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Tuner barrels with sealed ball bearing end, any good?   You are logged in as Guest
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pundi64

Posts: 234
Joined: Jul. 29 2016
From: Thailand

Tuner barrels with sealed ball beari... 

There is a company out there making machine tuners for Classical - Flamenco guitars
using a barrel with a sealed ball bearing end, they state these are of 0% friction,
anyone seen or tried these, sounds good, but would like to hear your thoughts on them.
.I think these are called Moudflon barrels









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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 10 2016 9:17:49
 
Kiko_Roca

Posts: 82
Joined: Apr. 25 2016
From: Midwest, USA

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to pundi64

If they were 0% friction you wouldn't be able to keep any tension on your strings. Sounds like a gimmicky product to me based on how you say they are advertising.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 11 2016 16:05:19
 
Richard Jernigan

Posts: 3155
Joined: Jan. 20 2004
From: Austin, Texas USA

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to pundi64

Some of the better brands have rollers like this. In my experience what keeps the tension on the strings is the worm gear mechanism. The ones with the roller barrels ought to work OK if they are decent quality. I've never tried them because the ones without roller barrels have worked fine for me on a variety of guitars.

RNJ
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 11 2016 17:15:20
 
Tom Blackshear

 

Posts: 2266
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
 

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to Kiko_Roca

quote:

If they were 0% friction you wouldn't be able to keep any tension on your strings. Sounds like a gimmicky product to me based on how you say they are advertising.


The roller will have resistance regardless of any bearing to ease tension. I can see that the bearing would ease wear on the cog turner. So i wouldn't consider this to be a gimmick.

String tension is what it is but it's reasonable to believe that the bearing would ease the tension against the cog. So, any releasing of stress against the tuning mechanism should improve the life of the tuning machine.

Then again, how a gimmick is concerned, can be a viable way to advertise a new idea, so using a gimmick is not necessarily a bad idea. It all depends on how it's looked at.

So any new idea could be considered a gimmick without further consideration of its value.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 12 2016 11:55:04
 
Kiko_Roca

Posts: 82
Joined: Apr. 25 2016
From: Midwest, USA

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to Tom Blackshear

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tom Blackshear

So any new idea could be considered a gimmick without further consideration of its value.


I couldn't view the brand at the time I responded, just what Pundi64 posted in his OP about 0% friction which is silly unless we're dealing with something like this:
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2012/oct/18/negative-friction-surprises-researchers.

As far as gimicky considerations go, My opinion is that if someone is going to try to sell a product with some sort of science angle, that science should be sound.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 12 2016 18:28:08
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
Joined: Jan. 17 2005
 

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to pundi64

I'd be much more concerned about the apparent poor plating job on the worm. Of course it could be that the plating on the gear is rubbing off on the worm or the plating on the worm is simply coming off with use. I don't understand why this issue is so complicated, it strikes me as a relatively simple machining job. Build it like a Skill worm drive power saw and it will work longer than the player lives!

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Aug. 12 2016 23:31:59
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to pundi64

I have used these very same Rubners on a few guitars and they work great. The point is that the sealed bearing is larger in diameter by a fraction that the actual roller. The bearing rides on the wood inside the drill hole in the head of the guitar and the roller rides free.

It's not a gimmick, it is a way some clever Germans decided to solve a problem of friction of roller against wood. Is it really a problem? Maybe not, but the sealed bearing sure does roll nice and smooth! The gear end of the assembly is top class, and the machining is high quality. These are nice precision instruments at a very reasonable price. I pay about $160.00 per set of the regular tuners and up to $250.0 for fancier models. My next order being built right now will go out with these tuners as per the request of the customer.

