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Gildeavalle

Posts: 47
Joined: Oct. 26 2012
From: Granada

Antonio de Torres 200 years 

Conference by Guitar Constructor Daniel Gil de Avalle: Antonio de Torres Jurado 200 anniversary
https://gildeavalle.wordpress.com/2017/03/01/conference-centro-de-documentacion-musical-de-andalucia-antonio-de-torres-200-anniversary/



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Daniel Gil de Avalle Guitar Maker/Luthier:
Classical, Flamenco & Historic Guitars
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 8 2017 5:16:54
 
sombra

 

Posts: 25
Joined: Feb. 21 2010
 

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to Gildeavalle

bonito homenaje al maestro Antonio Torres
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 10 2017 12:42:13
 
benros

 

Posts: 144
Joined: Aug. 27 2016
 

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to Gildeavalle

there is also a new orfeo magazine issue online about torres.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 10 2017 21:23:54
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3225
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to benros

In the Orfeo there's an interview with Romanillos, the leading expert on Torres' life and work, and interviews with Stefano Grondona, Wulfin Lieske, and Carles Trepat, all pros who play concerts on Torres instruments.

Trepat says that he thinks the guitars most like Torres' are the instruments of Manuel Ramirez, and the flamenco guitars of Santos Hernandez and Esteso.

Having played a few Santos and Estesos myself, but no Torres, I would add Marcelo Barbero to the list.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 11 2017 2:14:54
 
Echi

 

Posts: 975
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to Gildeavalle

Manuel Ramirez is famous for having been strongly influenced by Torres.
It seems like he made more than one copy of a Torres instrument presented ( and sold?) as a true Torres. An example is analyzed and reported by Richard Bruné in the Ullrik book (A collection of fine Spanish guitars).
Santos Hernandez and Domingo Esteso used to work for Manuel Ramirez and obviously followed his teachings.
One of the main differences between the 1912 Manuel Ramirez used by Segovia and the guitars of Torres is the thickness of the sides though (thinner in Torres).
The flamenco guitars of Hernandez have thinner sides than his classical. This easily explain the sentence of Trepat.
The late Marcelo Barbero, while undoubtely a great builder, used thicker plates and I wouldn't associate his guitars with those of Torres as Santos.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2017 10:46:19
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3225
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to Echi

My remark was due to the sound and feel of the Barberos I have played, rather than structural measurements.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 13 2017 22:33:10
 
estebanana

Posts: 8342
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

My remark was due to the sound and feel of the Barberos I have played, rather than structural measurements.

RNJ


I agree, and also structurally they are very much linked to Torres.
Some claim there is difference between old guitar design and so called 'modern' guitar design. Not such huge leaps in design change in reality. The difference is, at some point, guitar players became brutos and just wanted bigger baseball bats. The essence of this is that guitars are not golf clubs or bats, but guitar players think they are.

Which is very discouraging and tells me I live in the wrong era. It's very, very discouraging.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2017 1:26:24
 
Echi

 

Posts: 975
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to Gildeavalle

After the death of Segovia the classical guitar world found new interest for historical guitar makers like Torres, Hauser, Garcia etc.
Few decades ago, they were few pro-players not playing Ramirez or Kohno and no interest for Torres, to the point you could get many historical guitars for cheap money.
I'm not making here the point of emulation but of devélopement of technique, repertoire and charisma of the leading players.
I have not idea how the things will go with flamenco after Paco.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2017 7:01:51
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13410
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to Richard Jernigan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan

In the Orfeo there's an interview with Romanillos, the leading expert on Torres' life and work, and interviews with Stefano Grondona, Wulfin Lieske, and Carles Trepat, all pros who play concerts on Torres instruments.

Trepat says that he thinks the guitars most like Torres' are the instruments of Manuel Ramirez, and the flamenco guitars of Santos Hernandez and Esteso.

