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Pickup wire clips on brace?   You are logged in as Guest
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turnermoran

Posts: 391
Joined: Feb. 6 2010
 

Pickup wire clips on brace? 
Hi Luthiers - i'm under the impression that any thing attached to a soundboard, or any modification to the bridge is likely to have a negative effect on the sound.
I am adding an LR baggs Lyric pickup to a guitar, as the microphone design does not require a bridge modification, however I am a fixing a small microphone by way of padded adhesive to the underside of the soundboard for this pickup.

Additionally, I'm supposed to affix small clips to hold the wires in place. Rather than a fix them to the soundboard, what if I put them on the side of a brace?
Do you think it makes any difference?
Similarly, if the pick up were attached straight to the soundboard or to the bridge plate, is one better than the other?

Thanks in advance
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 23 2017 15:25:21
 
estebanana

Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Pickup wire clips on brace? (in reply to turnermoran) 
Probably not a lot of difference. But do the install so it can be reversed, not permanent. If you notice something wrong you can reroute the wires to take it out. Just place it where the instructions say to place it.

It also depends of how heavy the mic is and where you stick it, The LR Baggs people have worked it out. Big braces carrying wire clips, probably not any discernible effect. I've installed a few of the LR Baggs systems and I can't hear any before after changes really. Even on the soundhole mounted control systems, so installing the right way should work. That said, that particular system works better on Steel String guitars in my opinion, but ok for nylon.

The LR Baggs gear is warranted so keep all your instructions and packaging receipts. They are easy to deal with if anything ever goes wrong with the product.

Guitars are stupidly resilient to modification once they are built right. You calculate the top specs so carefully, then slap a hunk of plastic on it....you can't hear it unless you have dog hearing. And you can carve all the fan braces out and it hardly changes, it might collapse in 20 years, but so what.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 24 2017 3:22:10
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Pickup wire clips on brace? (in reply to turnermoran) 
Stephen is right.
Stuff the mic in and see what happens. Try using the transversal bars below and above the soundhole for the wiring as much as possible. If the result is to bad, take it out and put it in another guitar. Be carefull with what you put underneath the saddle bone. Sometimes it works, no problem and sometimes it dampens the guitar.
Guitar building is all about getting the top right. Sometimes I even wonder what is right
This idea that there is a perfect dimension, stiffness etc. is nice for those liking to calculate everything in their head, but practice shows that sometimes guitars that are not even close to these "perfect" dimensions may sound as good or better. To me its about balance in the soundboard.
I know that violins are different beasts, but they are stringed wood instruments. The difference between buiders can be very big. Guarnerius del Gesu built very different from Stradivarius, but you´ll find a lot of players prefering one or the other. So is it with guitars.
You can copy dimensions to perfection. Maybe it will end up being a nice instrument, maybe not. The wood will never be a copy of the original instrument, so its down to the builder to find out how to balance the thing.
Uhhh, I think I havent typed so much for weeks. I´m all sweaty

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 24 2017 7:06:27
 
estebanana

Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Pickup wire clips on brace? (in reply to turnermoran) 
I can't read your posts. You write so much my head spins.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 24 2017 11:27:00
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Pickup wire clips on brace? (in reply to turnermoran) 
I have the same system, I attached to braces for he same reason. Getting the wires nice and neat to not rattle around was a huge pain. I didn't experience any noticeable difference in tone.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 24 2017 12:20:02
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Pickup wire clips on brace? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

And you can carve all the fan braces out and it hardly changes, it might collapse in 20 years, but so what.

More likely 20 minutes than 20 years. Assuming it's not a laminated (double) top preformed in a solera.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2017 14:17:33
 
estebanana

Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Pickup wire clips on brace? (in reply to turnermoran) 
I know two well known makers who did that as an experiment, and I've done it too. The tops don't collapse, they might over time distort. When the top 'S" curves in front of the bridge the guitar sounds awesome.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2017 15:26:48
 
Ricardo

Posts: 15160
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Pickup wire clips on brace? (in reply to jshelton5040) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

And you can carve all the fan braces out and it hardly changes, it might collapse in 20 years, but so what.

