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KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

Real Men 




This is how real men play guitar. None of that new age jazzy sounding stuff. That's for pussies!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 25 2016 6:03:26
 
rombsix

Posts: 7607
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Real Men (in reply to KMMI77

quote:

This is how real men play guitar. None of that new age jazzy sounding stuff. That's for pussies!


I'm sorry to see you dissing the more modern-sounding players. I'm sure that they can play with just the same level of soniquete and earthy feel as Paco del Gastor, but they choose to take their flamenco in a different direction. It's pretty obvious that the more harmonic composers like Antonio Rey or José Manuel Leon can dig in and provide just the same guttural feel that Paco del Gastor provides, but I wonder whether the latter can devise material that has harmonies that are as advanced as some of the more "jazzy" sounding maestros. Just because one adopts a different style does not make one's playing pussy-like in nature.

Real men? Knowing that we have fantastic tocaoras like Laura Gonzalez, you still pull rubbish like this?

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 25 2016 13:36:07
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1895
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Real Men (in reply to rombsix

quote:

I'm sure that they can play with just the same level of soniquete and earthy feel as Paco del Gastor


Really? Just listened to Manuel Valencia accompanying Jesús Mendez, sobrino de La Paquera in Jueves Flamenco and it was horrible. Endless silly falsetas which had nothing to do with the cante. A guitarrist has to know how to accompany el cante, antes de todo.

How many times have you heard cante en directo with a variety of tocaores? The majority want to be concertistas and play long falsetas while the cantaor goes to sleep.

Last night, I went to see Ye Ye de Cádiz, accompanied by El Niño de la Leo. Usually, when Joaquín plays I do not go, because I cannot bear his long and horrible falsetas.

But Ye Ye is a real cantaor, de Cádiz but formed in the tablaos de Madrid. He knows that the cantaor should dominate the tocaor if there is no mutual feeling. So Joaquín abandonded his stupid falsetas and played only rhythm, apart from his trademake alzapúa.

A great night, thanks to a gran cantaor, who knew how to dominate a mediocre tocaor.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 25 2016 14:59:56
 
mt1007

Posts: 148
Joined: Jan. 19 2011
 

RE: Real Men (in reply to KMMI77

real man, modern and dominating que mas quieren....


  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 25 2016 18:06:12
 
Piwin

Posts: 3376
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Real Men (in reply to KMMI77

At some point someone's going to have to get it over with and shoot a flamenco porn movie.
"Ooooo! Your toque is soooo biiigggg!"
"toma que toma!"
etc.

When you think of it, all us guitarists are pussies, sitting on our rear-ends trying to make art and taking care of our nails while the real men are roaming the forests looking for grizzly bears to kill with their bare hands.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 25 2016 18:36:11
 
rombsix

Posts: 7607
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Real Men (in reply to Piwin

quote:

grizzly bears to kill with their bare hands.


That can't be good for the nails.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 25 2016 18:41:02
 
Piwin

Posts: 3376
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Real Men (in reply to rombsix

quote:

That can't be good for the nails.




OK, maybe we can skip the grizzly bears and just ride around on a horse with our clothes off, Putin-style?

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 25 2016 18:44:50
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Real Men (in reply to Piwin

quote:

OK, maybe we can skip the grizzly bears
No fighting with grizzly bears is good for your nails ..after the first few are torn off they come back strong ...I fight one or two bears in the early afternoon , .....then tremolo practice ....



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 25 2016 20:51:58
 
Piwin

Posts: 3376
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Real Men (in reply to El Kiko

I chew bees lol

Brad Pitt was such a pussy at the end of Legends of the Fall. Getting killed by a grizzly 'n all.



He clearly didn't have the cojones to play flamenco guitar.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 25 2016 21:01:38
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2955
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Real Men (in reply to KMMI77

Hey good to see you back KMMI! If you want to see how real men play, check out Rafael Cortes

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Andy Culpepper, luthier
http://www.andyculpepper.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 26 2016 0:09:11
 
RTC

Posts: 667
Joined: Aug. 20 2008
From: DFW Area, Texas

RE: Real Men (in reply to KMMI77

Love that!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 26 2016 2:08:45
 
KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Real Men (in reply to KMMI77

Thanks andy!

How about that cante? I wouldn't mind giving it a try. Now does that start on beat 11 or 12?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 26 2016 9:40:31
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3324
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Real Men (in reply to Piwin

quote:

When you think of it, all us guitarists are pussies, sitting on our rear-ends trying to make art and taking care of our nails


speak for yourself, am I the only one here who's day job involves felling trees with chain saws and handling semi-wild horses?!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 26 2016 9:46:16
 
mark indigo

 

Posts: 3324
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
 

RE: Real Men (in reply to El Kiko

quote:

No fighting with grizzly bears is good for your nails ..after the first few are torn off they come back strong ...I fight one or two bears in the early afternoon , .....then tremolo practice ....



