Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Full Version)

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himanshu.g -> Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 7 2017 22:35:20)

Here are the two conflicting opinions, but both of them come from famous guitarists and many other pretty good players.

Opinion-1: Use weight of the arm that is generated by natural arm pull due to gravity , also mentioned as "biceps grip" sometime. And, you must not generate pressure by thumb.
This opinion is expressed in the book "Pumping Nylon" by Scott Tennant. And, also I have heard this same opinion from multiple other classical guitarists on youtube.

Opinion-2: Use the pressure between thumb and fingers (the "squeeze"). And, you must not get pressure from pulling of the arm.
This opinion is expressed in the book "El arte Flamenco De La Guitarra" by Juan Martin. And, also I have heard the same opinion from another very good flamenco player I know.


So, Here is what I could deduce….

Deduction-1: It is due to the different way guitar is held between classical style and non-traditional (PDL cross legged position) flamenco style.
In the classical style, neck of the guitar is at greater angle (from ground, in front view) so your hand is below the neck while playing and there is gravity helping you press and that is why Opinion-1 comes from classical guitar players.
Whereas, in Flamenco cross legged style posture, guitar is not held at that much angle so neck and arm are at pretty much the same height and gravity does not help much. That is why, Opinion-2 comes from flamenco players


Deduction-2: It has nothing to do with classical or flamenco style but just that different people have different hand shapes, lengths and fingers etc , so for some people Opinion-1 works while for some people Opinion-2 works.


Now, for the people here who can play pieces with barre chords easily, what is your technique and does “Deduction-1” or “Deduction-2” sound appropriate to you?



jshelton5040 -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 7 2017 23:44:31)

When I was still teaching I would show students that I could play with the thumb off the back of the neck. Squeezing causes tension which is antithetical to speed and accuracy. If you have to squeeze to play chords either you have bad technique or the action on the guitar is bad.



Dudnote -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 7 2017 23:52:23)

Squeezing can also cause injury to the muscle connecting the thumb to the rest of the hand. Not good!



rombsix -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 8 2017 0:31:59)

Dude - if you're still having trouble with barre, it means you just have not been playing guitar long enough. You don't need to think about squeezing or arm weight or all that jazz. Just play barre chords and perhaps use the side of your index rather than completely flat on the guitar, get an instrument with low action, and practice for a couple of months (play Save Tonight which has an F barre chord in it - haha!), then the barre issue will spontaneously resolve. [:D]

Really, I'm not joking. [:)]



Piwin -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 8 2017 10:28:08)

I think opinion 2 is flawed so I can't really speak to your "deductions". Your thumb really shouldn't be used to squeeze the neck IMHO. I've had trouble with that and it really stiffles your playing. Beyond the risk of injuries, it's just a waste of energy that'll tire your hand out and slow you down. I mainly play cross-legged but I think I'm also "using gravity", but it goes through the right arm resting on the guitar. If you think of your body as a pivot point, then you'd have your left hand pressing down in one direction and your right arm offsetting that pressure on the other side. If you're using pressure in your right-hand thumb, that's probably an indication that you're pressing down too hard with the other fingers. If you're pressing down just right, then your right arm is more than enough to keep the neck in place. At least that's what it was like for me.



payaso -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 8 2017 10:51:43)

An interesting debate. To apply the pressure needed to stop the strings cleanly in a barré there needs to be some counterpressure to the fingers. If you do a barré without the left thumb touching the guitar, that counterpressure will come from the resistance provided by the right forearm pulling (but not moving) the edge of the guitar in towards the chest, acting as a lever, with or without a pulling of the left arm. I don’t find it possible to do a barré with neither the left thumb nor the right arm touching the guitar. Can anybody? Using the left thumb as the counterpressure seems to me natural and strain-free – certainly not damaging.



Dudnote -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 8 2017 11:55:41)

You raise a good point Payaso. And PDL picado involves lifting the arm from the guitar - so was he squeezing a little when doing picado with a barre? I have the impression that overall posture (how the guitar rests on the body) is really important here too.