Having played a few Santos and Estesos myself, but no Torres, I would add Marcelo Barbero to the list.

RNJ


I feel you probably are referring to flamenco guitars, not classical guitars and would tend to agree about barbero-santos connection, but TORRES did not make proper flamenco guitars. So I doubt you would find this same link to barbero if you could compare. For sure the general design and concepts are ALL Torres inspired, but I often wonder which luthier first made the conscious efforts to get the neck angle just right for a low bridge with no buzz as per flamenco guitars today.

Also curious about how the jose Ramirez I and II "tablao" guitar might have compared to the M. Ramirez-santos-esteso etc line of work. Never played or even seen the famous "tablao" guitar, as Jose Ramirez III describes, his father stubbornly clung to this design as pros gravitated to his Great uncles guitars instead.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2017 16:44:37
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3225
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo
I feel you probably are referring to flamenco guitars, not classical guitars and would tend to agree about barbero-santos connection, but TORRES did not make proper flamenco guitars.


I don't see my copy of Romanillos's book on Torres. It must still be in a box somewhere. Since I moved back to Austin I don't have shelf space for all the books. But the 2nd edition of Urlik's book has bridge dimensions for all the guitars in the collection.

It doesn't give the saddle height above the top, since many of the guitars are more than a century old, and they likely don't have the original saddles, but it does give the height of the bridge tie block. On all of my guitars the saddle extends at least slightly above the tie block, so we could take the height of the tie block as a lower bound on the height of the saddle.

The three Torres guitars in Urlik's collection have varying tie block heights. The lowest is 7.6mm. You could put on a saddle that brought the strings to 8.5mm above the top, and still have at least a millimeter of bone above the wood, probably more. Of the three Torres, this is the one Brune chose to play cañas on the CD that comes with the book.

____________

The only Barberos I have played have been spruce/cypress flamencas.

I suppose you have read Brune's paper contending that the main influence on guitar development in the 19th century would have been flamenco, since there were so many more flamenco players in Spain than "classical."

There's a 1934 spruce/Indian Barbero for sale at Guitar Salon in L.A. They have a video

http://tinyurl.com/y9pn6lcv

of it played by Tomasz Fechner. I don't know about the neck angle and bridge height, but I like the sound of it.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 14 2017 18:28:09
 
estebanana

Posts: 8342
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to Gildeavalle

quote:


There's a 1934 spruce/Indian Barbero for sale at Guitar Salon in L.A. They have a video

http://tinyurl.com/y9pn6lcv

of it played by Tomasz Fechner. I don't know about the neck angle and bridge height, but I like the sound of it.

RNJ


Wow, I think Tomasz Fechner my new favorite classical player. Not a bruto at all.

After much reading, researching and correspondence with Brune' and other authorities, I'm of the opinion that the narrative that supports a 'classical' guitar came first paradigm is largely false. The evidence for a development that holds the Torres era guitar makers outside such binary narrative is very strong. The schism narrative was planted in the mind of the public well into the 20th century. Long after Torres and his contemporaries had passed away. The evidence for a Sevilla based guitar industry that catered mainly to flamenco guitarists is very solid.


On the topic of the tablao guitar, that is part of another split between Manuel Ramirez and this brother. The 'tablao guitar' was an egg shaped thingy that was not like a flamenco guitar, it was more like this: https://www.guitarsalon.com/store/p4924-1897-jose-ramirez-i-spcy.html

The split between Jose I and Manuel was not just that swift move that Manuel pulled by saying he was moving to Paris, and then opening his own shop across town, they also quarreled over the Torres concept. As I understand it, Manuel was a solid Torresian, and Jose I was into other avenues of exploration. But Manuel's genius was that he recognized and dissected the Torres concept and developed within the scope of Torres work. Santos learned this too by intellectual capillary action. Santos Hernandez sponged up Manuel's study of Torres first hand and received the knowledge or what ever it was that Manuel learned.

