles to other styles and so on and so on. Who has taken what from each others. It's a really complex world and also rich, because everything affects to everyone somehow.
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Jw - Guitarra flamenca - Helsinki
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Date Jun. 21 2017 12:12:31
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Richard Jernigan
Posts: 3435
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA
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RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to Piwin)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Piwin In higher education, France has the Grandes Ecoles system, a fast-track way of getting into the best engineering schools. These are some of the smartest students in France but it is not uncommon in these schools to push the students so hard that average grades over the year are rarely over 10/20. A friend of mine finished his finals second of his cohort with only 6/20. The end game for them is not get a good grade as such, but to do better than the others. I've heard many expats complain about the French educational system. I think it clashes with the idea that many parents have of good parenting. During a 43-year career in engineering I was fortunate to work with some of the best educated engineers in the world. My perspective was formed by education as a mathematician and physicist, exposed in greater depth to these subjects than most engineers. In my last job I supervised a varied crew containing, among others, PhD graduates of Stanford, MIT, University of Southern California and other top U.S. engineering schools. I also worked extensively with PhD graduates of Cambridge, Kings College London, and other top U.K. institutions. Some won international prizes for papers they published, or for their overall body of work. One of my friends retired as Chief Scientific Officer of the U.K. Civil Service, another as Director of the Atomic Weapons Research Establishment at Aldermaston, and a third as Director of the Royal Radar Establishment. In contrast to the USA, many of the best engineers in the U.K. work for the Civil Service. But as a group, the PhD graduates of the Ecole Polytechnique were the best educated engineers I met. Many of them were military officers in the French Corps of Engineers. In the USA the Corps of Engineers are descended from the sappers, who dug tunnels undermining fortresses and built defensive earthworks. The French Corps of Engineers are descended from Napoleon's artillery, the most technologically advanced military unit of the 19th century. RNJ
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Date Jun. 21 2017 22:10:03
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estebanana
Posts: 9391
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
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RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to withinity)
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"My 5 year old can paint like de Kooning and Jackson Pollock." That is the only kind of elitism that bothers me. Grossly ignorant elitism. Everything else is not that important, really. But gross ignorance is dangerous when it gets into the realm of public policy. Reasonable ignorance is the state we all live in. What I mean by Ignorant Elitism, is that there's a strain of elitist behavior that goes around knocking down true elites, those who have attained mastery in some subject. Elites are a good thing because they hold a special knowledge of skill for the betterment of culture and society. There are those who try to manipulate that mastery into a pejorative offense move and play it as an "us vs. them" situation. That is dangerous because it undermines true elites who have made important accomplishments, who's opinions should be heard and not jammed. Everyday back and forth conversations about cultural value, aesthetic value, names or confusion between names and definitions of cultures, and that stuff is usually healthy. Elitism comes up now and then, but like Ricardo said, real authorities or knowledge tested folks don't indulge too much in petty disputes. The only thing I differ on the subject is that if there is an elder person who is abusive towards newbies or others in the dicsipline, I tend to see those situations as judgment calls as to how much piety one really owes an older person. If someone talks some trash talk once in while, ignore it, but habitual ax grinders that indoctrinate others on authority of their age should be subject to getting called on it. I may later be sorry I said that.
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Date Jun. 22 2017 0:44:23
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BarkellWH
Posts: 3462
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC
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RE: Elitism in the world of Flamenco (in reply to constructordeguitarras)
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quote:
Actually, the most famous flamenco dancer (well, aside from Carmen Amaya--or are non-aficionados unaware of her anyway?) is, perhaps, an Italian-American born in New York, namely Jose Greco. Funny world. In fact, a teen-aged Paco de Lucia toured with the Jose Greco Flamenco Dance Troupe in the early sixties. It was around 1963-64, that Paco met both Sabicas and Mario Escudero in New York City while with Jose Greco. Both, of course became something of early mentors to Paco. Bill
_____________________________
And the end of the fight is a tombstone white, With the name of the late deceased, And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here, Who tried to hustle the East." --Rudyard Kipling
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Date Jun. 22 2017 16:00:37
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