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 26 2016 9:49:08
 
Piwin

Posts: 3376
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Real Men (in reply to mark indigo

Real men don't fell trees with chainsaws. They rip them out of the ground bare handed and use them as toothpicks. (you know, coz they've been chewing bees)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 26 2016 10:03:21
 
rombsix

Posts: 7607
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Real Men (in reply to KMMI77

quote:

How about that cante? I wouldn't mind giving it a try. Now does that start on beat 11 or 12?


Come on, man - you ought to know better. It's not about the counting. It's about the feeling.

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 26 2016 11:27:12
 
KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Real Men (in reply to KMMI77

Great point Ramzi! I'm sure others would agree?

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 26 2016 12:29:22
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13290
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Real Men (in reply to KMMI77

Joking aside, I would say Paco was not feeling the mic hot enough and doing things like pulgar falseta with picado and super aggressive wrist rasgueado. At least that is how I would play too if I can't hear myself. The singer starts between 1 and 2 obviously.

About cantaor dominating the guitar, sure sometimes it's that if it he or she doesn't feel supported, in other cases it's just plain rude stage behavior.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 26 2016 15:10:43
 
chester

Posts: 842
Joined: Oct. 29 2010
 

RE: Real Men (in reply to KMMI77

Wow KMMI77 -- haven't seen you on here for a while!
I always enjoyed your recordings -- are you still playing? Do you have any new material you can share here?

  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 26 2016 15:35:49
 
KMMI77

Posts: 1821
Joined: Jul. 26 2009
From: The land down under

RE: Real Men (in reply to KMMI77

Hi Ricardo and Chester

My computer died a few years ago. Around the same time, I moved in with my partner who never owned a computer. I decided it would be nice to have a break from the internet world for a while, And decided against buying a new one. I didn't expect to do without one for coming up on 4 years, ha ha

I had a cheap 3g phone , so I still checked the foro, but posting with it was painful. Recently a guitar student swapped me a computer for some lessons so I can finally record audio and video again. After a long break, It will be fun to record.

I have been playing guitar everyday as always.

BTW, My next project is to transfer all my dads old vhs cassettes. There is about 30 3 hour tapes to go through. That's where i found this Paco del Gastor vid. It goes for a couple of hours. I am finding it inspiring to re watch the videos that inspired me in the first place. I watch them from a different view point now which is interesting.

Nice to hear from you guys as well!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 27 2016 0:08:55
 
methionine

 

Posts: 13
Joined: Aug. 27 2016
 

RE: Real Men (in reply to KMMI77

When you say jazzy sounding stuff what works are you referring too?

There is a lot of "smooth jazz" sounding stuff that I would agree with you on.

Gerardo Nunez, Tomatito, and Nino Josele, all come to mind. Although I respect all highly, they have out out some stuff that has been hard for me to listen to. This exists in the realm of "jazz" as well. I wish <i>more<i> flamenco guitarists would take some influence from certain jazz composition, like Kurt Rosenwinkel or Brad Mehldau. Not this smooth sounding mierda like Kenny G or George Benson that seems to invade the phasing of even some of flamencos most beloved artists.

That being said, I thought that Enrique Morentes album "Lorca" had some great jazz type phrasing. Some of Adam del Montes work as well.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 27 2016 2:14:24
 
Morante

 

Posts: 1895
Joined: Nov. 21 2010
 

RE: Real Men (in reply to Ricardo

quote:

About cantaor dominating the guitar, sure sometimes it's that if it he or she doesn't feel supported, in other cases it's just plain rude stage behavior.


Ricardo, you know that I have great respect for you, but I have seen so many examples recently of guitarists who want to play concerts and never give a llamado. This plain rude behavior is of the guitarist and has to lead to the cantaor cutting in (a compás) on the "tocaor".

The most surprising example I have seen recently was José Mercé with Diego de Morao.

Felipe Scapachini told me that it took him 2 years to teach his current tocaor to accompany correctly. (Previously Adriano had made a solo CD of concert playing).

I know that this foro is guitar centred, but I think that the current lionising of guitarists is leading to a lack of tocaores with a deep knowledge of the cante.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 27 2016 15:20:33
 
Mark2

Posts: 1692
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Real Men (in reply to methionine

George Benson? Most professional flamenco guitarists wish they were half the musician he is. He can play for dance too:
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 27 2016 16:15:22
 
Ricardo

Posts: 13290
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Real Men (in reply to Morante

quote:

The most surprising example I have seen recently was José Mercé with Diego de Morao.


