Foro Flamenco


Posts Since Last Visit | Advanced Search | Home | Register | Login

Today's Posts | Inbox | Profile | Our Rules | Contact Admin | Log Out



Welcome to one of the most active flamenco sites on the Internet. Guests can read most posts but if you want to participate click here to register.

This site is dedicated to the memory of Paco de Lucía, Ron Mitchell, Guy Williams, Linda Elvira, Philip John Lee, Craig Eros, Ben Woods, David Serva and Tom Blackshear who went ahead of us.

We receive 12,200 visitors a month from 200 countries and 1.7 million page impressions a year. To advertise on this site please contact us.





Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions   You are logged in as Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1]
Login
Message<< Newer Topic  Older Topic >>
 
himanshu.g

 

Posts: 42
Joined: Jun. 9 2016
 

Barre chords technique and conflicti... 

Here are the two conflicting opinions, but both of them come from famous guitarists and many other pretty good players.

Opinion-1: Use weight of the arm that is generated by natural arm pull due to gravity , also mentioned as "biceps grip" sometime. And, you must not generate pressure by thumb.
This opinion is expressed in the book "Pumping Nylon" by Scott Tennant. And, also I have heard this same opinion from multiple other classical guitarists on youtube.

Opinion-2: Use the pressure between thumb and fingers (the "squeeze"). And, you must not get pressure from pulling of the arm.
This opinion is expressed in the book "El arte Flamenco De La Guitarra" by Juan Martin. And, also I have heard the same opinion from another very good flamenco player I know.


So, Here is what I could deduce….

Deduction-1: It is due to the different way guitar is held between classical style and non-traditional (PDL cross legged position) flamenco style.
In the classical style, neck of the guitar is at greater angle (from ground, in front view) so your hand is below the neck while playing and there is gravity helping you press and that is why Opinion-1 comes from classical guitar players.
Whereas, in Flamenco cross legged style posture, guitar is not held at that much angle so neck and arm are at pretty much the same height and gravity does not help much. That is why, Opinion-2 comes from flamenco players


Deduction-2: It has nothing to do with classical or flamenco style but just that different people have different hand shapes, lengths and fingers etc , so for some people Opinion-1 works while for some people Opinion-2 works.


Now, for the people here who can play pieces with barre chords easily, what is your technique and does “Deduction-1” or “Deduction-2” sound appropriate to you?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2017 22:35:20
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to himanshu.g

When I was still teaching I would show students that I could play with the thumb off the back of the neck. Squeezing causes tension which is antithetical to speed and accuracy. If you have to squeeze to play chords either you have bad technique or the action on the guitar is bad.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2017 23:44:31
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to jshelton5040

Squeezing can also cause injury to the muscle connecting the thumb to the rest of the hand. Not good!

_____________________________

Ay compañerita de mi alma
tú ahora no me conoces.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 7 2017 23:52:23
 
rombsix

Posts: 7832
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to himanshu.g

Dude - if you're still having trouble with barre, it means you just have not been playing guitar long enough. You don't need to think about squeezing or arm weight or all that jazz. Just play barre chords and perhaps use the side of your index rather than completely flat on the guitar, get an instrument with low action, and practice for a couple of months (play Save Tonight which has an F barre chord in it - haha!), then the barre issue will spontaneously resolve.

Really, I'm not joking.

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2017 0:31:59
 
Piwin

Posts: 3565
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to himanshu.g

I think opinion 2 is flawed so I can't really speak to your "deductions". Your thumb really shouldn't be used to squeeze the neck IMHO. I've had trouble with that and it really stiffles your playing. Beyond the risk of injuries, it's just a waste of energy that'll tire your hand out and slow you down. I mainly play cross-legged but I think I'm also "using gravity", but it goes through the right arm resting on the guitar. If you think of your body as a pivot point, then you'd have your left hand pressing down in one direction and your right arm offsetting that pressure on the other side. If you're using pressure in your right-hand thumb, that's probably an indication that you're pressing down too hard with the other fingers. If you're pressing down just right, then your right arm is more than enough to keep the neck in place. At least that's what it was like for me.

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2017 10:28:08

payaso

 

Posts: 85
Joined: Dec. 7 2014
 

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to jshelton5040

An interesting debate. To apply the pressure needed to stop the strings cleanly in a barré there needs to be some counterpressure to the fingers. If you do a barré without the left thumb touching the guitar, that counterpressure will come from the resistance provided by the right forearm pulling (but not moving) the edge of the guitar in towards the chest, acting as a lever, with or without a pulling of the left arm. I don’t find it possible to do a barré with neither the left thumb nor the right arm touching the guitar. Can anybody? Using the left thumb as the counterpressure seems to me natural and strain-free – certainly not damaging.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2017 10:51:43
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to payaso

You raise a good point Payaso. And PDL picado involves lifting the arm from the guitar - so was he squeezing a little when doing picado with a barre? I have the impression that overall posture (how the guitar rests on the body) is really important here too.