There was not a lot of discernment market wise as to what was flamenco and what was classical in the days of Manuel moving out on his own. The the idea of a clear division between two fields had not developed yet in the mind of the public, if they even thought about it at all. That division will not become entrenched in the pubic consciousness until the Segovia press corps begins to write concert notices with the differentiation noted, and this occurs in the late 1920's and early 1930's; and is then expanded upon by those who identify with Segovia doctrine of separating 'classical' music from forms of popular music.

Torres and his fellow builders on the Calle' Cuna, Carpenteria, and Cerragerria did not know they were inventing classical guitars because they were mainly making guitars for the dual clientele of some senoritos and mostly flamencos, and some guys who played a mixed bag everything to get a gig. The invention of a label that branded the Segovia Doctrine followers from Flamencos came fifty years after the middle of Torres' Segunda Epocha, or about 1880.

I say Segovia Doctrine with a bit of humorous sarcasm- His ideas were truly taken as doctrinal by many and amounted to a kind of religious vision we still feel palpably today. It will eventually unravel and the narrative will be adjusted to allow the doctrinal aspects of Segovia to be seen objectively without out so much ego. He was truly a great musician, but the mythos around his ideas have taken on a life of their own.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2017 3:41:55
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3388
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

TORRES did not make proper flamenco guitars.


begs the question what is a "proper" flamenco guitar?

I'm sure you have read the longer article by Richard Brune on origins of modern guitar, here is a short excerpt from his website:

"Antonio de Torres is the father of the modern guitar. The model he created borrowing from other Sevilla makers (principally Manuel Gutierrez and Manual Soto y Solares) is still the same model used by nylon string players through out the entire world today. Since World War II it has been called the “classical guitar,” but that term was never used nor even understood in Torres’ day in Sevilla. Outside of Spain, these were simply called “Spanish guitars,” and Torres’ primary market was among the Gypsy flamenco players who constituted the bulk of the Spanish market place 150 years ago." http://www.rebrune.com/torres/

So, if he was making the guitars played by the gypsy flamenco guitarists of the day, surely that means he was making flamenco guitars?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2017 9:38:25
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1919
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to mark indigo

I have fotos of a Manuel Ramirez (Santos) and another by his brother from the same time. When I try to upload the foto, the message says "image too big".

I have no time for this kind of tontería
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2017 14:53:47
 
estebanana

Posts: 8342
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to Gildeavalle

I want to see it. Easy fix. Upload it to this site.

http://www.picresize.com

Set the image to custom, write in 500 pixels wide. hit download. That will reduce the size enough to post it. If you have trouble email me the photo and I can reduce it.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2017 15:23:43
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 730
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

Torres’ primary market was among the Gypsy flamenco players who constituted the bulk of the Spanish market place 150 years ago."


Ok – so surviving Torres guitars will have been scratched, beaten up, dotted with cigarette burns and roughly sanded and re-varnished a few times. I hope nobody ever measures the top thickness and copies one!

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2017 16:06:28
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to Gildeavalle

quote:

I hope nobody ever measures the top thickness and copies one!



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\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 15 2017 23:50:23
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13410
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

So, if he was making the guitars played by the gypsy flamenco guitarists of the day, surely that means he was making flamenco guitars


There were classical players such as sor Aguado and later Arcas and Tarrega. Tarrega's actual guitar is in that Urlick Book, an 1888 Torres, and it is absolutely what I would call a classical guitar compared to something that R. Montoya played 10-20 years later. While I accept the lines between Spanish guitars are blurry back then, for sure there were flamenco guitars as we think of today by the time of Manuel Ramirez in first decade of 1900 and I have seen examples, and all flamenco players know why the different type of guitar evolved. The other Torres contemporary not mentioned as much, but was the direct influence on J. Ramirez I, was Francisco Gonzales.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2017 13:45:37
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3388
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to RobJe

quote:

quote:

Torres’ primary market was among the Gypsy flamenco players who constituted the bulk of the Spanish market place 150 years ago."