This is good quality gear and a good value. Do regular tuners do a good job if they are made well? Yes they do. I've found a brand of tuners made in Taiwan for about $35.00 which match the quality of the Gotoh tuners in the $150.00 price range. I use them liberally. These Rubners in my estimation compare to Alessi and other high brow tuner brands at less than half the cost. If quality and cost is important to your customer these are fine tuners on par with high end brands. If they have money to spend on $500-600 tuners by all means get them. In the end it's the skill with which they are installed that really counts.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2016 11:26:13
 
benros

 

Posts: 144
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RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to pundi64

hey stephen, what tawain made tuners are you talking about?
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2016 14:04:29
 
Echi

 

Posts: 949
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to pundi64

I agree they are as smooth and solid as many top brands tuning machines (including Alessi, Scheller etc.) and quite precisely made.
Nonetheless they are not the same both as aesthetic and quality of the materials (buttons, aluminium holder for the cilinders etc. ).
Of course these are just fancy things for many.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2016 18:21:07
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to Echi

quote:

I agree they are as smooth and solid as many top brands tuning machines (including Alessi, Scheller etc.) and quite precisely made.
Nonetheless they are not the same both as aesthetic and quality of the materials (buttons, aluminium holder for the cilinders etc. ).
Of course these are just fancy things for many.


Rubbish. They are aesthetically pleasing, well designed and compete with any top tuners in style and material.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2016 22:38:39
 
jshelton5040

Posts: 1500
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RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to benros

quote:

ORIGINAL: benros

hey stephen, what tawain made tuners are you talking about?

Not to speak for Estebanana but I suspect the tuners from Taiwan are "Der Jung". We've been using them for several years and agree with that they are comparable to Gotoh.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2016 22:49:45
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to pundi64

If you are a player and considering swapping out your tuners, Rubner is one of the companies to check out. They give a 5 year warranty, the sets available come in three main price ranges- under $100.00 - $160.00 - $260.00 and custom orders can be higher.

The workmanship compares with any top brands, Sloane is a good comparison in the above $160 price range- in some cases the quality is better than other name brands in the under $100.00 range.

The hot tip on Rubers is to watch the website for classical guitar models they are phasing out. They have sales on those models. The gears and rollers they make will fit on all the side plates so if the machinery needs to be replaced the warranty is good, but if price is a consideration the sale items can be a good value.

Rubner is a good company and I support them. Rubner is one of the makers of tuners I encourage customers to look at when we are choosing tuners for a custom guitar.



http://www.rubnertuners.com

http://www.rubnertuners.com/data-dimensions/

http://www.rubnertuners.com/hauser-style-for-guitar/rubner-artisan-ebony-hauser-with-rubner-roll

http://www.rubnertuners.com/hauser-style-for-guitar/

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2016 23:08:28
 
estebanana

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RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to pundi64

I use this model which can be found with a few dealers on eBay. The tuners are great at any price range under $160.00 to $100 just don't think anything is significantly better at that price point. They are on par with Gotoh in that price range, but not name brand.

One or two of the Foro members who are players were talking about them so I ordered a set a few years ago and found them to be quite nice. I like them for flamenco guitars because they are on the light weight side.

I buy two pair at a time, or more, and that is the warranty system, one breaks down, change it. Although that has not happened. It's nice to know you have a back up set. I get them from LueezGuitars on eBay.

The shipping from Taiwan is not bad either.

http://stores.ebay.com/LueezGuitar/G-Tuner-machinehead-/_i.html?rt=nc&_fsub=21029903018&_sid=42458688&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1581&_pgn=2



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 6 2016 23:32:13
 
Andy Culpepper

Posts: 2953
Joined: Mar. 30 2009
From: NY, USA

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to pundi64

Rubner makes a really nice, varied line of products and there is something good at every price level. I really like the ones with Rosewood buttons, especially on a negra. If care is taken by the luthier then regular barrels will turn with minimal friction, but the bearing ends definitely help.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2016 0:10:53
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to pundi64

Some of yous guys are confused about barrels. This is a four barrel carbeeratoor. Don't put this on yer guitar.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2016 1:05:04
 
Echi

 

Posts: 949
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

quote:

I agree they are as smooth and solid as many top brands tuning machines (including Alessi, Scheller etc.) and quite precisely made.
Nonetheless they are not the same both as aesthetic and quality of the materials (buttons, aluminium holder for the cilinders etc. ).
Of course these are just fancy things for many.