_____________________________

Ay compañerita de mi alma
tú ahora no me conoces.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2017 11:55:41
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3461
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to himanshu.g

I think this debate is another example of "overthinking" technique that occasionally comes up on the Foro. Perhaps some can play a barre chord without using any thumb pressure whatsoever, but I think that most of us need a bit of thumb to apply counter-pressure to that applied by the fingers on the chord. Using the right arm to apply counter-pressure, with the body as a fulcrum, may be useful, but I still think some use of the thumb steadies it.

In short, I agree with Ramzi. Just find the technique (probably some combination) that feels most comfortable to you that gets the job done. Sometimes I think fledgling flamenco guitarists obsess too much over what they read in "how to" books. It's often not one or the other, but what works for the individual. Don't get wrapped around the axle over which is the "correct" technique.

Bill

_____________________________

And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2017 12:05:35
 
Piwin

Posts: 3565
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to Dudnote

quote:

so was he squeezing a little when doing picado


That's the main "issue" for me. But really just for picado on the bass strings. I notice the guitar sways just a little when I do that, but it doesn't really seem to be a problem.

@BarkellWH You're probably right that it's just a combination of several things. My own experience was that I was applying too much pressure on the thumb. It got to the point where I had to take short breaks after just 15min because my right hand would tense up too much. I think the main issue I faced was just too much pressure from my other left-hand fingers. Learning to apply the minimum pressure necessary was particularly difficult for the basic barre. In fact, when I first started the guitar, for the "por arriba" minor shape, I used to do the barre with two fingers, with the m pressing down on the i for additionnal pressure. I had a good laugh when I finally realized I was doing that.

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2017 12:08:46
 
athrane77

Posts: 785
Joined: Feb. 6 2011
From: Reykjavik

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to himanshu.g

I like to imagine that im using the weight of my arm to hold a barre.
That helps me to relax my hand. Anyway I don't know if I'm really using the weight of my arm, the important point is the relaxation. You don't need a lot of energy to play the guitar. Try to find a very relaxed way to hold a barre.
I really liked the exercises by Scott Tennant, have you tried them yet?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2017 12:14:04
 
rombsix

Posts: 7832
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to BarkellWH

quote:

In short, I agree with Ramzi.


Olé!

_____________________________

Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2017 15:00:56
 
edguerin

Posts: 1590
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to Piwin

quote:

because my right hand would tense up too much

Ah, so you're left-handed. That explains it all

_____________________________

Ed

El aficionado solitario
Alemania
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2017 15:54:24
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14899
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to himanshu.g

I just tried playing guitar with my thumb not touching the back of the neck. I CAN do it but that is not at all what is happening to apply pressure to chords and notes. I could feel the pulling in my shoulder and arm to achieve the required pressure and is something that certainly doesn't happen when playing. Also to check this gravity thing, I tried playing upside down. Feels weird on right hand but left hand was pretty normal, playing wise, and both elbows got tired but no gravity going on there to hold chords.

I think the trick is to not apply any more than the required pressure, like holding a pen or pencil to write dark enough. Some folks write so hard the lead breaks. Same problem for guitar players that vice grip unnecessarily.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2017 16:12:59
 
Piwin

Posts: 3565
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I tried playing upside down


The mark of a real pro!




Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2017 17:07:17
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I just tried playing guitar with my thumb not touching the back of the neck. I CAN do it but that is not at all what is happening to apply pressure to chords and notes.


Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting playing with the thumb off the back of the neck. What I was showing the students was how little pressure it really takes.

_____________________________

John Shelton - www.sheltonfarrettaguitars.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2017 18:18:27
 
Paul Magnussen

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 8 2010
From: London (living in the Bay Area)

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

I think the trick is to not apply any more than the required pressure


Exactly right, of course; but I find also that it’s a question of getting the position correct: including rotating the hand slightly to the left (so that strings don’t fall into the hollows of the joints), but not too much.

But even after all these years, I find that I still have trouble holding barrés if I get a couple of months out of practice. So presumably there’s some muscle that needs the exercise…
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2017 18:25:46
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to himanshu.g

Ricardo pretty much nailed it, a very important part of playing is "not to apply any more then the required pressure". This does not only involve the amount of pressure you apply but also the how, were and when.

For example:

When playing a full barre F chord my index only gives "full" pressure to the strings it actually has to ring:

---1----- index
---1----- index
---2----- middle finger (no index pressure)
---3----- little finger (no index pressure)
---3----- ring finger (no index pressure)
---1----- index

In above F chord my index makes contact with all the strings but in reality it only gives "full" pressure with the tip of the index (covering the lowest string) and the base of the finger covering the 2 treble strings (using finger/hand/arm pressure).