More likely 20 minutes than 20 years. Assuming it's not a laminated (double) top preformed in a solera.


Cedar tops are thinner right?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2017 17:53:39
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Pickup wire clips on brace? (in reply to Ricardo) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Cedar tops are thinner right?

no, generally thicker.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2017 18:02:26
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Pickup wire clips on brace? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana
When the top 'S" curves in front of the bridge the guitar sounds awesome.

I've built a few guitars with too light bracing and saw the results immediately after they were strung. None of them sounded "awesome" to me but opinions on sound certainly vary. I found them embarrassing.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 26 2017 20:01:05
 
estebanana

Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Pickup wire clips on brace? (in reply to turnermoran) 
Not advocating making tops with 'soft' bracing - citing some examples of how things work despite everyones best opinion.

Here are the outliers - Some Hauser guitars have a fallen top between sound hole and bridge. Purposefully done, intended, or mistake that does not matter?

Many guitars that work quite well have dished tops, maybe not good looking, and not a trait that you would want to see. Example guitarist Joe Bacon played a famous makers guitar for perhaps 30 or more years, the top was dished between sound hole and bridge I asked him if he was worried about it, he said it's been like that for more than 20 years.

I won't name them, but I know of at least two established makers who did what I mentioned, which is to carve out the braces to see what will happen. Both reported the arch remained, and one gave a time line, at least two years. The other guy implied a long duration of time.

And there have been makers who intentionally build a distortion into the top from day one, who comes to mind is Jim Redgate, who even calls it "the wave model".

So to say " it will last for 20 years" is my hyperbole talking, but the fact is distortion exists in playing guitars. Most of us,myself included, don't want that to happen and build to make sure it does not happen. But if you take a straight edge to the arch of enough old guitars, in my opinion you don't get a consensus of perfectly arched tops, what you see is great variety in the condition of the arch on guitars that are still working. One of the first things I do with a guitar coming into the shop is put a wooden straight edge across the top to read what state the arch is in and make a mental note. And I daresay, in many lightly built flamenco guitars you can perceive bridge tilts toward the neck, or that the top dips below the rim line between the bridge and edge of lower bout. These distortions exist on many guitars that sound good. Guitars of all brands.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2017 0:05:53
 
estebanana

Posts: 9413
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Pickup wire clips on brace? (in reply to turnermoran) 
I think the Luthery Section needs more fiber in its diet, or a box of Colon Blow. It's gotten a might stuffy here as of late.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2017 0:19:01
 
Echi

 

Posts: 1157
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Pickup wire clips on brace? (in reply to turnermoran) 
I know some famous luthiers do it on purpose, as Estebana said.
I suppose Dammann is a name to mention as he seeks for an heavy top distortion: Dammann glues his bridges 5 mm behind the correct line as he forecasts they will be in the right place after few months.
Robert Ruck wrote something interesting about it: he said there is more strength in these tops.
Beside the theory though, I had some flamenco guitars made in Granada with a thin top and I learned this asks for a certain discernment.
I had at least a couple of guitars (one was a Bellido) were the top gradually collapsed getting an excessive action...unplayable. .
I had a nice Barranco with a half moon bridge and without a proper main transverse bar whose top gradually took an evident S shape.
The guitar is still ok and perfectly playable but all in all, became too snappy and loosen.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2017 7:48:13
 
Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006
 

RE: Pickup wire clips on brace? (in reply to turnermoran) 
quote:

I had at least a couple of guitars (one was a Bellido) were the top gradually collapsed getting an excessive action...unplayable. .


Many of the Manuel Bellido guitars that I´ve had in my hands had to much positive neck angle in the setup (up to 7mm at the nut!) Very thin bridges and hardly any bone.
It doesnt have to be a problem, at least not on a short term, but if (when) the soundboard lifts, then there´s very little, if any headroom to adjust setup.

Well, now we are totally OT

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Mar. 27 2017 8:08:14
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1694
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Pickup wire clips on brace? (in reply to estebanana) 
quote:

I can't read your posts. You write so much my head spins.




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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Apr. 1 2017 14:26:55
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