Rubbish. They are aesthetically pleasing, well designed and compete with any top tuners in style and material.


Rubbish doesn't sound good to me.
Given they are good tuners for the money, it's your matter if you don't get the difference on the aesthetics and materials.

Let us speak of their target, the medium/low price range:
The incision on the plate is poor (thick, machine made, and just 1 dimension) as it is the design: not comparable at all with the design and execution of Alessi, Fustero etc.
These tuners seem to me as they have been studied by the same designers of Playmobil: the buttons are are too big and squared on the standard version, and not nicely dimensioned on the oval option. The porcupine shape is far from the Rodgers' version since the first glance and look quite pretentious in the case. I repeat: I'm speaking of the low price range.
The gear is small and not eye pleasing (the rope motif on top of the gear make it too high), the barrel has a Teflon holder just on the top model, while Alessi uses aluminium, and I could go ahead..

When you go up with the price, the quality of the incisions and materials goes up too.

In this case what they offer is comparable with other competitors, but also the price is.
At the same price I like more Alessi, MeM or Exagon.
Anyway, for some people these are just rubbish, for others are important aesthetic details.
To each one, theirs.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2016 7:16:33
 
benros

 

Posts: 144
Joined: Aug. 27 2016
 

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to pundi64

thanks stephen,

that are exactly the tuners i used for two of my guitars. the brandname is 'Der Jung'. You can buy them with different kind of knobs and rollers, also a version with bearing ends. i have them with ebony knobs and black aluminium rollers with bearings (which probably makes them heavier). i think the design is a alessi copy (the hole product line of Der Jung seem to be copies of other brand
models). im just waiting that they bring out another elegant hauser design without the spare outs around the screwholes.

rubners are good (mechanically the cheapest are either good as the most expensive) but i dont like their aesthetics (the plates are to thick and the finish and engravings look so cheap, boring).
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2016 7:34:34
 
krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to Echi

Well there is no accounting for taste is there?

We all like different things, which is good imo.

I've used Rubners for about 10 years with no problems. They are good quality and exceptional value. For less than a 100 Euros i can get a good choice of plates and buttons.
Recommended

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2016 9:24:11
 
pundi64

Posts: 234
Joined: Jul. 29 2016
From: Thailand

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to pundi64

Got a set of Rubners, with the low friction setup



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2016 9:57:36
 
Echi

 

Posts: 949
Joined: Jan. 11 2013
 

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to pundi64

The new gear is anyway nicer than before.
Here is a picture of the older premium type I had, which I was referring to in my post and which I don't like.



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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2016 10:58:42
 
SephardRick

Posts: 357
Joined: Apr. 11 2014
 

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to estebanana

quote:

Some of yous guys are confused about barrels. This is a four barrel carbeeratoor. Don't put this on yer guitar.


Those Holley's were temperamental too, as seen in the Lee Marvin film "Pocket Money".

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Rick
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2016 14:30:04
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1496
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to pundi64

There are several companies doing this. I have used the Gotoh and Sloane brands. I think both are good but the Sloane is a little better. And more expensive.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 7 2016 17:28:18
 
estebanana

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RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to pundi64

The thing about aesthetics, is most people don't know what it means, it's a problem.

In the West in mechanical design aesthetics boils down to three things: German cars, Italian cars and English cars. Each type of car, which is the stand in for whatever design product you are looking at, has it's own set of parameters of aesthetic. Cross comparisons to down grade one or below the other two, or hold one car up as superior, are false aesthetic judgments.

German cars are boxy, practical, precise, modular and often over built a ugly, but mechanically tenacious.