So the index preferably does not give full pressure to the strings covered by the other fingers and if in above chord i would lift the other fingers and strum all 6 strings "covered" only by the remaining barree index the 3 outer strings originally covered by the index will still sound clear but the 3 strings originally covered by the other fingers will sound mute/tempered.

---1----- clear sound
---1----- clear sound
--(1)---- no index pressure/mute
--(1)---- no index pressure/mute
--(1)---- no index pressure/mute
---1----- clear sound

When i was still beginner (after 14 years of self studying) i used to plant my index finger first (flat site down) and only then start worrying about the other fingers which quite often i had to break in order to reach their intended positions. At precent day i know that planting the index is the "closing" part of a chain of events rather then the beginning (although actual arriving of the fingers happens more or less simultaneously). You have to know in front how to position your arm/hand so ALL fingers can reach their position effortless/simultaneously. The hand/arm position has the total picture in mind, supporting the fingers a much as possible wile the index "falls as it falls". So with differently shaped chords it will fall (slightly) differently, making contact with (slightly) different parts of the index finger, making (slightly) different angles to the fret and quite often learning to the (left) site of the index rather then using the flat site. More often then not it is slightly curved. A good arm/hand position brings the fingers close to their intended spots without having moved a single finger yet, saving you a lot of trouble reaching/pressing then.

The problem is that although i can generally play it quite easily with my left hand i'll be totally lost if i turn my guitar and try to grip with my right hand because then from one second to the other 45 years of experience is gown to the drain. So no matter how much you know in theory it all comes to practice practice practice.

_____________________________

The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2017 19:29:24
 
himanshu.g

 

Posts: 42
Joined: Jun. 9 2016
 

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to Erik van Goch

Thanks everyone for your comments and thoughts.

I am a beginner and reason for starting this thread was to get some clarity on the conflicts that I got from the opinions mentioned. I hope this thread will help others as well because the books, I mentioned, are read by many beginners.

I try to practice about 1 to 1.5 hour every day and taking skype lessons. In my practice routine about 75% of time is currently dedicated to focussing on arpeggio patterns and tremolo with a falseta, so LH is doing same simple chords ( C major, E major, F major7 mostly ). Since last couple of weeks, I am practicing LH relaxation during this time by holding chords deliberately weak so that strings mute or buzz rather than play.

In the 15% of my practice routing, I try to have some fun by learning to play second part of spanish romance which has mostly barre chords. To play barre chords, I don't exactly do pull or exactly squeeze but something in between and my LH thumb goes pretty low and also I don't need to apply any explicit pressure by RH hand to balance things except its lightly resting on top. I am not able to make quick chord changes yet but that is probably gonna improve with practice over time.

and then some time for triplet rasgueado practice.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2017 23:26:06
 
Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007
 

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to Erik van Goch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch
So no matter how much you know in theory it all comes to practice practice practice.

Yes, with one caveat. You have to practice the good way and not the bad way. Not paying proper attention to muscular fatigue, discomfort or straining tendons and practicing with a gunho 'no pain no gain' attitude can rapidly become completely counter productive. Very important when pushing for greater endurance and dexterity with long barre sequences to know when to stop and work on some other technique.

_____________________________

Ay compañerita de mi alma
tú ahora no me conoces.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 8 2017 23:52:06
 
Leñador

Posts: 5237
Joined: Jun. 8 2012
From: Los Angeles

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to himanshu.g

The "playing with no thumb" thing helped me. I had a many years bad habit from electric of thumb way over the top and overly pinching the neck which you can kind of get away with on electrics. I practiced that way for about 20 minutes a day for 2-3 months and was cured. I believe it also helped my fingers to be more perpendicular to the string. I've never needed to do it since though.

_____________________________

\m/
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2017 0:41:48
 
Cervantes

 

Posts: 503
Joined: Jun. 14 2014
From: Encinitas, CA USA

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to Erik van Goch

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch

Ricardo pretty much nailed it, a very important part of playing is "not to apply any more then the required pressure". This does not only involve the amount of pressure you apply but also the how, were and when.

For example:

When playing a full barre F chord my index only gives "full" pressure to the strings it actually has to ring:

---1----- index
---1----- index
---2----- middle finger (no index pressure)
---3----- little finger (no index pressure)
---3----- ring finger (no index pressure)
---1----- index

In above F chord my index makes contact with all the strings but in reality it only gives "full" pressure with the tip of the index (covering the lowest string) and the base of the finger covering the 2 treble strings (using finger/hand/arm pressure).

So the index preferably does not give full pressure to the strings covered by the other fingers and if in above chord i would lift the other fingers and strum all 6 strings "covered" only by the remaining barree index the 3 outer strings originally covered by the index will still sound clear but the 3 strings originally covered by the other fingers will sound mute/tempered.