Ok – so surviving Torres guitars will have been scratched, beaten up, dotted with cigarette burns and roughly sanded and re-varnished a few times. I hope nobody ever measures the top thickness and copies one!


Have you read the full article? I am not qualified or sufficiently knowledgeable to argue with Richard Brune or anyone else about this, so feel free to take it up with him.....

But my understanding from having read the article a while ago was that at the time Torres was building there was no distinction between "classical" and "flamenco" guitars.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2017 18:10:43
 
RobJe

 

Posts: 730
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to mark indigo

Sorry Mark – it was meant to be a lighthearted comment. I am not qualified to say either.

However I seriously worry about the reverence given to some old guitars that have had the life sucked out of them by years of mistreatment and aggressive restorations.

I have played a few Santos cypress guitars – some a bit disappointing. I have wondered whether they have suffered from progressive thinning of the top during refinishing. One I played a few years ago had been sensitively restored to playing order after gross mistreatment. One small area of soundboard was so thin that it had to be replaced with new wood to make the guitar playable.

http://www.loweguitars.co.uk/index.php/portfolio/guitar-restoration/santos-hernandezrestoration

Recently two guitars attributed to Torres (sold £10200) and Santos (sold £5040) were auctioned in London. The condition report said that the Torres had a new top (disputed by some) and the Santos top was very thin with multiple cracks - unplayable probably?.

https://www.bromptons.co/auction/27th-march-2017/lots/134-a-fine-flamenco-guitar-attributed-to-santos-hernandez-circa-1919.html

https://www.bromptons.co/auction/27th-march-2017/lots/135-a-fine-classical-guitar-attributed-to-antonio-torres.html

Rob
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 16 2017 19:54:46
 
estebanana

Posts: 8342
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

There were classical players such as sor Aguado and later Arcas and Tarrega. Tarrega's actual guitar is in that Urlick Book, an 1888 Torres, and it is absolutely what I would call a classical guitar compared to something that R. Montoya played 10-20 years later. While I accept the lines between Spanish guitars are blurry back then, for sure there were flamenco guitars as we think of today by the time of Manuel Ramirez in first decade of 1900 and I have seen examples, and all flamenco players know why the different type of guitar evolved. The other Torres contemporary not mentioned as much, but was the direct influence on J. Ramirez I, was Francisco Gonzales.



When I was studying anthropology Dr. Gamper said of the evolutionary debate: "There are lumpers and there are splitters." He was talking about the parsing out of details between species. Are these robust australopithecines all one species or are there distinct sub species? It all culminated a famous near fist fight when Donald Johansen and Richard Leakey met on a TV program to discuss the line of ascent.

Johansen drew out this careful chart on a black broad with multi colored chalks and began discoursing, whilst Leakey sat on his stool fuming and having a heart attack. Near the end of Johansen speaking, Leakey no longer able to control himself, leaped up and angrily lurched at Donald and shouted "You should just throw these bloody crayons away!"

I feel as though someday there will be a stand off between the lumpers and the splitters on classical vs. flamenco origins and I hope I'm there to see it in person.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 17 2017 2:50:28
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1563
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Johansen drew out this careful chart on a black broad with multi colored chalks


Though it might be inadvisable to draw your charts on any broad....

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I always have flamenco guitars available for sale.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jun. 19 2017 1:23:55
 
Gildeavalle

Posts: 47
Joined: Oct. 26 2012
From: Granada

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to benros

Yes the article on Torres in the Orfeo Magazine is great. My theory that Torres was born in the Kingdom of Granada is collected there. Almeria, in the beginning of the XIX century, when Torres was born belong to the kingdom of Granada, and that means a lot. Torres sold mines shares and together with other social interests he came to Granada. It was my friend Joaquin Pierre who supported this theory with documents. Also about Torres learning music with Dionisio Aguado. I made up lots of connection and I try to explain them with this time of conferences and also with the Micro-exposition in my guitar-workshop with my historic guitars and books. It has been a great success and it is ending in a few days, but any time you come to Granada you are most welcome to come to my workshop and chat about it.