Italian cars are sexy, one off by model, often garish or brash, impractical for daily use, powerful fast, and have the greatest potential to raise your social status.

English cars are eccentric, have beautiful crooked teeth, are more complicated than need be, are both a mechanics dream and nightmare, and feature good leather and drive like finest hand made pair of John Lobb Shoes.

Each design archetype is a complete self contained world of aesthetic value, cross comparisons between Jaguar and Ferrari is meaningless. Mercedes and MG, a non issue, all mechanical design aesthetic is self referential between establish brands and schools of design. Bauhaus design and American Regionalist painting, both movements from the early 1930s don't compete aesthetically, they coexist and are self referential in relation to one another.

One does simply walk into Mordor, nor does one compare Milanese high heels to Lobb boots. You just don't, if you understand aesthetic value systems vis a vis professional application of using the product as a pre-made utilitarian component in the fabrication and function or your own work. You make choices based on function vs. value vs. customer interest. One has to put down the snob appeal of cross referencing BMW's to Alfa Romeos to Audi's.

You're either German, English or Italian, period.

Swedes and Spanish cars don't count- Swedish cars think they are Cessnas with wheels, Spanish cars only want to be driven by Picasso and are intolerant of being cars. The French are good at designing weather balloons and use them liberally in the suspension systems of Citroens.

You guys are getting these lessons free, I'm not dong this for my health. I take credit cards and Paypal if anyone one to pony up and pay tuition for these valuable lessons in aesthetics.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2016 5:27:26
 
ChrisRL

 

Posts: 6
Joined: Sep. 8 2016
 

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to pundi64

Rubners are great.
Have used them on six guitars and counting, no problems thus far.

The frictionless part of the system isn't between the gears of the machine head and the barrel, so one respondant's reply that the tuners wouldn't keep friction is erroneous.

The friction part is between the radial gear of the barrel and the worm gear of the tuner knob assembly. The "friction" isn't actually friction but a function of the mechanical advantage/disadvantage between the two surfaces in contact. On the Rubners, this seems as solid as they come.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 8 2016 20:11:27
 
constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1496
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to ChrisRL

Thanks for mentioning Rubners, guys. I hadn't heard of them before and they seem like a bargain compared to Sloane and Gotoh. I just ordered some.

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www.facebook.com/ethandeutschguitars
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 9 2016 14:02:54
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to pundi64

I wanted to take a closer look at the Rubners for the advantage of those makers who have not yet tried them and for those players who might try them as tuners in the future. And for those missile scientists and political mechanics.

Here is the barrel assembly kind of exlpoded-

Next to the plate is a nylon bushing that fits over the internal barrel shaft. It spins on the shaft, but when barrel is assembled it is tight, unless you ease off the screw on top of the gear on the outside of the tuner. The bushing rides in the barrel hole as part of the roller, basically and it may or may not spin as it engages with friction against the inside of the roller hole. If it is hits the roller hole due to any tension, which should not happen on well installed tuners, the shaft of the barrel/ roller can still spin freely inside the bushing as the the bushing is independent of the string roller and shaft. It just spins away as a greasy feeling piece of nylon does.

The other side of the roller with the sealed bearing rides in the interior side of the tuner barrel hole. And as I mentioned before the sealed bearing is a fraction larger than the string roller itself, so the roller ideally should not touch the roller barrel hole, but be held up by the bearing and the bushing that are mounted on either side of it. Ideally.

There is friction involved, but the design has worked to mitigate friction, but it is far from being a literal frictionless system. That would probably involve electro magnets and jet packs.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2016 0:54:55
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
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RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to pundi64

On the outside the worm gear is suspended between more nylon washers on the grip shaft where the grip shaft is connected to the plate.