I believe I saw the same with Torta and Diego a few years back. I consider it rude behavior like "kid, you are nothing like your dad F your stupid falseta....".. That's how it looks to me anyway. I admit that there are many that don't support the singers as good as the old days of course. In that Moraito tribute concert a few years back, the only one that felt really good to me was Juan Diego. But at the end of the day, if they have things to learn and improve on it is important for the singers and any others to try to point it out to the young players....but singing over top of a falseta before it's done on stage to prove a point about hierarchy or seniority or any other reason is just rude IMO.

Ricardo

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 27 2016 16:59:09
 
rombsix

Posts: 7607
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Real Men (in reply to Morante

quote:

The most surprising example I have seen recently was José Mercé with Diego de Morao.


Post some YouTube links of this phenomenon, and point out the times so we can see (not necessarily these two artists).

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Ramzi

http://www.youtube.com/rombsix
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 27 2016 17:02:26
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Real Men (in reply to Mark2

i actually thought of that too when I saw his name come up ... I think he meant after he sold out to the money side of love songs and left his virtuosity behined

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 27 2016 17:50:08
 
Mark2

Posts: 1692
Joined: Jul. 12 2004
From: San Francisco

RE: Real Men (in reply to KMMI77

Except even the Breezin record was full of chops......after that I'm not familiar with his work, but have no doubt he's still got the stuff. Ever hear the "Bad Benson" album"?
Guy is a monster.

As to guitarists and singers, it's interesting that in other styles the singer is also king. Nobody cares who is playing guitar for Elton John. But how often does a flamenco singer tour the US? Not too often(ever?) cause they can't sell tickets in the US or likely, many other countries. So VA, who can sell them, brings a great singer and tells HIM when to sing. Uh, do these choros and two minutes of bulerias, then shut up. Flips the script on him. Then the dancer steals the show. Ironic.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 27 2016 18:04:33
 
Piwin

Posts: 3376
Joined: Feb. 9 2016
 

RE: Real Men (in reply to Morante

About a month ago, during a juerga, I was filling in on the cajon when one of the singers literally pushed me off the instrument, grunting "tu no sabe", and started playing himself. The guitarist and singer, who had asked me to play, both stopped mid bulerias, and a heated argument ensued between pretty much everyone there, while I went out for some fresh air not wanting to have to deal with that sadly too common aspect of flamenco. It's sadly an offshoot of this "real men" mentality. Some stupid need to dominate, to show you have big balls or whatever.

I have made more than my share of mistakes accompanying, and still do. All of them the result of ignorance or just plain misunderstanding on the cues I'm getting (or not) from the singer. I'm always grateful to those who try to lead by cooperation, who will nudge you in the right direction if they feel you're doing something wrong. At least with them I learn something, and I'm sure not to repeat the same mistake next time. Then again, I can't imagine what it's like to sing and have a guitarist willingly not following your lead. If he can't take a hint, maybe sometimes they really do have to cut in and there's probably some truth to what Morante was saying, about "lionising of guitarists". But then again, I've far too often been on the other side of that, where a simple glance would have done the trick, I would've got the point and adapted accordingly, but no, the singer had to go batshit crazy...

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"Anything you do can be fixed. What you cannot fix is the perfection of a blank page. What you cannot fix is that pristine, unsullied whiteness of a screen or a page with nothing on it—because there’s nothing there to fix."
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 27 2016 18:27:04
 
BarkellWH

Posts: 3300
Joined: Jul. 12 2009
From: Washington, DC

RE: Real Men (in reply to Piwin

quote:

It's sadly an offshoot of this "real men" mentality. Some stupid need to dominate, to show you have big balls or whatever.


Not to derail this thread from flamenco, but a variation of this "real men" mentality are those jerks who show up at Donald Trump rallies with automatic weapons hanging down over their butts to show that "real men" carry guns to defend against the "Guv'ment," which to them is the enemy. Likewise the idiots who practice "survival" training in preparation for the showdown with the Guv'ment, the UN, or whoever the "enemy du Jour" happens to be. Real Men indeed.

Bill

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And the end of the fight is a tombstone white,
With the name of the late deceased,
And the epitaph drear, "A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East."

--Rudyard Kipling
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 27 2016 19:09:24
 
El Kiko

Posts: 2697
Joined: Jun. 7 2010
From: The South Ireland

RE: Real Men (in reply to Piwin

yep...it gets worse than that , when you all sorted out with your ,, Alegrias , for example . until you go with a dancer then ..."tu no sabe"...so its resorted then another dancer in another area ..."tu no sabe"...
then a singer of Alegrias ..."tu no sabe"...
then you play a solo thing ...the same **** Alegrias as always ... and big applause ... "Vaya ..El sabe "...
another singer then ...."tu no sabe"..
.
.
I need a Homer Simpson "D'Oh " here.....

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Don't trust Atoms.....they make up everything.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 27 2016 19:14:46
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