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Daniel Gil de Avalle Guitar Maker/Luthier:
Classical, Flamenco & Historic Guitars
http://www.gildeavalle.wordpress.com
https://www.facebook.com/guitarrasdegranada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 29 2017 5:34:02
 
Gildeavalle

Posts: 47
Joined: Oct. 26 2012
From: Granada

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to Richard Jernigan

As for Trepat, I will try to contact him and know about his opinion. He asked me my opinion about the Torres I analyzed in Granada from the contructive and organological point of vies. What do you think about the following: don you know the Ortega guitars? The Ortega family, from Granada built guitars in the XIX century. I own a mapple one which, to me is absolutely wonderful. Torres restored a Ortega guitar, and also Santos-Hernandez came to Granada to work with Ortega before working with Ramirez. I think this is a relevant fact as well. The following is a picture on my Ortega during the restoration process



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_____________________________

Daniel Gil de Avalle Guitar Maker/Luthier:
Classical, Flamenco & Historic Guitars
http://www.gildeavalle.wordpress.com
https://www.facebook.com/guitarrasdegranada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 29 2017 5:43:46
 
Gildeavalle

Posts: 47
Joined: Oct. 26 2012
From: Granada

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to Richard Jernigan

Yes, Romanillos is Torres' expert and the one who was able to get his guitars documented, no doubt about that and starting point for many researchers. As for the interest about historic guitar after Segovias' death, Cano had a great collection of historic guitars, included Torres, and Torres was mentioned as an exceptional guitar-maker in at least a book of the first quarter of the XIX century by a Granada cultural expert. Maybe Segovia internaionalized the taste for historic guitars. But if you know something about Festival de Cante Jondo, it was an important event that tried to give value to guitars, guitar-makers and guitar-players in Granada both in 1922 with Falla, Lorca, a young Segovia...and in its 50th anniversary in 1972 with not that young Segovia, Cano, Sabicas...
https://gildeavalle.wordpress.com/2017/07/06/andres-segovia-2017-on-the-30th-anniversary-of-his-death-95-and-50-anniversary-of-the-1st-conquest-of-flamenco-cante-jondo-granada-1922/

https://gildeavalle.wordpress.com/2017/07/25/andres-segovia-at-los-olivos-andres-segovia-santos-hernandez-old-gil-de-avalles-video-with-this-piece-of-history/



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_____________________________

Daniel Gil de Avalle Guitar Maker/Luthier:
Classical, Flamenco & Historic Guitars
http://www.gildeavalle.wordpress.com
https://www.facebook.com/guitarrasdegranada
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 29 2017 5:58:38
 
johnguitar

 

Posts: 181
Joined: Jan. 10 2006
 

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to Gildeavalle

quote:

and also Santos-Hernandez came to Granada to work with Ortega before working with Ramirez. I think this is a relevant fact as well.


Santos Hernández worked with Ortega in MADRID before working with Ramirez. You can find this information in an article I wrote for the spanish musicology journal "Roseta". There I quote from an interview with Santos which was published in spanish in 1943 and then translated into English by Richard Brune in 2007. According to Aarón García (The Granada School of Guitar-makers) Rafael Ortega worked in Madrid at that time but on his label it says Ortega from Granada.

"Later, with Ortega. He was a guitar-maker from Granada working at Cadiz street." Santos Hernandez

Domingo Prat only says that he worked with Ortega from Granada and doesn't specify where.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2017 7:04:09
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3388
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

TORRES did not make proper flamenco guitars. ..... I often wonder which luthier first made the conscious efforts to get the neck angle just right for a low bridge with no buzz as per flamenco guitars today.