BarkellWH -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 8 2017 12:05:35)

I think this debate is another example of "overthinking" technique that occasionally comes up on the Foro. Perhaps some can play a barre chord without using any thumb pressure whatsoever, but I think that most of us need a bit of thumb to apply counter-pressure to that applied by the fingers on the chord. Using the right arm to apply counter-pressure, with the body as a fulcrum, may be useful, but I still think some use of the thumb steadies it.

In short, I agree with Ramzi. Just find the technique (probably some combination) that feels most comfortable to you that gets the job done. Sometimes I think fledgling flamenco guitarists obsess too much over what they read in "how to" books. It's often not one or the other, but what works for the individual. Don't get wrapped around the axle over which is the "correct" technique.

Bill



Piwin -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 8 2017 12:08:46)

quote:

so was he squeezing a little when doing picado


That's the main "issue" for me. But really just for picado on the bass strings. I notice the guitar sways just a little when I do that, but it doesn't really seem to be a problem.

@BarkellWH You're probably right that it's just a combination of several things. My own experience was that I was applying too much pressure on the thumb. It got to the point where I had to take short breaks after just 15min because my right hand would tense up too much. I think the main issue I faced was just too much pressure from my other left-hand fingers. Learning to apply the minimum pressure necessary was particularly difficult for the basic barre. In fact, when I first started the guitar, for the "por arriba" minor shape, I used to do the barre with two fingers, with the m pressing down on the i for additionnal pressure. I had a good laugh when I finally realized I was doing that.



athrane77 -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 8 2017 12:14:04)

I like to imagine that im using the weight of my arm to hold a barre.
That helps me to relax my hand. Anyway I don't know if I'm really using the weight of my arm, the important point is the relaxation. You don't need a lot of energy to play the guitar. Try to find a very relaxed way to hold a barre.
I really liked the exercises by Scott Tennant, have you tried them yet?



rombsix -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 8 2017 15:00:56)

quote:

In short, I agree with Ramzi.


Olé! [:D]



edguerin -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 8 2017 15:54:24)

quote:

because my right hand would tense up too much

Ah, so you're left-handed. That explains it all [:D][:D][:D]



Ricardo -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 8 2017 16:12:59)

I just tried playing guitar with my thumb not touching the back of the neck. I CAN do it but that is not at all what is happening to apply pressure to chords and notes. I could feel the pulling in my shoulder and arm to achieve the required pressure and is something that certainly doesn't happen when playing. Also to check this gravity thing, I tried playing upside down. Feels weird on right hand but left hand was pretty normal, playing wise, and both elbows got tired but no gravity going on there to hold chords.

I think the trick is to not apply any more than the required pressure, like holding a pen or pencil to write dark enough. Some folks write so hard the lead breaks. Same problem for guitar players that vice grip unnecessarily.

Ricardo



Piwin -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 8 2017 17:07:17)

quote:

I tried playing upside down


The mark of a real pro!
[sm=Smiley Guitar.gif]



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jshelton5040 -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 8 2017 18:18:27)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I just tried playing guitar with my thumb not touching the back of the neck. I CAN do it but that is not at all what is happening to apply pressure to chords and notes.


Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting playing with the thumb off the back of the neck. What I was showing the students was how little pressure it really takes.



Paul Magnussen -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 8 2017 18:25:46)

quote:

I think the trick is to not apply any more than the required pressure


Exactly right, of course; but I find also that it’s a question of getting the position correct: including rotating the hand slightly to the left (so that strings don’t fall into the hollows of the joints), but not too much.

But even after all these years, I find that I still have trouble holding barrés if I get a couple of months out of practice. So presumably there’s some muscle that needs the exercise…



Erik van Goch -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 8 2017 19:29:24)

Ricardo pretty much nailed it, a very important part of playing is "not to apply any more then the required pressure". This does not only involve the amount of pressure you apply but also the how, were and when.

For example:

When playing a full barre F chord my index only gives "full" pressure to the strings it actually has to ring:

---1----- index
---1----- index
---2----- middle finger (no index pressure)
---3----- little finger (no index pressure)
---3----- ring finger (no index pressure)
---1----- index

In above F chord my index makes contact with all the strings but in reality it only gives "full" pressure with the tip of the index (covering the lowest string) and the base of the finger covering the 2 treble strings (using finger/hand/arm pressure).