The gear also spins on top of a nylon washer and the tension can be adjusted with the screw on top of the gear. I find that loosening the factory snugness and then rescrewing it frees the whole assembly, and then tightens it back together. But that's just me, you don't have to do that, although it's been my observation the bushing on the roller shaft frees up much more after spinning it manually a few times.

The nylon and the design is friction mitigation, calling these "friction-less" I think is misnomer, but how is a marketing guy going to explain all this, and Friction Mitigation system is not as sexy as FRICTIONLESS!

We all want less friction.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Just a few quick measurements- I compared the Rubners to the Der Jung tuners, I don't have any Sloane, Alessi or Gotoh on hand at the moment:

Plate thickness:

DJ- 1.55 mm

Rubner- 1.44 mm

These seem like reasonable plate thicknesses and if anyone cares to measure any other brands to establish a compendium of plates vs. weight for comparison purpose please measure those plates.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Grams per individual tuner set, one side weighs:

DJ- 78 grams

Rubner 81 grams
__________________________________________


These measurements seem reasonable for flamenco guitar use. The design and the style and the threshold for fit and finish is all high standard and consistent. To me personally the worst tuners are Gilbert, they function they are light, but they look like military hardware, guitars are supposed to be poets tools not assassins weapons. Some tuners like Schallers, they look 'chintzy' like fake jewelry worn by a lower echelon mobsters wife in a B grade good fellas movie. To my mind, if you have a combination of function, quality and the tuners don't look like they should be fired from a bazooka then they are probably suitable to use on a flamenco guitar. Some of the Rubner designs on the cosmetic level don't appeal to me, they look a little too Jersey Shore and might make better baubles for Snooky's ears than as side plates on one of my babies. So this is where personal taste comes in and the challenge is in choosing functional yet non ostentatious plates and grips.





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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2016 1:23:03
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to pundi64

Oh and the touch of class is that Rubners can be had with different choices of real wood grips, and that all these nylon parts and roller colors can be swapped out for personalization or replacement.

So to make an ellipse back to the OP posters question, I like the tuners,good product good value. The friction less name is more of a marketing pitch.

The thing at issue not the mechanisms ability to keep from letting the string unravel, but the ability to hold mechanical tension in a condition of the least amount of operating friction possible. It's the gearing system, an ancient one, that mechanically holds a winch or rope over a shaft so to can't unwind. Tuner designers are solving for that crankshaft to be a smooth and easy to turn as possible with a set of design criteria that includes size, weight, and gear ratio, etc.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To go further into why this kind of gearing system is used on guitar tuners, check out this Wikipedia entry on worm gearing:

"Direction of transmission[edit]
Unlike with ordinary gear trains, the direction of transmission (input shaft vs output shaft) is not reversible when using large reduction ratios, due to the greater friction involved between the worm and worm-wheel, when usually a single start (one spiral) worm is used. This can be an advantage when it is desired to eliminate any possibility of the output driving the input. If a multistart worm (multiple spirals) is used then the ratio reduces accordingly and the braking effect of a worm and worm-gear may need to be discounted, as the gear may be able to drive the worm.

Worm gear configurations in which the gear cannot drive the worm are called self-locking. Whether a worm and gear is self-locking depends on the lead angle, the pressure angle, and the coefficient of friction."
______________________________________________________________________________________


The paragraph gives a bit of gear nomenclature that is useful- A guitar worm gear system is a 'self-locking' mechanical system. The reason this works is due to friction, tuners are designed to have the correct lead angle on the gear, etc. so the coefficient of friction is correct to keep the mechanism from allowing the 'input' the tuner grip and shaft, from being driven by the 'output' the string roller.