Also curious about how the jose Ramirez I and II "tablao" guitar might have compared to the M. Ramirez-santos-esteso etc line of work. Never played or even seen the famous "tablao" guitar, as Jose Ramirez III describes, his father stubbornly clung to this design as pros gravitated to his Great uncles guitars instead.


As this thread has been re-bumped I have read through it again and it has re-piqued my interest.

I did question the assertion that Torres didn't make flamenco guitars in the light of having read the Richard Brune article, but that is about the limit of my negligible knowledge. From what I read in the article, Torres' guitars were closer to modern flamenco guitars than to modern classical guitars. But as I haven't ever seen or played a Torres guitar I don't really know....

The questions in the above quote from Ricardo don't seem to be answered...?

If Torres didn't, who did make the first flamenco guitars?

What is a "tablao" guitar?

Is this information out there somewhere I can look up/read up?

Is there a book on guitar history that deals with flamenco guitars development?

EDIT: Also, as I have two "modern" Conde's from Felipe V shop, and a cheap Valeriano Bernal, how to these guitars differ (generally) from guitars of Santos Hernandez and Domingo Esteso (neither of which I have ever played or ever likely to)?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2017 17:03:22
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo

EDIT: Also, as I have two "modern" Conde's from Felipe V shop, and a cheap Valeriano Bernal, how to these guitars differ (generally) from guitars of Santos Hernandez and Domingo Esteso (neither of which I have ever played or ever likely to)?

I've played a few very old flamenco guitars (Santos, Esteso, Barbero, etc.). They seemed a lot more limber than modern guitars but that could just be the result of their age; however I had a chance to play a Hauser classic from the mid-thirties that had been stored unplayed for many years which had a nice firm action. Manuel Lopez-Ramos who owned it said he had been trying to buy it for many years and finally the owner gave in. I didn't ask the price.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2017 18:24:15
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3388
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to jshelton5040

quote:

I've played a few very old flamenco guitars (Santos, Esteso, Barbero, etc.)


also i have noticed that a lot of guitar makers who make classical and flamenco guitars base their flamenco model on Santos Hernandez. I don't know if I want a guitar like that because I have never played one! Maybe I would prefer that style of guitar, but it's a big expense to find out

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2017 19:06:11
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to mark indigo

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo
also i have noticed that a lot of guitar makers who make classical and flamenco guitars base their flamenco model on Santos Hernandez. I don't know if I want a guitar like that because I have never played one! Maybe I would prefer that style of guitar, but it's a big expense to find out

You have two high end splendid quality guitars. Unless you want to become a collector I see no reason to even shop around.

When people say they are using Santos as a model it doesn't mean it will sound like a Santos (most of us are too young to have heard a Santos that wasn't already old). It's just a good solid design to copy. Right now we're using a bracing system on our double tops that sort of resembles a Bernabe and these guitars don't sound much like the Bernabe guitars I've played, it's just a design that struck me as a good one for double tops so either we got lucky or 50 years of experience means something but it's working quite well.

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John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2017 22:09:58
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3388
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Antonio de Torres 200 years (in reply to jshelton5040

quote:

You have two high end splendid quality guitars. Unless you want to become a collector I see no reason to even shop around.


I can't afford to become a collector, but I am curious, about both the sound and playability of different styles of guitar, and also the general history and development of flamenco guitars.

I haven't "finished" learning, and I am never satisfied with either my playing or my guitars. Of the two Conde's (both bought second hand), I feel the negra is overall the better instrument, but I like some of the more "flamenco" qualities of the blanca. Unfortunately I don't get to play a lot of different guitars, and wonder if something else might suit me better. I have a friend who has a Gerundino, and a Jose Lopez Bellido (both cipres), and there are things about those guitars that I really like too. Maybe I'm just greedy, or unrealistic in continuing to search for the "perfect" guitar, even though it probably doesn't exist.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 2 2017 22:29:12
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