So the index preferably does not give full pressure to the strings covered by the other fingers and if in above chord i would lift the other fingers and strum all 6 strings "covered" only by the remaining barree index the 3 outer strings originally covered by the index will still sound clear but the 3 strings originally covered by the other fingers will sound mute/tempered.

---1----- clear sound
---1----- clear sound
--(1)---- no index pressure/mute
--(1)---- no index pressure/mute
--(1)---- no index pressure/mute
---1----- clear sound

When i was still beginner (after 14 years of self studying) i used to plant my index finger first (flat site down) and only then start worrying about the other fingers which quite often i had to break in order to reach their intended positions. At precent day i know that planting the index is the "closing" part of a chain of events rather then the beginning (although actual arriving of the fingers happens more or less simultaneously). You have to know in front how to position your arm/hand so ALL fingers can reach their position effortless/simultaneously. The hand/arm position has the total picture in mind, supporting the fingers a much as possible wile the index "falls as it falls". So with differently shaped chords it will fall (slightly) differently, making contact with (slightly) different parts of the index finger, making (slightly) different angles to the fret and quite often learning to the (left) site of the index rather then using the flat site. More often then not it is slightly curved. A good arm/hand position brings the fingers close to their intended spots without having moved a single finger yet, saving you a lot of trouble reaching/pressing then.

The problem is that although i can generally play it quite easily with my left hand i'll be totally lost if i turn my guitar and try to grip with my right hand because then from one second to the other 45 years of experience is gown to the drain. So no matter how much you know in theory it all comes to practice practice practice.



himanshu.g -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 8 2017 23:26:06)

Thanks everyone for your comments and thoughts.

I am a beginner and reason for starting this thread was to get some clarity on the conflicts that I got from the opinions mentioned. I hope this thread will help others as well because the books, I mentioned, are read by many beginners.

I try to practice about 1 to 1.5 hour every day and taking skype lessons. In my practice routine about 75% of time is currently dedicated to focussing on arpeggio patterns and tremolo with a falseta, so LH is doing same simple chords ( C major, E major, F major7 mostly ). Since last couple of weeks, I am practicing LH relaxation during this time by holding chords deliberately weak so that strings mute or buzz rather than play.

In the 15% of my practice routing, I try to have some fun by learning to play second part of spanish romance which has mostly barre chords. To play barre chords, I don't exactly do pull or exactly squeeze but something in between and my LH thumb goes pretty low and also I don't need to apply any explicit pressure by RH hand to balance things except its lightly resting on top. I am not able to make quick chord changes yet but that is probably gonna improve with practice over time.

and then some time for triplet rasgueado practice.



Dudnote -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 8 2017 23:52:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch
So no matter how much you know in theory it all comes to practice practice practice.

Yes, with one caveat. You have to practice the good way and not the bad way. Not paying proper attention to muscular fatigue, discomfort or straining tendons and practicing with a gunho 'no pain no gain' attitude can rapidly become completely counter productive. Very important when pushing for greater endurance and dexterity with long barre sequences to know when to stop and work on some other technique.



Leñador -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 9 2017 0:41:48)

The "playing with no thumb" thing helped me. I had a many years bad habit from electric of thumb way over the top and overly pinching the neck which you can kind of get away with on electrics. I practiced that way for about 20 minutes a day for 2-3 months and was cured. I believe it also helped my fingers to be more perpendicular to the string. I've never needed to do it since though.



Cervantes -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 9 2017 2:06:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch

Ricardo pretty much nailed it, a very important part of playing is "not to apply any more then the required pressure". This does not only involve the amount of pressure you apply but also the how, were and when.

For example:

When playing a full barre F chord my index only gives "full" pressure to the strings it actually has to ring:

---1----- index
---1----- index
---2----- middle finger (no index pressure)
---3----- little finger (no index pressure)
---3----- ring finger (no index pressure)
---1----- index

In above F chord my index makes contact with all the strings but in reality it only gives "full" pressure with the tip of the index (covering the lowest string) and the base of the finger covering the 2 treble strings (using finger/hand/arm pressure).

So the index preferably does not give full pressure to the strings covered by the other fingers and if in above chord i would lift the other fingers and strum all 6 strings "covered" only by the remaining barree index the 3 outer strings originally covered by the index will still sound clear but the 3 strings originally covered by the other fingers will sound mute/tempered.