The friction coefficient of the gearing is stopping the string tension from unrolling the roller; guitar tuning machines operate due to friction. So here is the confusion. When the designers say "frictionless" they are trying to make the system work as effortlessly as possible without the user experiencing the actual friction coefficient that makes the tuner work in the first place. Which is why the work gear system on a Skil Saw won't work in practice unless is it modified to become a system that is a "one way drive" that uses a gear to reduce the turning ratio and increase the friction at one end of the system- if you reverse the polarity on a skill saw, it will run backward at the same speed it runs forward. You can also manually move the blade, unplug the saw first please, back an forth a spin it either direction. The Skil saw work system is an example of a gearing that can be driven equally on input or output end. The Skil saw tuner would allow the string to unwind,but serves a a good example of a worm gearing that is not designed with a friction coefficient that is 'one way'.

Think about that next time you tune your guitar and you'll begin to get an idea of why guitarmakers are all nuts.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2016 1:30:18
 
timoteo

 

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From: Seattle, USA

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to estebanana

Thanks for the details estebanana. I have pegs on my guitar, so this is the closest I've come to seeing the workings of machines ... I've always thought they ALL seem way too expensive, being simple worm gear mechanisms. You can buy high quality worm gear sets in very low quantities for a few dollars each (even fancy anti-backlash gears, which are a step up from anything I've seen used on guitars), so hundreds of dollars for a set of tuners seems way out of line.

quote:

Next to the plate is a nylon bushing that fits over the internal barrel shaft.


Are you sure it's not PTFE (teflon)? That would make more sense than nylon as it would only be a few cents more to make and would have significantly less friction.

quote:

The nylon and the design is friction mitigation, calling these "friction-less" I think is misnomer,


Yeah, it was only the original poster who said "0% friction" - but note that the image he posted from the manufacturer simply claims "low friction", which is true. I don't know why kiko_roca jumped on the 0% claim because it's 1) not the manufacturer who's claiming that and b) probably just the OP's command of English that caused him to phrase it that way.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2016 3:41:25
 
estebanana

Posts: 8324
Joined: Oct. 16 2009
 

RE: Tuner barrels with sealed ball b... (in reply to timoteo

quote:

Are you sure it's not PTFE (teflon)? That would make more sense than nylon as it would only be a few cents more to make and would have significantly less friction.



___________________________________________________________

Yeah, it was only the original poster who said "0% friction" - but note that the image he posted from the manufacturer simply claims "low friction", which is true. I don't know why kiko_roca jumped on the 0% claim because it's 1) not the manufacturer who's claiming that and b) probably just the OP's command of English that caused him to phrase it that way.


Could very well be PTFE, nylon or Delrin, I said it seems like nylon and there are a few kinds of nylon, whatever it is Rubner parts are interchangeable.

The reason I went into it is to be clear on the meaning of friction in this case. So now we all know worm gears work because the reduction ratio, the cut of the gear, that angle of the cut - all that stuff adds up to a kind of friction that prevents the gear from running backwards and unraveling the guitar string.

Friction is our friend to keep the string from unwinding, but not so much our buddy when the tuners run rough due to friction jamming them up. Friction creates the wonder of the self stopping gear system, but we might feel too much friction in a tuner that is not well designed. Rubner and a few other makers are going after that by padding out the attachment areas and surfaces with these Teflon or nylon bushings and washers. And also by making the gear and worm have a great mechanical fit.

Two main ways to mitigate the friction coefficient for the guitar player is to do what Rubner does, make a good fitting gear and supplement that with slippery bushings and washers. It takes up the slop space and "lubricates" the moving surfaces.

The second way to achieve friction mitigation in a mechanical system is to 'Swiss watch' the system, meaning precision cut and fit the parts so perfectly and on such a high level of accuracy that it roll like angels titties.

Angels Titties degree of smooth costs too much for a consumer product like a car or a set of guitar tuners, so they fudge and mitigate friction with something hard and slippery.

There's a joke in there somewhere.
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The other thing that has to be diad it there can be tension and friction and negative torque / twisting effects tuner that is not installed into headstock holes that are bored out of true in any one direction. That is a whole other subject concerning the creation of difficulty with tuners.

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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date Sep. 10 2016 4:12:31
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