---1----- clear sound
---1----- clear sound
--(1)---- no index pressure/mute
--(1)---- no index pressure/mute
--(1)---- no index pressure/mute
---1----- clear sound

When i was still beginner (after 14 years of self studying) i used to plant my index finger first (flat site down) and only then start worrying about the other fingers which quite often i had to break in order to reach their intended positions. At precent day i know that planting the index is the "closing" part of a chain of events rather then the beginning (although actual arriving of the fingers happens more or less simultaneously). You have to know in front how to position your arm/hand so ALL fingers can reach their position effortless/simultaneously. The hand/arm position has the total picture in mind, supporting the fingers a much as possible wile the index "falls as it falls". So with differently shaped chords it will fall (slightly) differently, making contact with (slightly) different parts of the index finger, making (slightly) different angles to the fret and quite often learning to the (left) site of the index rather then using the flat site. More often then not it is slightly curved. A good arm/hand position brings the fingers close to their intended spots without having moved a single finger yet, saving you a lot of trouble reaching/pressing then.

The problem is that although i can generally play it quite easily with my left hand i'll be totally lost if i turn my guitar and try to grip with my right hand because then from one second to the other 45 years of experience is gown to the drain. So no matter how much you know in theory it all comes to practice practice practice.



This technique is explained in this video which I found very helpful. My barre chords are much better than they used to be and I attribute to applying pressure in the right places.



_____________________________

Ah well, there was a fantastic passion there, in my case anyway. I discovered flamenco
very early on. It grips you in a way that you can't get away - Paco Pena
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2017 2:06:34
 
Ricardo

Posts: 14899
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to Cervantes

Well somebody forgot to tell this guy to use gravity for his barres (eye roll)



Seriously though, now I know why I hear a lot of players that play barre chords and pull the strings out of tune accidentally.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 9 2017 3:38:27
 
Filip

 

Posts: 419
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to himanshu.g

I can play barre chords without much problems except: i) for some passages my mussels start to hurt a bit and then I can't continue well (e.g., that nice Doblan Campanas tremolo by Paco), probably because I put too much pressure between my thumb and fingers since this is how I play barre; and ii) sometimes no matter how much pressure I apply and how I put my index finger, the 3rd string is buzzing. Long time since I haven't payed attention to this actually, and I don't have my guitar here now to try it out.

Anyhow, a while ago I read a text from some classical guy (maybe I can find it and upload when I get to my computer), where he was saying that the way to play is to apply the pressure from the left arm towards the body, so no squeezing), while at the same time the right hand stops the guitar in moving forward which would create the pressure on guitar to play barre (I guess this is the third way). I tried and it did not work very well for me.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 10 2017 10:08:08
 
himanshu.g

 

Posts: 42
Joined: Jun. 9 2016
 

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to himanshu.g

Also FWIW, in my experimentation I kind of realize that , for the "squeeze" part, applying pressure from the big thumb joint ( called the "CMC" joint in the pic below) instead of the "MCP" joint helps and that does not cause joint pain but some muscle fatigue only which could theoretically go away by practicing enough.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2017 3:41:27
 
Filip

 

Posts: 419
Joined: Apr. 23 2006
From: Paris

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to himanshu.g

Thanks for this, I'll give it a try.

Cheers
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Jan. 12 2017 20:37:38
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to Dudnote

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dudnote

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch
So no matter how much you know in theory it all comes to practice practice practice.

Yes, with one caveat. You have to practice the good way and not the bad way. Not paying proper attention to muscular fatigue, discomfort or straining tendons and practicing with a gunho 'no pain no gain' attitude can rapidly become completely counter productive. Very important when pushing for greater endurance and dexterity with long barre sequences to know when to stop and work on some other technique.


Absolutely, if anyone is an ambassador of intelligent studying, natural biomechanics, proper relaxation and not overdoing things in even the slightest way it's me :-). With "practice practice practice" i just meant to say Rome wasn't build in a day and knowing the theory behind things does not replace years of (preferably intelligent) studying to explore, (re)tune and exercise both your body and brain.

_____________________________

The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 26 2017 11:24:21
 
Erik van Goch

 

Posts: 1787
Joined: Jul. 17 2012
From: Netherlands

RE: Barre chords technique and confl... (in reply to Cervantes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cervantes

This technique is explained in this video which I found very helpful. My barre chords are much better than they used to be and I attribute to applying pressure in the right places.




Great video. The attention to placement (4:48) is very important as well (it seems to contradict my "the index falls as it falls" but it doesn't since obviously a keen eye/ear for this kind of fine tuning always has to be part of ones playing strategy).

_____________________________

The smaller the object of your focus the bigger the result.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Feb. 26 2017 12:09:27
Page:   [1]
All Forums >>Discussions >>General >> Page: [1]
Jump to:

New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET

0.109375 secs.