---1----- clear sound
---1----- clear sound
--(1)---- no index pressure/mute
--(1)---- no index pressure/mute
--(1)---- no index pressure/mute
---1----- clear sound

When i was still beginner (after 14 years of self studying) i used to plant my index finger first (flat site down) and only then start worrying about the other fingers which quite often i had to break in order to reach their intended positions. At precent day i know that planting the index is the "closing" part of a chain of events rather then the beginning (although actual arriving of the fingers happens more or less simultaneously). You have to know in front how to position your arm/hand so ALL fingers can reach their position effortless/simultaneously. The hand/arm position has the total picture in mind, supporting the fingers a much as possible wile the index "falls as it falls". So with differently shaped chords it will fall (slightly) differently, making contact with (slightly) different parts of the index finger, making (slightly) different angles to the fret and quite often learning to the (left) site of the index rather then using the flat site. More often then not it is slightly curved. A good arm/hand position brings the fingers close to their intended spots without having moved a single finger yet, saving you a lot of trouble reaching/pressing then.

The problem is that although i can generally play it quite easily with my left hand i'll be totally lost if i turn my guitar and try to grip with my right hand because then from one second to the other 45 years of experience is gown to the drain. So no matter how much you know in theory it all comes to practice practice practice.



This technique is explained in this video which I found very helpful. My barre chords are much better than they used to be and I attribute to applying pressure in the right places.




Ricardo -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 9 2017 3:38:27)

Well somebody forgot to tell this guy to use gravity for his barres (eye roll)



Seriously though, now I know why I hear a lot of players that play barre chords and pull the strings out of tune accidentally.



Filip -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 10 2017 10:08:08)

I can play barre chords without much problems except: i) for some passages my mussels start to hurt a bit and then I can't continue well (e.g., that nice Doblan Campanas tremolo by Paco), probably because I put too much pressure between my thumb and fingers since this is how I play barre; and ii) sometimes no matter how much pressure I apply and how I put my index finger, the 3rd string is buzzing. Long time since I haven't payed attention to this actually, and I don't have my guitar here now to try it out.

Anyhow, a while ago I read a text from some classical guy (maybe I can find it and upload when I get to my computer), where he was saying that the way to play is to apply the pressure from the left arm towards the body, so no squeezing), while at the same time the right hand stops the guitar in moving forward which would create the pressure on guitar to play barre (I guess this is the third way). I tried and it did not work very well for me.

Cheers



himanshu.g -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 12 2017 3:41:27)

Also FWIW, in my experimentation I kind of realize that , for the "squeeze" part, applying pressure from the big thumb joint ( called the "CMC" joint in the pic below) instead of the "MCP" joint helps and that does not cause joint pain but some muscle fatigue only which could theoretically go away by practicing enough.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Filip -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Jan. 12 2017 20:37:38)

Thanks for this, I'll give it a try.

Cheers



Erik van Goch -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Feb. 26 2017 11:24:21)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dudnote

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik van Goch
So no matter how much you know in theory it all comes to practice practice practice.

Yes, with one caveat. You have to practice the good way and not the bad way. Not paying proper attention to muscular fatigue, discomfort or straining tendons and practicing with a gunho 'no pain no gain' attitude can rapidly become completely counter productive. Very important when pushing for greater endurance and dexterity with long barre sequences to know when to stop and work on some other technique.


Absolutely, if anyone is an ambassador of intelligent studying, natural biomechanics, proper relaxation and not overdoing things in even the slightest way it's me :-). With "practice practice practice" i just meant to say Rome wasn't build in a day and knowing the theory behind things does not replace years of (preferably intelligent) studying to explore, (re)tune and exercise both your body and brain.



Erik van Goch -> RE: Barre chords technique and conflicting opinions (Feb. 26 2017 12:09:27)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cervantes

This technique is explained in this video which I found very helpful. My barre chords are much better than they used to be and I attribute to applying pressure in the right places.




Great video. The attention to placement (4:48) is very important as well (it seems to contradict my "the index falls as it falls" but it doesn't since obviously a keen eye/ear for this kind of fine tuning always has to be part of ones playing strategy).



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